Palestine and Israel | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Palestine and Israel

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Re: Not Good News From Israel

Yep. I don't know whether it is a slow immunity coming over me, but I am getting tired of this matter.

I did feel something for the innocents of Lebanon at one stage, but it seems that the Lebanese government want their cake and to eat it too.

I received an email this morning, a shortened version of it is:

I Don't Care

The lady who wrote this letter is Pam Foster of Pamela Foster
and Associates in Atlanta. She's been in business since 1980 doing
interior design and home planning. She recently wrote a letter to a
family member serving in Iraq....... Read it!

WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS?
"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we?
Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to
our shores onSeptember 11, 2001? Were people from all over the world,
mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown
Manhattan, across the Potomacfrom our nation's capitol and in a field
inPennsylvania?

Did nearly three th ousand men, women and children die a
horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was
"desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it
wet? Well, I don't. I don't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and
repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East
start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a
crime in Saudi Arabia.

I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry
for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his
gurgling slashed throat.


I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come
out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by
hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in
search of nirvana care about the innocent child ren within range of
their suicide bombs.


I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their
First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law
instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.


In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine
roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this:

I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who
have been humiliated in what amounts to a college hazing incident,
rest assured that I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is
told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it
to the bank that I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a
prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is
complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely

believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled
"Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ---- you
guessed it - - - I don't care ! ! ! ! !



Some of the above is, of course, over the top.

The Hezbollah started this war in Lebanon, if they want it to end, let them finish it.
To quote then General Ulysses S. Grant, "Unconditional Surrender!"
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

"College hazing incident"? Curious use of language, and an example of why I no longer bother with many Americans on this issue any more. Of course she doesn't care about desecration of the holy book of these people, but would be the first to squeal when her bible is mishandled. I have little regard for religion of any flavour these days, but these conflicts are not just religious. In fact they are primarily political in nature, and the attitude displayed in the email, and its equivalent on the other side, means there is no real medium term resolution to the "War on Terror (TM)". Of course, some Americans see this as a good thing.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Yep.

I suppose a similar idea came into thought around 1945.

Is it justified to end a war at great humanitarian cost, than to endure the further humanitarian cost of letting it continue?
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

In 1945 the war was far more easily defined than the war on terror. So was its resolution. In the case of Lebanon, I can understand that Hizbollah is a difficult military opponent for Israel and that conventional military approaches will not work. I cannot accept that this means anything goes, and I see a disturbing approach by the IDF in this and other conflicts to adopt the view that their end justifies any means they see fit and that regardless of those means, criticism is never justified. The IDF seems to be almost a law unto itself. What are its military objectives in this conflict? Destruction of Hizbollah alone? From the approach adopted by the IDF, I don't think so.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

And is Hezbollah a law unto itself?
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

As I said earlier, I see no reason why I should apply the same standards to the IDF as I do to Hizbollah. Nor should you. Assymetric warfare has its limits for any legitimate defence force.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

eight ace said:
As I said earlier, I see no reason why I should apply the same standards to the IDF as I do to Hizbollah. Nor should you. Assymetric warfare has its limits for any legitimate defence force.

Ha!
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

On the "I don't care" email Phantom posted before (which seems to me to be more about Iraq than Lebanon - but heck, all those Muslims are the same anyways, gosh darn 'em).

The US department of State warned Bush and Rice in formal documents and reports what would happen in Iraq post-invasion. Iraq would become the focus of terrorist activity and would contribute to a more unstable region, not less, and not a democratic haven sending peace and light throughout the region. They were warned that unless very specific and long-term steps and actions where taken post invasion, Iraq would slide towards insurgent activity and possibly civil war.

Everything that was predicted by their own experts is happening. It goes way beyond grainy photographs of Abu Ghraib (college hazing) to the indiscriminate slaughter of Iraqi civilians by both the Allied forces in Iraq and the Islamic terrorists who have now moved into Iraq as the new battlefront of the so-called "war on terror".

Now Americans are getting "tired" of the consequences of their actions and want to turn away from the mess their government has created. It would be funny if it was not so tragic.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Did you have a revelatory moment, Phantom? The IDF is destroying civilian infrastructure to the extent that Lebanon will not be viable for years to come. It is assisting to create a new generation of young Lebanese who will be attracted to the ideology of Hizbollah. It is assisting to force Lebanese people who would normally have nothing to do with Hizbollah into the arms of that group because there is nowhere else to go. It is killing as indiscriminately as is Hizbollah, but with more firepower. Where is the self-defence in all that?
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

eight ace said:
Did you have a revelatory moment, Phantom? The IDF is destroying civilian infrastructure to the extent that Lebanon will not be viable for years to come. It is assisting to create a new generation of young Lebanese who will be attracted to the ideology of Hizbollah. It is assisting to force Lebanese people who would normally have nothing to do with Hizbollah into the arms of that group because there is nowhere else to go. It is killing as indiscriminately as is Hizbollah, but with more firepower. Where is the self-defence in all that?

Yep.
When it comes down to it, are there any guarantees that if the IDF stops firing that Hezbollah will stop firing too?

Someone described earlier about assymmetrical warfare.
Can there be a assymetrical ceasefire?

Maybe that's what the Hezbollah & Lebanese govt are looking for?

Maybe Hezbollah & the Lebanese govt should have thought more about their children before they launched their rockets.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

What I said earlier was that I support Israel's right to defend itself, but that I do not believe its actions have been entirely defensive. Obviously a unilateral cease-fire won't work, but neither will a continuation of things as they are. I do not believe that the approach Israel has adopted in South Lebanon will destroy Hizbollah militarily or politically.

As for the Lebanese government, it has no chance after the events of the last few weeks. "Oh god, let's think of the children". Sorry, but I don't think that is a big one for either side.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

No. I agree.
Reactive, yes, defensive, well, the best form of defense is attack, just tactical semantics. You know, strategic defense, tactical offense.

I've seen today that they're posting about Lebanon wanting to take charge of what happens in the area.
They seem reasonable sentiments, but it is hard to give these credibilty when they have failed to take charge from the onset, and look to have no visible means to actually take charge.

Sometimes words just aren't enough.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

I agree with you, I don't think the Lebanese authorities have any chance of controlling their ground. I understand the role of an aggressive defence, what I am suggesting is that the IDF has moved beyond that - but we could argue all day on that point. I do think that nothing has been achieved in creating a more stable environment on Israel's border.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Yeah, like I've said before...would be great if a Lebanese Government could control what happens within their borders, but like Phantom said, are they just saying that?
Words are cheap....we're in this predicament because of their weakness to begin with!

Are they saying this to put some pressure on Israel and the international community to bring about a ceasefire....and then in 1, 2, or 5 years time, we go through this same 'procedure' again? ::)

I'll throw something from left-field....

Middleeastmap.jpg


With Iran gathering nuclear technology, and for all we know, very close to a capability of actually using nuclear weapons......and with the knowledge that Iran is very keen on the eradication of Israel and has threatened to use nuclear technology to achieve their aim....my question is, is the Israel-Lebanon conflict part of a "bigger picture"?

We have the US and Allies to Iran's eastern border, in Afghanistan "looking for Bin Laden". Also, Pakistan have allowed in the past US military operations to pass through there to assist Pakistani forces in cleaning-up the Taliban.
That's the east covered.

To Iran's west....we have Iraq, which again has a large force of US and Allied soldiers and equipment.

More to Iran's north is Turkey....over 50 years in NATO. A US and Allied supporter.

As you can see from the map....this more or less cuts off, or at least makes it harder, for Iran to get weapons through to Syria (which of course, en-routes them to Hezbollah).
Iran is pretty much surrounded.

With Lebanon....well, as we've discussed ad-nauseum...Lebanon have been harbouring Hezbollah, and frankly, Hezbollah have gotten stronger, especially military-wise.

A ceasefire won't work. If the conflict stopped now....Hezbollah would just regroup, buy more weapons, and we would be into it again. This has happened in the past, and I can't see why it wouldn't happen again.

Israel have taken the step to finish Hezbollah once and for all.....but maybe also, if they take over, or (as EightAce claims) the infrastructure will be ruined so bad it will take years to recover, then either a UN force will move in there for 'humanitarian purposes'....of course, the US will have a say in that as well.

This would mean Syria is surrounded by countries that are allies with the US and coalition forces.

The last 5 years have been like moving chess pieces into position......is there going to be a big final showdown with the "Axis of Evil"?
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

antman said:
You are in danger of frothing at the mouth Liverpool. I never said anywhere I was on "neither side". In fact I stated my own position very clearly in this post http://www.puntroadend.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=22715.msg451994#msg451994 in this thread. Go and read it again.

Antman,
Yes.....I was mistaken.
You did say your position on that post...that Israel was a mistake.
Whether or not it was does not matter now, as it is a recognised state, and has been a member of the UN for over 50 years.
All I ask Antman, and what my main argument with you has been, is that you keep referring to a 'balanced view', when all your posts have been anti-Israel, if anything. That's not being balanced, thats all.

antman said:
You then find "evidence" whereever you can to support your position which usually means googling something some Islamic nutter said once.

As I've stated before mate...these 'Islamic nutters' are running countries....one on the edge of having nuclear weapons!!!
I'm not making anything up, or, as you have claimed before, taken comments out of context.
These 'Islamic nutters' are leaders of countries that have millions of inhabitants. Their comments should not be just ignored, or their threats swept under the carpet because we do not want to face reality. They are not joking. They have no regard for life. This is reality.

antman said:
Oh sorry, guess that makes me a fence-sitter again. In fact to you anyone who sees that there is blame and fault on both sides must be a "fence-sitter".

Like I have said Antman....that's so fair of you to acknowledge blame on both sides...but that's where it ends.
It's a pity that all your posts only seem to be aimed at one side of the 'fence', full of anti-USA/Israeli sentiments.
You may, as you claim...and you do...acknowledge parts of Phantom's posts, but however then go on to argue what big-bad Israel are doing to the poor Lebanese. Any why we should understand Hezbollah. And what the US are doing in Iraq, as well.




eight ace said:
The article I posted described an event that took place and the occurence of that event does not appear to have been challenged by anyone - that is, the destruction of the fishing fleet.

Yep...no problem.

eight ace said:
Your article asserts, amongst other things, that the fishing fleet was destroyed for a particular reason - that the town was a Hizbollah stronghold.

Yep...no problem.

eight ace said:
You go on to assert that attacks took place from the boats - although there is nothing other than your bald assertions to support that

No...I said MAYBE.
But my argument was that you posted an article pointing out something that happened....I have no problem with that. My article pointed out that the town was a Hezbollah stronghold.
So just a wild assumption here...that if a town is a Hezbollah stronghold, then just maybe that's why the fishing fleet got bombed, as part of this conflict against Hezbollah strongholds, yes?


eight ace said:
As it happens, I support Israel's right to exist and its right to defend itself - and I am no fan of Hizbollah. A mistake commonly made amongst the right is that if one does not support their causes fully, then one fully supports those of their enemy. But as I have said before, I see no reason why the government of Israel should be held to the same standards as Hizbollah. On too many occasions in the past the IDF has been thoroughly unaccountable for a range of atrocities and has excused itself on the basis that it was reasonably acting to defend Israel. I reject the assertion that everything that has been taking place in Lebanon at the moment is in reasonable defence of Israel. This incident with the boats is a small example of that.

I think if you aren't on one side, then yes, you are on the 'other side'. This is war. It's not something you can have $1-each-way.
And totally disagree with you about not holding Israel to the same standards as Hezbollah....why should Israel show recognition of Lebanese borders and the hunt for Hezbollah into Lebanon, when the Lebanese Government have let Hezbollah do what they like, without restriction...whether it be suicide bombers or rocket attacks, and the kidnapping of soldiers as bargaining chips which led to this latest conflict?

And what Israel are doing now....well, you are right, it isn't for the defence of Israel......its for the well-being of Israel into the future, from that side of its borders.
In the past, there have been ceasefires, which over time, have been ignored by Hezbollah, as they have only one aim. The destruction of Israel. It's in their charter.
This time, Israel have said "enough is enough", and I agree with them.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

So you agree, then, that you were engaged in purely pointless speculation. Oh, and your 'maybe' does not qualify your assertion, by the way. You got it wrong again, I'm not on any side in this conflict. I refuse to support atrocities from the IDF in the same way I refuse to support atrocities from Hizbollah. The fact that Israeli atrocities take place using PGMs dropped from F16s does not diminsh their true status.

So its for the "well-being" of Israel - and in pursuit of that well-being presumably anything goes in your world?

Once again, the article I posted described an event that took place. The occurence of that event appears to be unchallenged and physical evidence exists for its occurence. The article you posted asserted a reason for that occurence. The reason was purely speculative and no basis whatsoever was provided for that speculation. You then took the speculation a step further. I have no reason to accept your speculation because it is nothing more than that.

Can you now see the difference between the nature of the two articles posted? The article I posted asserted nothing more than that the event took place. My addition to that was that there appeared to be no military reason for that event. Your article did challenge that view, but only in the most flippant manner. That you assert a particular position provides no reason at all for me to accept that position.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Have been reading this for a while, and everyone seems to make sense at some point, and talk non-sense in others. Both sides can argue the truth to suit and support there goals. Both can also mislead. This will never end in todays world. I cant imagine the grief of someone who has lost a child, I doubt that I could ever forgive, not that strong.

People who suggest that the IDF have more moral obligations in war than there counterpart, thank goodness for Hezbollah that they are taking on the Israeli's, rather than the Communists or Facists of our recent past. This "War on Terror" would have ended long ago. :-\ :(
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

eight ace said:
You got it wrong again, I'm not on any side in this conflict. I refuse to support atrocities from the IDF in the same way I refuse to support atrocities from Hizbollah. 

Eightace,
Do you actually remember what you say half the time? ???
You say you are on neither side, but like Antman, only post links/articles/views that are against Israel and what they are doing.
Secondly, you again say you are all for a balanced view and are on neither side, and then say something like this:
eight ace said:
As I said earlier, I see no reason why I should apply the same standards to the IDF as I do to Hizbollah. Nor should you. Assymetric warfare has its limits for any legitimate defence force.
I would have thought, that if one was on neither side, then one would treat both equally...unlike your views.

eight ace said:
Once again, the article I posted described an event that took place. The occurence of that event appears to be unchallenged and physical evidence exists for its occurence. The article you posted asserted a reason for that occurence. The reason was purely speculative and no basis whatsoever was provided for that speculation. You then took the speculation a step further. I have no reason to accept your speculation because it is nothing more than that.
The article I posted asserted nothing more than that the event took place. My addition to that was that there appeared to be no military reason for that event. Your article did challenge that view, but only in the most flippant manner. That you assert a particular position provides no reason at all for me to accept that position.

Oh....there APPEARED to be no military reason for that event...?
So you know? You have facts to base that on?
Sounds like one of those "flippant" comments, you have accused me of.
I would have thought that was fairly speculative too, seeing you had no basis to come to those findings...but hey...how can I expect someone to judge people by the same rules, when that same person judges Hezbollah/IDF by different standards, whilst preaching the 'fair and balanced view' concept.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Goddamn Liverpool - Do you understand what you read? *smile*ing norah, I could go on this ludicroous loop with you for days. I am not going to try and explain it again, work it out for yourself. In any event, what I said was that I was on neither side. You can believe that or not - You must be aware by now what your opinion means to me. Is it really such a stretch that I should expect more of the military arm of a nation state than I would of a terrorist organisation? Can you get your tiny little mind around that?
 
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