Palestine and Israel

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

War is a shocking waste of human life and no matter how u dress it up and try and justify it most of the time it's unjustifiable.

Most of the time maybe....but some of the time yes.
Maybe Iraq was one of those "some of the times"?
I'm glad the US and Australia and the other allies did not take that risk.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Most of the time maybe....but some of the time yes.
Maybe Iraq was one of those "some of the times"?
I'm glad the US and Australia and the other allies did not take that risk.

Actually the US (and Australia) has made global terrorism worse by creating a new breeding ground for terrorists where none existed - Al Qaeda had no presence in Iraq prewar but they sure as hell have a big presence now, They have caused the price of oil to go up, not down. They have emboldened Iran who are making plays in the region. Iraq oil production is still down to less than half of what it was prewar. If that was "taking a risk", it was a risk that blew up in everyone's face. Everything they have done so far has made the situation in Iraq and the Middle East much much worse, not better, and that goes for the price of oil too.

It's nice for you to waffle on about the "strategic picture" (as if you really know anything about it) but claiming that the entire world knew the real reason for the Iraq invasion (apparently to deter Iran) but chose not to mention it is spin of an insane variety. It is so lunatic and mad fringe that it's absurd even to debate it. No matter which way you spin it Liverpool the Iraq war has been a disaster for all concerned. Howard is gone, Bush will be gone and will be remembered as the most blundering President ever. The Democrats will win the next Presidential election. Blair has gone with his reputation tarnished. Rumsfeld departed in disgrace. Condoleeza Rice probably won't be part of any future administration - a bright career ruined - the expert in Soviet politics totally failing to understand the different dynamics of the Middle East.

But in your mind the war has paid off as we would have been paying "$5 a litre" for petrol and Iran would have gone on a mad invasion spree despite no-one in the intelligence community, diplomatic community or global press ever considering either of these as possibilities. Interesting that you yourself have just woken up to this profound realisation even though the Iraq war and insurgency has been going on for what, six years now?

I don't even know why I try to engage you in rational discussion. It's a waste of time.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

On reflection I could have made the above post much shorter. Your argument comes down to this.

"Sure, Bush, Blair and everyone stuffed up the invasion really really badly , but a right wing loony somewhere thinks that things might have been even worse had they not. So everything's OK."

FFS.

 

[Six Pack]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

And after making the mistake we have to keep on making it again and again.

 

[jb03]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

It was a mistake to invade, but it is a mistake to run. I think the two arguments can co-exist.

 

[Harry]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Agree totally with Antman (except about keeping Ernie Merrick as coach).

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

antman is just ahead on points..



by about 1,000,000 to 1.

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

But in your mind the war has paid off as we would have been paying "$5 a litre" for petrol and Iran would have gone on a mad invasion spree despite no-one in the intelligence community, diplomatic community or global press ever considering either of these as possibilities. Interesting that you yourself have just woken up to this profound realisation even though the Iraq war and insurgency has been going on for what, six years now?

IF...and I say IF Iran had gone into Iraq before the Yanks, there is no doubt that fuel would be a lot higher than what it is now.
Maybe my $5 was a bit extreme, but you can't deny the fact that Iran, a country that has a hatred for Western and US ideals, would be delighted in having the upper hand in the Mid-East.
Hussein saw it...that is why he kept up his WMD charade.
The Yanks saw it....otherwise, why did they go in when they did, right when Iran was getting closer to their nuclear capabilities?
Lets be honest....since Desert Storm, the Yanks could have used WMDs as an excuse to go in there any time they wanted....but it was only when intelligence told them that Iran was propping up some factions in parts of Iraq, that Iran was looking at dealing with Turkey, and more importantly, that Iran was getting closer to nuclear capability that would override any hesitation about Husseins "WMD charade"....that the Yanks decided to move into Iraq themselves.

Actually the US (and Australia) has made global terrorism worse by creating a new breeding ground for terrorists where none existed - Al Qaeda had no presence in Iraq prewar but they sure as hell have a big presence now, They have caused the price of oil to go up, not down.

If Iran (or factions of al-Qaeda) moved into Iraq, then like I have said...oil (and fuel from the customer's end) would have gone up.
You have admitted yourself that al-Qaeda having a presence in Iraq has caused the price of oil to go up.
So you can imagine if Iran or al-Qaeda had even more control of Iraq than they have now, then the price would be even higher....maybe even $5 per litre, maybe?

 

[Harry]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

It was a war for oil and it's only a matter of time untill the yanks invade Iran when supplies start to run low. They'll (we'll) make up more stories about nuclear weapons, WMD's and the boogie man Bin Laden. Joe Public will then embrace and support the coalition of the willing with fists pumping in the air. We'll then shock and awe those pesky terrorists and liberate the children of Iran. We'll then capture their evil dictator (whatever his name is) and send him to a "fair" trial in our courts with our judges. We'll then hang the bastard on live TV and tell the world how they can now live in peace, almost, we just need to capture that elusive boogie man. Yeeeehaaaah !!!

 

[Tiger74]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

It was a mistake to invade, but it is a mistake to run. I think the two arguments can co-exist.

Spot on. Its no excuse to say "Saddam lied about WMD's", if US intel was as good as we are told it is, they should have known. This being said, this is the same intel org that didn't see the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union coming.

Iraq was a mistake because it wasn't needed at the time, and it diverted important resources from Afghanistan.

This being said, we have made our bed, and now we have to lie in it. We cannot leave 100% until a stable country is left behind.

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

I was in the city centre on Friday doing a bit of shopping before going to the Dome to see the Melbourne Victory game.....and what happens on the corner of Swanston/Bourke?

I get hassled by some "Stop Israel bombing Gaza" protesters.

Now, that all is all fine and dandy...but where have these *smile* been while Hamas have been sending rockets indiscrimanantly into Israel?
I can't remember being accosted by "Stop Hamas rocketing the *smile* out of Israel protesters".... ???

Come to think of it....I remember being hassled by "Stop the bloodshed in Iraq" protesters as well a while back when this was the anti-USA protests were the 'cool' thing to do....but I can't remember the same people protesting about stopping Hussein killing his own people, or protesting against Bin Laden and his fanatical band of Islam...?
Maybe not popular and cool enough to protest against terrorism....

Anyway, I politely told this bozo on Friday that I supported Israel for retaliating and if Israel have got any sense now, they have to keep going all the way and wipe Hamas out.
We've tried all the diplomatic rubbish...all the phoney ceasefires and treaties...and it has never worked and will never work.

 

[1eyedtiger]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

I was in the city centre on Friday doing a bit of shopping before going to the Dome to see the Melbourne Victory game.....and what happens on the corner of Swanston/Bourke?

I get hassled by some "Stop Israel bombing Gaza" protesters.

Now, that all is all fine and dandy...but where have these people been while Hamas have been sending rockets indiscrimanantly into Israel?
I can't remember being accosted by "Stop Hamas rocketing the sh!t out of Israel protesters".... ???

Come to think of it....I remember being hassled by "Stop the bloodshed in Iraq" protesters as well a while back when this was the anti-USA protests were the 'cool' thing to do....but I can't remember the same people protesting about stopping Hussein killing his own people, or protesting against Bin Laden and his fanatical band of Islam...?
Maybe not popular and cool enough to protest against terrorism....

Anyway, I politely told this bozo on Friday that I supported Israel for retaliating and if Israel have got any sense now, they have to keep going all the way and wipe Hamas out.
We've tried all the diplomatic rubbish...all the phoney ceasefires and treaties...and it has never worked and will never work.

I reckon that in Australia, we should be able to go about our business without being hassled by protesters protesting about issues that have nothing to do with Australia. If they want to protest, then go where the action is. These people came to Australia. If they feel so passionate about their old country, then go back.

Having said that, and without trying to add fuel to the Liverpool fire, I have to disagree with you about Israel. Ok, Hamas fires rockets into Israel, why? Maybe if Israel kept to it's own borders that were established when Israel was created, then there would be less problems. Instead, they keep trying to grab more and more land that doesn't belong to them. Look at this wall they are building. Is it on Israel' borders, NO. It is outside their borders where they have no right to be.

Of course, now they have their own country, why won't they agree to the formation of a Palistinian state, just like their own?

Which brings me back to my original point, if the Jewish have got their own country to live in and they feel so passionate about it, then go live there. Same goes with everyone else.

You might label me a anti-semitic but I'm sick of how who anyone who says anything against the jews is labelled as such. They are almost aboriginal in their quest to be eternal victims. I'm not going to defend Hitler. There's no excuse for what he did but for the jewish to now come and say they are going to anniliate another race is beyond belief. No, Hamas is not a race, but we all know what they really mean. They want the entire region to themselves.

Israel is as bad as Nazi Germany as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Freezer]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

I find it all very confusing - Israel, Palestine, Hamas, Gaza, Jews, anti-semites - stuffed if I know how they relate to each other. :-\

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

I reckon that in Australia, we should be able to go about our business without being hassled by protesters protesting about issues that have nothing to do with Australia. If they want to protest, then go where the action is. These people came to Australia. If they feel so passionate about their old country, then go back.

100% agree.... :clap

Having said that, and without trying to add fuel to the Liverpool fire, I have to disagree with you about Israel. Ok, Hamas fires rockets into Israel, why? Maybe if Israel kept to it's own borders that were established when Israel was created, then there would be less problems. Instead, they keep trying to grab more and more land that doesn't belong to them. Look at this wall they are building. Is it on Israel' borders, NO. It is outside their borders where they have no right to be.

The problem 1-eyed is that this isn't about land.
It's purely religion.
If it was as easy as just some land then I would be all for Israel sacrificing some land for the greater good in the region.
However, Hamas and supporters of Hamas (such as Iran) want Israel wiped off the map....simple as that.
You could give them half of Israel and the trouble would still continue.

"Israel is not a legitimate entity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006

"Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006

"Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
-Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, The Jerusalem Post, August 18, 2005

"Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006

"She [Hamas suicide bomber Re'em Al-Riyashi] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Associated Press, January 15, 2004

"To hell with you all."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, speaking about German Chancellor Merkel's call for Hamas to recognize Israel, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006

http://shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com/2009/01/shocking-quotes-by-hamas-regarding.html

Of course, now they have their own country, why won't they agree to the formation of a Palistinian state, just like their own?

I thought they had their own state...didn't they have elections back in 2006 where Hamas won?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372.html

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Received an interesting video that some of you may wish to view.

http://fun.mivzakon.co.il/flash/video/2673/2673.html

To me, after spending much time studying, I believe I know why the Muslims hate Jews so much.
It goes back to a fundamental flaw in the Muslim religion.
Remember, the Muslim religion came after Judaism and that Islam is based partly on the Old Testament and the Jewish dietary laws of Kushroot (Kosher). Islam added a bit more with both the Koran and their dietary laws "Halaal".
Islam is not alone in this, because Christianity has also based itself on Judaism with the Christian New Testament being an extension of the Jewish Old Testament.

The fundamental flaw is that Islam sees itself as an improved version of Judaism, much like Christianity sees itself as an improved version of Judaism too. The twist is that both religions recognise & validate the Old Testament. In doing so they recognise & validate the Jews as being the original "Chosen" people.

Islam, as well as Christianity, cannot deem themselves to be the "Chosen" whilst the Jews still exist.

That why the Catholic Church for 2,000 years spent most of its time trying to enhance its position by continuing to persecute Jews, and any other off-shoot Christian religions, ie Protestantism, that threatened the Catholic Churches position.

In the same way, the existance of the Jews, especially with a recognised State of Israel, is seen as a fundamental irritant to Islam and the Muslim people.

According to the precepts of their religion, Muslims cannot be the "Chosen" while the Jews exist. The same goes for Catholics & other Christians.

Compare this to other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Shamanism, et al, that have been created completely independently of the Jewish religion. They don't give "two hoots" about the Jews, Israel nor the conflict itself. Why, because these religions have no connection to Judaism, except that they may share some original stories such as the Creation story & the Flood story.

As for me, I wish NOT to be "Chosen" for anything.
I wish only to live my life as quietly and as easily as possible.
I see myself as an Australian, well actually a Melbournian primarily.

But then, in the end it will depend on how others see me because,
That is the lesson for all those Jews in Europe, in the early 20th century, who saw themselves primarily as good Germans, Poles, Hungarian, Dutch, Danish, etc.
That is the lesson of the Holocaust.

Nice video though.

http://fun.mivzakon.co.il/flash/video/2673/2673.html

 

[poppa x]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

A question for you Phanto.
A good friend of mine, now deceased, once said he was an Israeli, and not a Jew. He said his religion was Jewish, but he regarded himself as an Israeli.
Could you explain what he may have meant?

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Until this conflict I never realised the state of Israel is only 70 years old and was formed by the United Nations for the Jewish people in the heart of the Arab World.
Seems that it's ticked plenty of it's neighbours off simply by being there & seems it's had war surrounding it's entire existence.

 

[evo]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Until this conflict I never realised the state of Israel is only 70 years old and was formed by the United Nations for the Jewish people in the heart of the Arab World.
Seems that it's ticked plenty of it's neighbours off simply by being there & seems it's had war surrounding it's entire existence.

What really p!sses the Palestinians off is that Israel has slowly settled land above and beyond what was given to them by the UN.

If Israel went back to the borders of '47 which is what they have legal right to,then there would be alot less tension.

The settlements are just Zionist provacation.As you can see from the map West Bank in particular is ever dimishing and becoming fragemented. Palestians are blocked from even moving from one section of their own land to another in some cases.

 

[poppa x]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

tis a little bit misleading to include land in 1946 before the UN created Israel in 1948.
Exclude the first map and it looks a lot less convincing.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

tis a little bit misleading to include land in 1946 before the UN created Israel in 1948.
Exclude the first map and it looks a lot less convincing.

Less convincing how exactly? The point that I think is being made is that the Palestinians once occupied all of that land (ie. pre-1948). Compare that to what happened after the establishment of Israel and subsequent zionist expansion.

Not to justify Hamas rocket attacks, suicide bombers etc....but it is important to understand the context that this is all occurring in.