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Palestine and Israel
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Re: Not Good News From Israel
Phantom,
I doubt it also.
Purely because nothing has been resolved, and both sides are claiming victory.
* The 2 soldiers Hezbollah kidnapped still have not been released....hence Hezbollah are claiming victory.
* Israel have a chunk of southern Lebanon in their control, which they will still control until a mixture of Lebanese and UN soldiers take over.....hence Israel are claiming victory, as Hezbollah has lost that area it once 'owned'.
A UN force in southern Lebanon wil do nothing to stop Hezbollah rearming itself, and when the time seems right, Hezbollah will attack again.
In this current ceasefire, Israel has reserved its right to attack the area again, if Hezbollah attack first.
Whether the ceasefire will collapse or not, shouldn't be the question....but when.
Phantom said:
Phantom,
I doubt it also.
Purely because nothing has been resolved, and both sides are claiming victory.
* The 2 soldiers Hezbollah kidnapped still have not been released....hence Hezbollah are claiming victory.
* Israel have a chunk of southern Lebanon in their control, which they will still control until a mixture of Lebanese and UN soldiers take over.....hence Israel are claiming victory, as Hezbollah has lost that area it once 'owned'.
A UN force in southern Lebanon wil do nothing to stop Hezbollah rearming itself, and when the time seems right, Hezbollah will attack again.
In this current ceasefire, Israel has reserved its right to attack the area again, if Hezbollah attack first.
Whether the ceasefire will collapse or not, shouldn't be the question....but when.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
The bigger question is who actually gained more from this short war.
My answer might surprise you.
Hezbollah
Made big gains. Lebanese returning home will be waving Hezbollah flags. No doubt when they arrive to find their homes destroyed, they will blame Israel. The real test will be the increased proportion of seats Hezbollah holds after the next Lebanese election.
Lebanon
The Shi'ites in Lebanon will gain, at the expense of Sunnis & Christians. Many of the 2 latter groups will have left Lebanon never to return. There will be civil war again, until Sunnis capitulate totally. In the end, it is a big loser. Much of the south has been devastated and will take years to recover.
Israel
Neutral. Its border remains as intact as it was before the outbreak. UN soldiers will replace Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon, thus saving Israel the expense of financing occupying forces.
United States
Big losers. It constrained Israel from wiping out Hezbollah, therefore the root problem still exists. Iran will now tell Shi'ites around the world that the US is weak, and Shia is strong. The US will have to cope with the budgetary pressures of financing more peacekeeping soldiers overseas.
Iran
Big winners. The outbreak has given Iran time and latitude to speed its nuclear development. They have successfully tested both the US & the UN and realised that both are lame ducks. Iran has effectively added Lebanon to its growing Shi'ite empire.
United Nations
Hard to judge. We always knew the UN were lame ducks, they've proved it again. The UN will take credit for the ceasefire. Let's see if it leads to a lasting peace.
The bigger question is who actually gained more from this short war.
My answer might surprise you.
Hezbollah
Made big gains. Lebanese returning home will be waving Hezbollah flags. No doubt when they arrive to find their homes destroyed, they will blame Israel. The real test will be the increased proportion of seats Hezbollah holds after the next Lebanese election.
Lebanon
The Shi'ites in Lebanon will gain, at the expense of Sunnis & Christians. Many of the 2 latter groups will have left Lebanon never to return. There will be civil war again, until Sunnis capitulate totally. In the end, it is a big loser. Much of the south has been devastated and will take years to recover.
Israel
Neutral. Its border remains as intact as it was before the outbreak. UN soldiers will replace Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon, thus saving Israel the expense of financing occupying forces.
United States
Big losers. It constrained Israel from wiping out Hezbollah, therefore the root problem still exists. Iran will now tell Shi'ites around the world that the US is weak, and Shia is strong. The US will have to cope with the budgetary pressures of financing more peacekeeping soldiers overseas.
Iran
Big winners. The outbreak has given Iran time and latitude to speed its nuclear development. They have successfully tested both the US & the UN and realised that both are lame ducks. Iran has effectively added Lebanon to its growing Shi'ite empire.
United Nations
Hard to judge. We always knew the UN were lame ducks, they've proved it again. The UN will take credit for the ceasefire. Let's see if it leads to a lasting peace.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Good analysis Phantom. I have added my comments beneath yours.
Agree - the word is that the reputation of Hezbollah on the "Arab Street" has only grown as a result of this conflict. The Arabs are more able to "tolerate" civilian and military deaths on their side - the Israeli general population has a much lower tolerance of civilian and military death.
The real proof as you say will be after the elections.
In general I agree - the balance of power in the Muslim throughout the Middle East is shifting towards the Shia and away from the Sunni. It will be interesting to see how the other populations in Lebanon react. The tragedy is that prior to this latest conflict the Lebanese population had "reconciled" between Christians and Muslims - both resent Israel's interference equally.
I doubt however we will see sectarian civil war in Lebanon again.
Strategically, I agree - Israel's international reputation has definitely suffered however.
You could definitely interpret it this way. Another way to look at it is that it also will give the USA further grounds provoking a conflict with Iran - certainly Bush and the neocons have been showing signs of heading in this direction. What may prevent this is the growing unpopularity of US interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq - will the American public tolerate another large scale military campaign and probable long term occupation in Iran? Doubtful.
The UN is a lame duck at enforcing resolutions against the US, Israel and the Arab states. The ceasefire had to happen - but it looks as though it has happened before Israel could acheive all of what it hoped to acheive.
Nothing has been resolved except that there will be a "buffer" in Southern Lebanon while peace keepers are there.
Good analysis Phantom. I have added my comments beneath yours.
Phantom said:
Agree - the word is that the reputation of Hezbollah on the "Arab Street" has only grown as a result of this conflict. The Arabs are more able to "tolerate" civilian and military deaths on their side - the Israeli general population has a much lower tolerance of civilian and military death.
The real proof as you say will be after the elections.
Phantom said:
In general I agree - the balance of power in the Muslim throughout the Middle East is shifting towards the Shia and away from the Sunni. It will be interesting to see how the other populations in Lebanon react. The tragedy is that prior to this latest conflict the Lebanese population had "reconciled" between Christians and Muslims - both resent Israel's interference equally.
I doubt however we will see sectarian civil war in Lebanon again.
Phantom said:
Strategically, I agree - Israel's international reputation has definitely suffered however.
Phantom said:
You could definitely interpret it this way. Another way to look at it is that it also will give the USA further grounds provoking a conflict with Iran - certainly Bush and the neocons have been showing signs of heading in this direction. What may prevent this is the growing unpopularity of US interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq - will the American public tolerate another large scale military campaign and probable long term occupation in Iran? Doubtful.
Phantom said:
The UN is a lame duck at enforcing resolutions against the US, Israel and the Arab states. The ceasefire had to happen - but it looks as though it has happened before Israel could acheive all of what it hoped to acheive.
Nothing has been resolved except that there will be a "buffer" in Southern Lebanon while peace keepers are there.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
or even ask the 40 dead at Houla.....oh that's right, it was only one dead:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/lebanese-pm-in-massacre-uturn/2006/08/07/1154802822726.html
eight ace said:
or even ask the 40 dead at Houla.....oh that's right, it was only one dead:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/lebanese-pm-in-massacre-uturn/2006/08/07/1154802822726.html
Re: Not Good News From Israel
That was a very illuminating link, Phantom. I particularly liked the Mark Twain quote.Phantom said:
Re: Not Good News From Israel
All I did was post a link where, as Phantom showed us in his post:
...."propaganda" was used to pull at the heart-strings of the gullible.
What better way to gain support and sympathy, than to rig photos, place toys in convenient locations, hire actors and actresses from the local drama school to wail over their home being bombed (twice, for that poor old woman!), and to come on TV claiming 40 people were killed...when in fact, only one was killed.
The ironic part of it, is that my link came from "The Age"...a source of 'information' that EightAce/Antman use regularly.
antman said:
All I did was post a link where, as Phantom showed us in his post:
Phantom said:
...."propaganda" was used to pull at the heart-strings of the gullible.
What better way to gain support and sympathy, than to rig photos, place toys in convenient locations, hire actors and actresses from the local drama school to wail over their home being bombed (twice, for that poor old woman!), and to come on TV claiming 40 people were killed...when in fact, only one was killed.
The ironic part of it, is that my link came from "The Age"...a source of 'information' that EightAce/Antman use regularly.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Oh yes, such irony. I suggest to you that the ranks of the gullible are amply swelled by those such as yourself whose ideology prevents them from considering information critically. The article you posted indicated that the Prime Minister's initial statement was based on information he had received immediately after the incident and in a confused and difficult environment. He later amended his statement upon receiving better information. Not the act of a man deliberately seeking to mislead.
Oh yes, such irony. I suggest to you that the ranks of the gullible are amply swelled by those such as yourself whose ideology prevents them from considering information critically. The article you posted indicated that the Prime Minister's initial statement was based on information he had received immediately after the incident and in a confused and difficult environment. He later amended his statement upon receiving better information. Not the act of a man deliberately seeking to mislead.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Actually, it's quite interesting that I am heckled for not 'considering information critically', yet I have not read any criticism of Hezbollah, the Lebanese, or Reuters, on their blatant 'misinformation' pointed out on Phantom's link...from either of you two.
I am looking forward to your opinions of this, seeing that both of you are in the business of dealing and considering information with a balanced view.
antman said:
Actually, it's quite interesting that I am heckled for not 'considering information critically', yet I have not read any criticism of Hezbollah, the Lebanese, or Reuters, on their blatant 'misinformation' pointed out on Phantom's link...from either of you two.
I am looking forward to your opinions of this, seeing that both of you are in the business of dealing and considering information with a balanced view.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
You posted the link einstein, not me. I was merely suggesting you read what you post. I still think it's a good idea.
The article posted by Phantom and your reference to it suggested there was a widespread misinformation campaign by the Lebanese in conjunction with western media. Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't. The item posted by Phantom was certainly not proof of that more general proposition. I was merely suggesting there were plenty of genuinely dead people to make the issue of propaganda moot. Given you feel it unnecessary to address this point, why should I bother with yours?
You posted the link einstein, not me. I was merely suggesting you read what you post. I still think it's a good idea.
The article posted by Phantom and your reference to it suggested there was a widespread misinformation campaign by the Lebanese in conjunction with western media. Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't. The item posted by Phantom was certainly not proof of that more general proposition. I was merely suggesting there were plenty of genuinely dead people to make the issue of propaganda moot. Given you feel it unnecessary to address this point, why should I bother with yours?
Re: Not Good News From Israel
I remember that story when it first came out. A photographer (not Reuters) sold the photograph to Reuters who had been distributing it in good faith. As soon as they discovered it had been digitally altered, they pulled it, apologised and undertook not to purchase any more materials from that one photographer.
Fraud happens. Reuters dealt with it. Move on. Lets look at the real issues, real deaths, real damage and real strategic consequences.
It has very little to do with the realities of the conflict so most of us are happy to concede the point and move on.
Liverpool said:
I remember that story when it first came out. A photographer (not Reuters) sold the photograph to Reuters who had been distributing it in good faith. As soon as they discovered it had been digitally altered, they pulled it, apologised and undertook not to purchase any more materials from that one photographer.
Fraud happens. Reuters dealt with it. Move on. Lets look at the real issues, real deaths, real damage and real strategic consequences.
It has very little to do with the realities of the conflict so most of us are happy to concede the point and move on.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Hezbollah, Amal announce resignation from Lebanese government
By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/786507.html
The two major Lebanese Shiite political parties, Hezbollah and Amal, declared their intention to resign from the Lebanese government Saturday.
The two parties are represented in the government by five ministers, including Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh, who will resign from their posts.
Salloukh nonetheless traveled to Cairo on Saturday, in order to participate in a meeting of Arab League foreign ministers on the Israel Defense Forces shelling of Beit Hanun that killed 20 Palestinians on Wednesday.
"We want to allow the majority to carry out its will freely, without being forced to agree to harming our supreme national interest," said a joint statement issued by the parties.
"We wish those serving in the government all the best," said the statement.
Hezbollah faction whip Mohammed Ra'ad accused the movement's rivals of trying to govern the country by themselves.
"We resigned because the majority is insisting on ruling alone, and we do not want to be accompanying [government] members only," he said.
The resignations follow a series of changes that have taken place in Lebanon as a result of the recent war with Israel, which undermined the balance of power between Lebanon's Shiite community, which is loyal to Syria, and the bloc comprised of Sunni, Druze, and majority of Christians, which controls a majority of seats in parliament.
The resignations are widely viewed in Lebanon as an attempt to cause political paralysis in the country in order to force the government to agree to changes that would increase the Shiite parties' political power.
Additionally, the paralysis in Lebanon's parliament, which controls the security forces, could harm the government's attempt to impose its control in southern Lebanon and restrain Hezbollah's military activities.
The resignation of the Shiite ministers also delegitimizes the government under the 1989 Taif Accord, which brought the Lebanese civil war to an end. According to the agreement, the Lebanese cabinet must include Shiite ministers.
Hezbollah, Amal announce resignation from Lebanese government
By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/786507.html
The two major Lebanese Shiite political parties, Hezbollah and Amal, declared their intention to resign from the Lebanese government Saturday.
The two parties are represented in the government by five ministers, including Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh, who will resign from their posts.
Salloukh nonetheless traveled to Cairo on Saturday, in order to participate in a meeting of Arab League foreign ministers on the Israel Defense Forces shelling of Beit Hanun that killed 20 Palestinians on Wednesday.
"We want to allow the majority to carry out its will freely, without being forced to agree to harming our supreme national interest," said a joint statement issued by the parties.
"We wish those serving in the government all the best," said the statement.
Hezbollah faction whip Mohammed Ra'ad accused the movement's rivals of trying to govern the country by themselves.
"We resigned because the majority is insisting on ruling alone, and we do not want to be accompanying [government] members only," he said.
The resignations follow a series of changes that have taken place in Lebanon as a result of the recent war with Israel, which undermined the balance of power between Lebanon's Shiite community, which is loyal to Syria, and the bloc comprised of Sunni, Druze, and majority of Christians, which controls a majority of seats in parliament.
The resignations are widely viewed in Lebanon as an attempt to cause political paralysis in the country in order to force the government to agree to changes that would increase the Shiite parties' political power.
Additionally, the paralysis in Lebanon's parliament, which controls the security forces, could harm the government's attempt to impose its control in southern Lebanon and restrain Hezbollah's military activities.
The resignation of the Shiite ministers also delegitimizes the government under the 1989 Taif Accord, which brought the Lebanese civil war to an end. According to the agreement, the Lebanese cabinet must include Shiite ministers.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
On a positive note .....
Senior Hamas official: Unity gov't deal near
Moussa Abu Marzouk confirms agreement between Hamas, Fatah within sight, including name of Hamas candidate to replace current prime minister Haniyeh
Roee Nahmias Published: 11.11.06, 16:21
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3326797,00.html
A senior Hamas official has said that a deal between his group and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on forming a national unity government was near, adding that an agreement on the name of the new prime minister has been reached.
"There is some progress on this issue and in the next days, God willing, the remaining outstanding issues will be resolved," Moussa Abu Marzouk, deputy leader of Hamas' political bureau in Syria, said late Friday.
He spoke following talks he held in Damascus with Farouk Qaddumi, the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization's political wing. Abu Marzouk said Abbas and Hamas officials have agreed on the name of the candidate for the Palestinian prime minister.
Abu Marzouk confirmed that the candidate is a well-known Palestinian personality, but declined to disclose the his name, saying: "It will be disclosed at the suitable time."
"All the measures undertaken by Hamas aim at breaking the siege on the Palestinian people, otherwise there would be no need for (government) change," Abu Marzouk said.
Fatah confirms two sides close to agreement
Fatah faction leader Azzam al-Ahmed told Palestinian news agency Ramaten that the two sides are close to an agreement barring any "surprises from Hamas."
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said on Saturday that he expected to form a unity government with the rival Hamas faction this month in the hope of lifting a Western aid embargo.
"I announce to our people the happy news that we have achieved great progress on the path to establishing a national unity government that can end the siege and open the way toward a political settlement," Abbas said in a speech marking the second anniversary of the death of his predecessor, Yasser Arafat.
"I expect that, God willing, this government will see the light of day before the end of this month," he said.
"Any political program that is not based on the national program that was endorsed by popular consensus, and enjoyed international as well as Arab support, will only give a pretext to Israel to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and to refuse to withdraw from our land," he said.
Haniyeh to step down
The comments were pursuant to Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh's announcement on Friday that would be willing to sacrifice his job if the international community would lift economic sanctions that have crippled his Hamas-led government.
Haniyeh added that negotiations with Fatah would resume, after a cessation caused by the civilian deaths in Beit Hanoun. He posited that an agreement could be reached within two or three weeks.
His statement was the latest indication that Hamas was indeed nearing a deal to form a national unity government with Abbas' moderate Fatah Party that would be made up of independent experts.
Nonetheless, Haniyeh emphasized that even within the confines of a new government, "there would be no concessions", namely Hamas' refusal to recognize Israel would not change.
Israel has cautiously welcomed Abbas's efforts, though it insists that any new Palestinian government must recognize Israel's right to exist and renounce violence -- preconditions set by Western power-brokers -- before peace talks can begin.
"There is hope for the moderates, those who believe in a two-state solution," Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said on Friday.
She added that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is interested in meeting Abbas in order to advance the issue of a unity government. The idea is to strengthen Abbas' position in order to send a message to Palestinian moderates that there is an alternative to the Hamas way, she said.
On a positive note .....
Senior Hamas official: Unity gov't deal near
Moussa Abu Marzouk confirms agreement between Hamas, Fatah within sight, including name of Hamas candidate to replace current prime minister Haniyeh
Roee Nahmias Published: 11.11.06, 16:21
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3326797,00.html
A senior Hamas official has said that a deal between his group and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on forming a national unity government was near, adding that an agreement on the name of the new prime minister has been reached.
"There is some progress on this issue and in the next days, God willing, the remaining outstanding issues will be resolved," Moussa Abu Marzouk, deputy leader of Hamas' political bureau in Syria, said late Friday.
He spoke following talks he held in Damascus with Farouk Qaddumi, the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization's political wing. Abu Marzouk said Abbas and Hamas officials have agreed on the name of the candidate for the Palestinian prime minister.
Abu Marzouk confirmed that the candidate is a well-known Palestinian personality, but declined to disclose the his name, saying: "It will be disclosed at the suitable time."
"All the measures undertaken by Hamas aim at breaking the siege on the Palestinian people, otherwise there would be no need for (government) change," Abu Marzouk said.
Fatah confirms two sides close to agreement
Fatah faction leader Azzam al-Ahmed told Palestinian news agency Ramaten that the two sides are close to an agreement barring any "surprises from Hamas."
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said on Saturday that he expected to form a unity government with the rival Hamas faction this month in the hope of lifting a Western aid embargo.
"I announce to our people the happy news that we have achieved great progress on the path to establishing a national unity government that can end the siege and open the way toward a political settlement," Abbas said in a speech marking the second anniversary of the death of his predecessor, Yasser Arafat.
"I expect that, God willing, this government will see the light of day before the end of this month," he said.
"Any political program that is not based on the national program that was endorsed by popular consensus, and enjoyed international as well as Arab support, will only give a pretext to Israel to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and to refuse to withdraw from our land," he said.
Haniyeh to step down
The comments were pursuant to Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh's announcement on Friday that would be willing to sacrifice his job if the international community would lift economic sanctions that have crippled his Hamas-led government.
Haniyeh added that negotiations with Fatah would resume, after a cessation caused by the civilian deaths in Beit Hanoun. He posited that an agreement could be reached within two or three weeks.
His statement was the latest indication that Hamas was indeed nearing a deal to form a national unity government with Abbas' moderate Fatah Party that would be made up of independent experts.
Nonetheless, Haniyeh emphasized that even within the confines of a new government, "there would be no concessions", namely Hamas' refusal to recognize Israel would not change.
Israel has cautiously welcomed Abbas's efforts, though it insists that any new Palestinian government must recognize Israel's right to exist and renounce violence -- preconditions set by Western power-brokers -- before peace talks can begin.
"There is hope for the moderates, those who believe in a two-state solution," Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said on Friday.
She added that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is interested in meeting Abbas in order to advance the issue of a unity government. The idea is to strengthen Abbas' position in order to send a message to Palestinian moderates that there is an alternative to the Hamas way, she said.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Interesting article from today's newspaper:
Ahmadinejad's 'sick joke': Iran has no gays
September 25, 2007 - 9:31AM
Vilified as a Holocaust denier, a supporter of terrorism and a backer of Iraqi insurgents, the president of Iran was actually able to make New Yorkers burst into laughter - but not at a joke.
"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country,'' Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said at Columbia University in response to a question about the recent execution of two gay men there.
"In Iran we do not have this phenomenon,'' he continued. "I do not know who has told you we have it.''
Loud laughs and boos broke from the audience of about 700 people, mostly students at the Ivy League school whose garb included "Stop Ahmadinejad's Evil'' T-shirts.
Everyone from presidential candidates to September 11 families had expressed outrage that Ahmadinejad would speak at the university.
University President Lee Bollinger pulled no punches.
He called him a "petty and cruel dictator'' and said his Holocaust denials suggested he was either "brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated.''
"I feel the weight of the modern civilized world yearning to express the revulsion at what you stand for,'' Bollinger said to loud applause.
In retort, Ahmadinejad berated Bollinger as a rude host.
"Many parts of his speech were insults,'' he said. "We actually respect our students and the professors by allowing them to make their own judgments.''
After his assertions that Israel persecutes Palestinians and that Iran's nuclear program is for energy not weapons, the Iranian leader's comment on gays broke the tension.
But it spurred strong reaction too.
"This is a sick joke,'' said Scott Long of Human Rights Watch, saying Iran tortures gays under a penal code that punishes homosexuality between men with the death penalty.
When Ahmadinejad, speaking in Farsi, actually tried to crack a joke, it drew no laughter, although maybe the nuance was lost in translation.
"Let me tell a joke here,'' Ahmadinejad said. "I think the politicians who are after atomic bombs, or testing them, making them, politically they are backward, *smile*.''
The crowd seemed uncertain how to react. Some applauded that pacifist sentiment, others seemed befuddled by the insensitive use of the word *smile*.
Ahmadinejad's visit here was preceded by a deluge of objections when it became apparent he wanted to lay a wreath at Ground Zero and that he would speak at Columbia.
Presidential candidates from both major US political parties took swipes at the president of a country President George W. Bush calls part of "the axis of evil.''
They said he denied the Holocaust, supported terrorism and armed Iraqi insurgents.
New York City councilman Anthony Weiner had a different way of capturing all that.
"Sometimes we have snakes slithering through the streets of New York,'' Weiner told protesters outside the United Nations, where Ahmadinejad will speak on Tuesday.
And in a city known for its blunt manners, the Iranian president's reception was bound to be frosty. The New York Daily News had the front page headline, "The Evil Has Landed.''
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/09/25/1190486264717.html?s_rid=theage:top5
Where are the protests on this forum from people defending minority groups?
Where are the hippies and APEC/G20 troublemakers, rioting in our streets, in protest at this type of abuse and prejudice?
Where are the anti-nuclear lobby protests?
Liverpool said:
Interesting article from today's newspaper:
Ahmadinejad's 'sick joke': Iran has no gays
September 25, 2007 - 9:31AM
Vilified as a Holocaust denier, a supporter of terrorism and a backer of Iraqi insurgents, the president of Iran was actually able to make New Yorkers burst into laughter - but not at a joke.
"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country,'' Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said at Columbia University in response to a question about the recent execution of two gay men there.
"In Iran we do not have this phenomenon,'' he continued. "I do not know who has told you we have it.''
Loud laughs and boos broke from the audience of about 700 people, mostly students at the Ivy League school whose garb included "Stop Ahmadinejad's Evil'' T-shirts.
Everyone from presidential candidates to September 11 families had expressed outrage that Ahmadinejad would speak at the university.
University President Lee Bollinger pulled no punches.
He called him a "petty and cruel dictator'' and said his Holocaust denials suggested he was either "brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated.''
"I feel the weight of the modern civilized world yearning to express the revulsion at what you stand for,'' Bollinger said to loud applause.
In retort, Ahmadinejad berated Bollinger as a rude host.
"Many parts of his speech were insults,'' he said. "We actually respect our students and the professors by allowing them to make their own judgments.''
After his assertions that Israel persecutes Palestinians and that Iran's nuclear program is for energy not weapons, the Iranian leader's comment on gays broke the tension.
But it spurred strong reaction too.
"This is a sick joke,'' said Scott Long of Human Rights Watch, saying Iran tortures gays under a penal code that punishes homosexuality between men with the death penalty.
When Ahmadinejad, speaking in Farsi, actually tried to crack a joke, it drew no laughter, although maybe the nuance was lost in translation.
"Let me tell a joke here,'' Ahmadinejad said. "I think the politicians who are after atomic bombs, or testing them, making them, politically they are backward, *smile*.''
The crowd seemed uncertain how to react. Some applauded that pacifist sentiment, others seemed befuddled by the insensitive use of the word *smile*.
Ahmadinejad's visit here was preceded by a deluge of objections when it became apparent he wanted to lay a wreath at Ground Zero and that he would speak at Columbia.
Presidential candidates from both major US political parties took swipes at the president of a country President George W. Bush calls part of "the axis of evil.''
They said he denied the Holocaust, supported terrorism and armed Iraqi insurgents.
New York City councilman Anthony Weiner had a different way of capturing all that.
"Sometimes we have snakes slithering through the streets of New York,'' Weiner told protesters outside the United Nations, where Ahmadinejad will speak on Tuesday.
And in a city known for its blunt manners, the Iranian president's reception was bound to be frosty. The New York Daily News had the front page headline, "The Evil Has Landed.''
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/09/25/1190486264717.html?s_rid=theage:top5
Where are the protests on this forum from people defending minority groups?
Where are the hippies and APEC/G20 troublemakers, rioting in our streets, in protest at this type of abuse and prejudice?
Where are the anti-nuclear lobby protests?
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Right here. Although I wouldn't consider myself a hippy ;D.
Anyone whose beliefs run counter to the evidence should be pulled up for it and shown that this is the main driver for unrest in the world we live in. The problem is, in this case, that this individual has the power, or may soon have the power, to cause major chaos and carnage because of those beliefs. The same could be said for George W as well though and many other world leaders whose judgement is coloured by their 'faith'.
Liverpool said:
Right here. Although I wouldn't consider myself a hippy ;D.
Anyone whose beliefs run counter to the evidence should be pulled up for it and shown that this is the main driver for unrest in the world we live in. The problem is, in this case, that this individual has the power, or may soon have the power, to cause major chaos and carnage because of those beliefs. The same could be said for George W as well though and many other world leaders whose judgement is coloured by their 'faith'.
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