Palestine and Israel | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Palestine and Israel

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Re: Not Good News From Israel

Phantom said:
Agree.
It's not what the word means, but it is how it has come to be used.
You may recall that I dealt with this during one of the chapters that I posted.

Ok, sorry about that Phantom, been a bit hard keeping up with this thread. My personal feeling is that the word is misused when it is applied exclusively to Jewish people, and also overused as a means of branding much of the criticism toward Israel or Zionism with a racist connotation which often isn't intended by the critic/commentator/author.

I'm sorry your daughter and other relatives are caught up in this mess, I hope they can stay safe.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Israeli Cabinet approves UN ceasefire deal
Harinder Mishra

Jerusalem, August 13
Israel's Cabinet today approved the UN ceasefire deal, paving the way for an end to its 32-day-long offensive against Lebanon.

The Israeli Cabinet approved the deal by a 24-0 vote, with one abstention, a government official said.

The UN resolution had already been approved by the Lebanese government yesterday and the Hezbollah had agreed to abide by its provisions.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who spoke at the meeting, said the resolution was “good” for Israel.

“The UN Security Council resolution 1701 is a good resolution that creates true conditions to implement UNSCR 1559 and prevent a return to the status quo,” he said.

“Hezbollah won't continue to be a state-within-a-state inside Lebanon and the Lebanese government will become the point of contact for the Israeli government,” Olmert told his ministers.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060814/world.htm#1

A UN-agreed ceasefire is due to come into effect at 3pm AEST today after more than a month of fighting between Israel and Hezbollah.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20118979-5005961,00.html
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Good news for the time being.

A worrying trend from Israel's point of view is the seemingly greatly increased support for Hezbollah - the Lebanese govt was weak before this latest skirmish unfolded...all signs I've seen point to the current non-Hezbollah members of the coalition being very wary about even speaking out against Hezbollah, let alone dealing with them in any meaningful way. Like most politicians placed in similar situations, you'd have to assume their reluctance stems from an awareness of public perception - i.e. an awareness of Hezbollah's increasingly widespread support.

In all likelihood, Hezbollah could well do as Hamas have done and take political control of the country (either in actuality or by default through their political opponents not being willing to oppose them) in the next elections.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel


Interesting to see also that Israeli PM Ehud Olmert is now in big trouble with more hawkish figures like Netanyahu mobilising to have him removed in the wake of the military campaign and now the ceasefire.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Yep, that's politics.

Probably the only difference is that in Israel the offices of President & Prime Minister are handed over by means of a democratic election. In other parts of the Middle East, Lebanon included, it is usually via a military coup or by assassination.

Olmert is no better nor worse than any other citizen.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Phantom said:
Yep, that's politics.

Probably the only difference is that in Israel the offices of President & Prime Minister are handed over by means of a democratic election. In other parts of the Middle East, Lebanon included, it is usually via a military coup or by assassination.

Olmert is no better nor worse than any other citizen.

No criticism of Olmert was implied in my last post but I will rise to the bait. In fact it looks as though the Lebanese war has been on the IDF's books for over a year and as suspected, the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers was only the convenient trigger. Looks like Olmert will carry the can for the campaign though - and there is strong discontent in the IDF as well as the millitary objectives of the IDF have not been achieved either.

Israel is nominally a democracy. My US friends often use this as a defence for Israel, and a reason for it to be supported against the Arab states. Democracy in Israel is far from unproblematic however - even if you are not a person living in the occupied territories where democracy definitely does not apply.

The IDF is incredibly influential in Israeli politics and operates without many of the checks and balances common to most Western democracies. Since the invasion of Lebanon, there has not been one debate in the Knesset about the rights and wrongs of the strategy. This problem of a military mindset pervading civilian politics is not unique to Israel of course - critics of the Palestinian Authority and Fatah also saw the legacy of Fatah's terrorist activity and armed struggle as an impediment to true democratic reform. It's hard for warlike states and organisations to "shift gear" to a more peaceful mode of negotiation and existence.

The USA (and by extension Israel) have long had a vested interest in denying democracy to the Arab states because it has often been more convenient to have a compliant non-democratic elite (eg. the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein) than allow a true democracy to develop - witness the recent democratic elections for the Palestinian Authority - the US, UK etc were disappointed that Hamas won - Hamas being more militant than Arafat's Fatah.

The US and the West is happy to trumpet the cause of democracy in the region but only if those elected are those the West approves of.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Antman, if you truly believe all this then I feel sorry for you.

No criticism of Olmert was implied in my last post but I will rise to the bait.  In fact it looks as though the Lebanese war has been on the IDF's books for over a year and as suspected, the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers was only the convenient trigger.
Source for this information? 

Israel is nominally a democracy.
Please explain? Are you saying it's not? Please name all the surrounding countries that are true democracies, and that allow Jews to vote(as approx. 1 million Israeli arabs are allowed to). No, I'm not taking about the territories, just the country of Israel.

The IDF is incredibly influential in Israeli politics and operates without many of the checks and balances common to most Western democracies.
Source? Are you saying they stack votes? 

Since the invasion of Lebanon, there has not been one debate in the Knesset about the rights and wrongs of the strategy.  This problem of a military mindset pervading civilian politics is not unique to Israel of course - critics of the Palestinian Authority and Fatah also saw the legacy of Fatah's terrorist activity and armed struggle as an impediment to true democratic reform.  It's hard for warlike states and organisations to "shift gear" to a more peaceful mode of negotiation and existence.

How many protests against Hezbollah have sprung up in Arab states? How many movements for peace with Israel are around in the Arab communities? Israel has a vibrant community of citizens protesting military action against the Palestinians, and are allowed to say so freely.

The USA (and by extension Israel) have long had a vested interest in denying democracy to the Arab states because it has often been more convenient to have a compliant non-democratic elite (eg. the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein) than allow a true democracy to develop - witness the recent democratic elections for the Palestinian Authority - the US, UK etc were disappointed that Hamas won - Hamas being more militant than Arafat's Fatah.

The US and the West is happy to trumpet the cause of democracy in the region but only if those elected are those the West approves of.

So if New South Wales democratically elected a govenment whose stated aim was to wipe Victoria off the map using any means possible, you would have no problem with that.

The facts are that most Israelis want to live in peace and democracy.Of course there are warmongers ,and people do the right thing or the wrong thing. But it is a country where that can be debated and discussed. Groups like Hezzbollah want to wipe Israel off the map and turn the area back to the stone age.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

My only criticism in observing the operations of the IDF was that I believe the government interfered too much with the running of the military campaign.

It was quite apparent to me that the IDF appeared to be deployed with one arm tied behind its back. Never a good manner in which to enter any battle, but it is common in democracies.

Same thing seems to happen whenever the ADF (Australia) is deployed.

Mind you, it's often those checks & balances that keep the military operating within international conventions.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Aug. 14, 2006, 8:36PM
Annan details Mideast cease-fire terms
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4116883.html

By EDITH M. LEDERER Associated Press Writer
© 2006 The Associated Press

UNITED NATIONS — Secretary-General Kofi Annan sent letters to Israel and Lebanon spelling out terms for the cease-fire that warn both sides against occupying additional territory or changing the number and location of troops.

A copy of the letter to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, obtained Monday by The Associated Press, set out the U.N.'s expectations of how both sides will fulfill their obligations under the Security Council resolution adopted Friday.

A similar letter was sent to Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora, U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric said.

The resolution called for an end to the war between Israel and Hezbollah militants, and authorized up to 15,000 U.N. peacekeepers to help 15,000 Lebanese troops take control of south Lebanon, which was under Hezbollah's control, as Israel withdraws. The cessation of hostilities took effect early Monday, the 34th day of fighting that claimed more than 900 lives.

Annan told Israel and Lebanon in the letters sent Sunday that once the cessation of hostilities took effect there must be no firing from the ground, sea or air into the other side's territory or at its forces.

Lebanon and Israel must immediately inform the United Nations if they have been fired on, with as much detail as possible, "refraining from responding except where clearly required in immediate self-defense," Annan said.

Neither side can occupy _ or seek to occupy _ any additional territory from the other side, he said.

Under the U.N. resolution, Hezbollah is required to immediately stop all attacks but Israel is only required to immediately stop "all offensive military operations."

In the case of any firing, Annan said that "the U.N. undertakes to bring, in an impartial manner, such incidents to the attention of the Security Council as quickly as possible."

Annan also said each side must refrain "from any changes in the strength, composition or disposition of its forces ... unless it notified the U.N. in advance and the U.N. in turn is able to inform the other side."

He asked the two leaders to designate a general who would be accessible to the commander of the U.N. force, known as UNIFIL, French Maj. Gen. Alain Pellegrini. The three generals met Monday morning _ just hours after the cessation of hostilities began _ at the U.N. position on the border crossing on the Mediterranean coast at Ras Naqoura.

Little chance that truce will mark end of fighting
Ed O'Loughlin Herald Correspondent in Tibnin, Lebanon
August 15, 2006
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/little-chance-that-truce-will-mark-end-of-fighting/2006/08/14/1155407739695.html

ANALYSIS

THE ceasefire resolution agreed to by all parties at the weekend is unlikely to bring peace, and perhaps not even a lasting ceasefire.

The Israeli Army has signalled that it will continue to occupy some areas of south Lebanon until a United Nations-Lebanese force is deployed there, and that it will attack what it deems Hezbollah targets in those areas until it withdraws.

Hezbollah would be unlikely to remain passive under those circumstances, and it has also said that it reserves the right to attack any Israeli soldiers in Lebanon after the ceasefire.

Significant numbers of Hezbollah fighters were still operating well inside Israel's self-declared buffer zone when the truce officially came into effect at 8am (3pm in Sydney) yesterday, defying Israel's massive superiority by attacking tanks and infantry positions with mortars and missiles.

The 48 hours leading up to the truce were the most bloody in the war for the Israeli Defence Force, which lost at least 29 men in a major offensive launched after its government agreed to the UN's ceasefire resolution.

More than 20 Lebanese civilians were also reported to have died as Israeli aircraft continued to attack homes and cars before the truce.

With local clashes likely to continue, realistic hopes for a reduction in violence are pinned on a return to the situation which existed between Israel's last major assault on Lebanon - Operation Grapes of Wrath in 1996 - and its withdrawal from south Lebanon in 2000 after 22 years of occupation.

In 1996, having failed to eliminate Hezbollah with an aerial onslaught remarkably similar to the opening stages of the present war - though costing fewer civilian lives - Israel agreed to cease attacking civilian targets in Lebanon if Hezbollah would in turn stop firing rockets at civilian towns in Israel.

But the de facto agreement allowed both parties to continue their war in the areas of south Lebanon that Israel then controlled. Four years later the then prime minister, Ehud Barak, finally withdrew all Israeli forces in the face of mounting losses to Hezbollah guerillas.

Even should Hezbollah and the Israeli military manage to disentangle themselves from their current tactical situation, the terms of the UN-mandated ceasefire leave all the main issues in the war unresolved.

Hezbollah is still believed to hold the two Israeli soldiers whose capture in a border raid precipitated the war on July 12. It says it will only exchange them for several long-term Lebanese prisoners held by Israel.

This would require a humiliating reversal by Ehud Olmert's Government, which vowed not to negotiate with "terrorists" and which sold the war to the Israeli public as a means of forcing their unconditional release.

The UN resolution also has gaping holes concerning another of Israel's demands, disarming Hezbollah, which is unlikely to be deterred from re-establishing itself in its southern Lebanon heartland by the proposed mixed force of Lebanese soldiers and UN peacekeepers.

The Israeli Government has said that it reserves the right to attack the area again should Hezbollah rearm itself. And Hezbollah's chief remaining grievance - the Israeli occupation of a small disputed border area known as Shabaa Farms, seems no closer to resolution than when the fighting broke out.

The Shabaa Farms are in turn linked to the broader issue of the Israeli-occupied Syrian territory in the Golan Heights, which they border, and Israel's relations with Syria, in deep-freeze since the 1967 war.

But the prospect of Israel resuming talks with Syria for the return of the Golan Heights seems remote when Israel is battling to overcome perceptions that its forces have taken a beating.

Personally, my knowledge of human history tells me that these are not the circumstances of a lasting peace. Hopefully I'm wrong.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

The IDF deployed with one arm tied behind its back? Are you serious?

There is really no analogy at all between recent activities of the IDF and any of the ADF's deployments of the last few years. The IDF is a large and aggressive force, very much a law unto itself and its activites in Lebanon are evidence of that. There was little evidence of restraint being displayed by the IDF during its Lebanon deployment

While the ADF deployment to Iraq was certainly part of an aggressive action, it involved a small number of people under American command. Other deployments had their own circumstances relating to command structure. There were certainly limiting factors involved in each of these deployments and the approach taken to use of force both politically and operationally in Australia is entirely different to that confronted by the IDF.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

eight ace said:
The IDF deployed with one arm tied behind its back? Are you serious?

Yep.
Have you studied military history?

If you had an enemy that was held up in bunkers and underground tunnels, what would you do?
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

What comes next? A revelation of my profound ignorance? In accordnce with my ideology, obviously favouring totalitarian dictators, I would deploy tactical nuclear weapons against military targets and nerve gas against civilian targets. Having subdued my enemy I would commence repopulating the area with my own kind and use specially trained clergy to reorient the belief structure of remaining locals. Those who didn't comply would be sent to re-education facilities.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

eight ace said:
What comes next? A revelation of my profound ignorance?

Only you can prove or disprove that.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

eight ace said:
What comes next? A revelation of my profound ignorance? In accordnce with my ideology, obviously favouring totalitarian dictators, I would deploy tactical nuclear weapons against military targets and nerve gas against civilian targets. Having subsued my enemy I would commence repopulating the area with my own kind and use specially trained clergy to reorient the belief structure of remaining locals. Those who didn't comply would be sent to re-education facilities.

Ok, well thank goodness your ideology did not prevail.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Oh yes, thank goodness. Maybe I will satisfy myself by torturing a small animal instead.

Your earlier assertion that the IDF had one hand tied behind its back - could you elaborate? Why do you think that was the case?
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

bdr said:
Antman, if you truly believe all this then I feel sorry for you.

Don't feel sorry for me - this is all about debate and different points of view. I might disagree with you, but I don't try and patronise you by "feeling sorry for you" because you have a differing opinion. You have come into the debate late and many of these points have been covered. Go back and read my posts in this thread and try to think critically and avoid seeing everything as a direct challenge to your world view.

bdr said:
Source for this information?

Here is one - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL&hw=kalman&sn=001&sc=1000

There are many others. This is the last time I do your homework for you. In fact if you think Israel has not planned for scenarios like this since its withdrawal from Lebanon six years ago, you are incredibly naive and know nothing of how Israel manages its security affairs. I make this as a statement of fact with no moral judgement whatsoever - if I were in the IDF I would be planning such actions as well - but don't swallow the claptrap that this is all about two kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

bdr said:
Please explain? Are you saying it's not? Please name all the surrounding countries that are true democracies, and that allow Jews to vote(as approx. 1 million Israeli arabs are allowed to). No, I'm not taking about the territories, just the country of Israel.

I am sorry, did I say anywhere that the surrounding states are "true democracies"? Does the fact that Israel is a democracy (where the IDF calls the shots regarding military objectives) give it the right to invade its neighbours and bomb their civilian infrastructure to hell on the grounds of spurious military objectives?

I realise it is inconvenient to recognise the fact that Israeli democracy is based in part on brutal suppression of people in the occupied territories and beyond. As Phantom noted, many Israelis make this point themselves which is the sign of at least a partially functional democracy.

The IDF is incredibly influential in Israeli politics and operates without many of the checks and balances common to most Western democracies.

bdr said:
Source? Are you saying they stack votes?

Nothing so simplistic. The IDF operates without the usual checks and balances of a military attached to a democracy. This is no doubt a consequence of history, but it also needs to be addressed - and there are many inside Israel who make this point repeatedly and often at great personal cost. Go away and read the critiques of the Israeli system of government and the preeminent role of the IDF in government and policy making. I won't do your basic research for you.

bdr said:
So if New South Wales democratically elected a govenment whose stated aim was to wipe Victoria off the map using any means possible, you would have no problem with that.

Sorry, did I say anywhere I agreed with a wipe Israel off the map policy? Don't confuse a critique of Israel and its methods with an endorsement of Hezbollah and its methods. Don't jump to conclusions to make a weak argumentative point.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

eight ace said:
Oh yes, thank goodness. Maybe I will satisfy myself by torturing a small animal instead.

Your earlier assertion that the IDF had one hand tied behind its back - could you elaborate? Why do you think that was the case?

Because the IDF took so long to commit ground troops to the action. The Israeli govt was and is extremely sensitive too their own casualties. The fortnight of ground troop commitment, and the resultant casualties, I believe, were the major factor in the ceasefire.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

The relative lack of success of the IDF in achieving its military objectives would have occurred regardless of an earlier commitment of ground forces. In any event, once those forces were committed there appeared to be few operational limits on their use. As events came to pass I doubt whether the IDF itself had the stomach for the costs associated with attaining its objectives.

Of course, not being a student of military history, I cannot be sure of this.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Yep, well you never know.

Hopefully, this ceasefire may turn into eternal peace.

But somehow I doubt it.
 
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