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Palestine and Israel
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Hey Willo, this latest Sam Harris podcast is for you. It pretty much supports much of what you have been tirelessly articulating. If ignorant fools like Sam Harris and Coleman Hughes were posting here they’d be copping the same criticisms and aspersions upon their intellect as you … hahahahaha…
The claim on this thread that this is all about Israel and not jews is transparently shallow and sadly racist. Far Left wing dogma. Regressive politics. Dull.
Why after Oct 7 would jews all over the world suddenly be subjected to a surge in hate crimes and violence when they are not living in Israel. They are just jews trying to study at school, make their way to work, live their life etc etc
There were some anti Palestinian incidents too but Aljazeera, Reuters etc are swimming in stats on this. And they are overwhelming.
Ezra Klein, an American jew a fabulous journo who works with the New York Times is left wing and a great public sympathizer for the Palestinian cause - ironically like most of the jews the Hamas led Palestinian men slaughtered and mutilated on Oct 7 - and even he with all his well known pro Palestinian credentials said in the current anti semitic environment he feared for his family in US because they are jews. He had to change his usual behaviours.
This is a 90 minutes podcast by Harris but the first 50 odd minutes are free before the paywall kicks in.
The claim on this thread that this is all about Israel and not jews is transparently shallow and sadly racist. Far Left wing dogma. Regressive politics. Dull.
Why after Oct 7 would jews all over the world suddenly be subjected to a surge in hate crimes and violence when they are not living in Israel. They are just jews trying to study at school, make their way to work, live their life etc etc
There were some anti Palestinian incidents too but Aljazeera, Reuters etc are swimming in stats on this. And they are overwhelming.
Ezra Klein, an American jew a fabulous journo who works with the New York Times is left wing and a great public sympathizer for the Palestinian cause - ironically like most of the jews the Hamas led Palestinian men slaughtered and mutilated on Oct 7 - and even he with all his well known pro Palestinian credentials said in the current anti semitic environment he feared for his family in US because they are jews. He had to change his usual behaviours.
This is a 90 minutes podcast by Harris but the first 50 odd minutes are free before the paywall kicks in.
Glantone, this is about Israel and not about Jews.
It is about the actions of Israel, not the actions of the Jewish people.
It is Israel which occupies Gaza and the West Bank and which is currently waging war on the civilian population of Gaza, not the Jewish people.
Yes, there has been a rise in anti-semitism, and everyone needs to stand against this. There are anti-semitic elements amongst those who support self determination for Palestinians, they need to be rooted out.
Similarly there is racism amongst Israelis against Palestinians.
But the claim that somehow supporting self-determination for Palestinians is racist against all Jews is a deflection, the problem here is Israel and the fact that Israel exists where Palestinians used to live. There needs to be a proper settlement of this situation. I have proffered a couple in earlier pages.
I am well aware of the rise in anti-semitism, I live in a part of Melbourne with a large Jewish population. I have Jewish friends. We don't have a Halal aisle in my supermarket, we have a Kosher aisle. I abhor the fact that local Jewish schools, synagogues etc have to have security out the front. But to conflate this with support for Palestinian self determination is wrong and does nothing to further debate over a solution to the Israel/Palestine dispute.
DS
It is about the actions of Israel, not the actions of the Jewish people.
It is Israel which occupies Gaza and the West Bank and which is currently waging war on the civilian population of Gaza, not the Jewish people.
Yes, there has been a rise in anti-semitism, and everyone needs to stand against this. There are anti-semitic elements amongst those who support self determination for Palestinians, they need to be rooted out.
Similarly there is racism amongst Israelis against Palestinians.
But the claim that somehow supporting self-determination for Palestinians is racist against all Jews is a deflection, the problem here is Israel and the fact that Israel exists where Palestinians used to live. There needs to be a proper settlement of this situation. I have proffered a couple in earlier pages.
I am well aware of the rise in anti-semitism, I live in a part of Melbourne with a large Jewish population. I have Jewish friends. We don't have a Halal aisle in my supermarket, we have a Kosher aisle. I abhor the fact that local Jewish schools, synagogues etc have to have security out the front. But to conflate this with support for Palestinian self determination is wrong and does nothing to further debate over a solution to the Israel/Palestine dispute.
DS
Hey Gt,
As soon as i see a column, a candidate, podcast or show
Say 'sense' - making, common, talking,
I dont bother.
Its the equal biggest red flag for me to not waste my time: along with 'tells it like it is' and 'truth'.
I wont go into or debate why, it should be self evident.
Anyway, no worries you read and post it.
But heres the thing that confusing me - how the Left Right thing is getting very blurry.
Our own culture war
I watch sky news on thursday nights. I stick my head into another echo chamber.
And they are really unconditionally pro-israel
(They also say the new GG is a 'leftist activist')
So Murdoch and Sky are right, right?
I thought anti-semitism was a right wing POV?
hitler is the dustin martin of the far right, right? And he has a historical mortage over anti-semiticism, right?
Or is that a subservient RWPOV to killing 30,000 poor brown people?
Had the right done a bit of a dosey-do?
Im a bit confused.
To be clear on my POV; i indentify as left, i think Hamas are a bunch of evil *smile*, i think Netanyahu and his cabinet are a bunch of evil *smile*, i think the IDF response is criminally disproportionate, i think Palestians and Israelis deserve peace and self-governance and freedom, but palestinians need is far more acute at this point in time.
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Wrong wrong wrong . I don't know how many times I should say it but it is so wrong that it needs to be said multiple times. It is also deeply offensive to so many people who are humanitarians without a racist bone in their bodies.
David articulated it well. It is really important that this false diversion is called out.
I have been a supporter of Palestinian self determination for over 40 years and as I have explained to Willo I know people who have worked in aid in Gaza and the West Bank. I have never once met a person involved in all this time who could in any way be considered racist against Jews. In fact many Jews are involved themselves.
Being told I am wrong about something is fine, but being told that because I believe in something I am racist when the very idea of racism is so abhorrent to me, is just deeply offensive.
Anti semitism should be rooted out, but so should all forms of racism.
I’m still confused how people can say it’s about Israel, it’s not about Jews.
When they say Israel..Do they mean Israeli Jews? It cant be about the state without the people
Or
When they say its not about Jews, do they mean Jews world wide?
Most of the slogans I see, say “death to Israel” and “kill Jews” they don’t just say “kill Israeli Jews”
I”m not saying anyone here says that. I’m asking a specific question . When they say or refer to “Israel” does that include Israeli Jews?
When they say Israel..Do they mean Israeli Jews? It cant be about the state without the people
Or
When they say its not about Jews, do they mean Jews world wide?
Most of the slogans I see, say “death to Israel” and “kill Jews” they don’t just say “kill Israeli Jews”
I”m not saying anyone here says that. I’m asking a specific question . When they say or refer to “Israel” does that include Israeli Jews?
It’s a good point.
Jews worldwide are seen as complicit. No doubt the majority do sympathise with Israel and its policies. Some don’t.
Meanwhile Palestinians and their supporters can organise marches, hate speech, death slogans worldwide and attract sympathy. Some probably are against it! The absolute majority are for it.
You only have to look at the protest marches in Britain, even in Australia.
I wouldn’t accuse everyone of hating all Jews, as opposed to just hating Israel/Israeli Jews but there are plenty who do. Anti semitism is still alive., and in many countries, actively encouraged.
I think you can have a situation where people absolutely detest what’s happening to Palestinians and hate Israel (and its people, one is the same as the other, you can’t just have an empty state) but not hate all Jews. At least that’s what they say.
Probably akin to saying they hate Palestinians but not muslims worldwide. Even though you know where their loyalties lay.
But a persons truth lays with them I guess.
A scenario
A dictator becomes US President. He has totalitarian tendencies and over a period time starts changing the country through complicit politicians and courts. This President joins with the Russian President to annex Ukraine, he gives orders to shoot people crossing the Mexican US border on site which are carried out and he turns a blind eye to a Chinese invasion of Taiwan including stopping supplying arms to them.
I become a massive and vocal critic of the US government and their policies calling out what I see as their direct involvement and sanctioning of murder of innocent people.
Am I now racist against American people ? Of course not.
I am anti what Putin is doing in Ukraine, am I a racist against Russians? Of course not.
There is no logic to this argument that people who are anti what the Israeli government is doing and has done over many years are anti-semitic. Some people are for sure but most are not and what is also undoubtedly true is that some jews who support their government are racist towards Palestinians. We have had Israeli political leaders say Palestinians are not humans.
Why did you quote me?
I asked a question, nothing you’ve written answers any part of what I wrote.
I never mentioned anything about being racist.
I can understand if people don’t want to answer, but please don’t confuse the questions with something else .
I would have thought it a straight forward question that could elicit a straight forward reply
I thought this bit of historical fact, from an Jewish historian, was really interesting and gave a fair bit of information that I had no idea about. Fortunately, the talk moves way beyond the click-bait title ME has given it.
I hope there are some that find it interesting, while I am sure there will be others who decry the gentleman as an antisemitic, or some such...
Posting for those who are interested.
I hope there are some that find it interesting, while I am sure there will be others who decry the gentleman as an antisemitic, or some such...
Posting for those who are interested.
You asked this
I’m still confused how people can say it’s about Israel, it’s not about Jews.
When they say Israel..Do they mean Israeli Jews? It cant be about the state without the people
I gave you a specific scenario that clearly outlines why the people are separate from the state. If you can’t understand that there is nothing I can do to help you
You still haven’t answered the question I asked about Israel.
A specific scenario? It was a dogs breakfast trying to workout what you were talking about. Just nonsensical.
There is no dictator running Israel. For anyone to say Netanyahu is a dictator is just using that as a copout. The Knesset is a duly elected parliament.
You can’t have a State without people. No State would exist without the people. That’s just a nonsense.
Is Israel a Jewish State? Yes or no, will do
I can’t understand your scenario. But the one thing you could do is answer the actual question without some mixed up fable as a reply.
Thats just dodging the question. If you don’t want to answer it, just don’t.
I don’t need help, just an honest answer.
It seems like if a poster /s admits that Israel is in fact a Jewish State, they believe they will be accused of being racists.
It’s not something I’ve said at all.
As I said if you can't understand the point I am making I can't help you Willo. The use of examples to make a point is one used by people all the time, it is a perfectly legitimate tool to make a theoretical point. I should have learned before that you are too literal to understand the abstract.
I'm not dodging anything, you are either willfully choosing not to understand the simple difference between a state and individuals or you don't have the intellectual capability to understand it. One or the other
Israel is a state and it has a majority of jewish people but that fact has no relevance to why I am against it's actions. I dislike Netanyahu as well and the question is why and the reason is because of what he is doing, has done and the reasons he is doing it. I don't dislike him because he is Jewish. I don't dislike Putin because he is Russian.
There is a difference between what a person does and in the case of a nation what that nation does and the individuals that make up that nation. Many on this site hate what the state of Israel is doing and has done because of that, not because the people are jewish. If the citizens of Israel were Spanish christians I would still be against what the state of Israel is doing to exactly the same extent.
If you can't understand that then there simply is no point continuing because I know what I believe and I know why I believe it and those beliefs have nothing whatsoever with the fact that Israel is a country made up of a majority of jewish people.
The term anti-semitic has been cheapened by Israel. The way they accuse anyone of anti-semitism if they oppose the Israeli occupations and Israeli killing in Gaza has cheapened the term.
How many people here have been accused of being anti-arab because they criticised the actions of Hamas? None, because we all know that it would be a ridiculous extrapolation.
But it is the Israeli state which is cheapening the term anti-semitism. They are promoting a definition of anti-semitism which equates criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.
FFS they even describe jews, such as the film-maker Jonathan Glazer who was making a speech after winning an Oscar for a film about the holocaust, an anti-semite. They label rabbis who oppose Israel's continued occupation and killing as anti-semitic. The label concentration camp survivor Stephane Hessel anti-semitic because he criticised the actions of the Israeli government.
This can only encourage those who really are anti-semitic to continue their vilification of jews.
DS
How many people here have been accused of being anti-arab because they criticised the actions of Hamas? None, because we all know that it would be a ridiculous extrapolation.
But it is the Israeli state which is cheapening the term anti-semitism. They are promoting a definition of anti-semitism which equates criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.
FFS they even describe jews, such as the film-maker Jonathan Glazer who was making a speech after winning an Oscar for a film about the holocaust, an anti-semite. They label rabbis who oppose Israel's continued occupation and killing as anti-semitic. The label concentration camp survivor Stephane Hessel anti-semitic because he criticised the actions of the Israeli government.
This can only encourage those who really are anti-semitic to continue their vilification of jews.
DS
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So why not just answer the question instead of making such a convoluted scenario?
Yes I don’t need any abstract, just a simple reply would do
Well why not just answer a simple question?
Who The hell is talking about a state and individuals? It was about a state and the people of that state, never an individual.
It’s not one or the other at all. You say a state without people. I claim you can’t have that. An empty state, it’s nonsense
Right, so it’s a Jewish State. That was a simple answer.. I’ve never said it was.
Netanyahu isn’t a dictator. He is the PM. He’s not even the head of state, I think Isaac Hertzog is. Netanyahu answers to the Knesset, the House of Representatives of Israel. They make the laws and policy.
I’ve never mentioned “ a person”. Never has anyone else that I know of. It may have been a people ie Palestinians, Israelis, or relligions ie Jews and Muslims.
That becomes the big question once again. Is it a religious war? Many believe so. Iran, Syria, Harmas, Hisbollah all at some time have mentioned “death to all Jews” “ the river to the sea”. What do they mean by that? Do they earn the State of Israel” is just removed miraculously but the people remain behind? Somehow I don’t think so.
Is it a territorial war? I believe it is that as well, but at the expense of the Israeli Jewish nation. What do they or other people believe would happen to the Israeli Jewish nation? Poof, a cloud of smoke and they’ve gone off to heaven? Somehow I don’t so.
Well they aren’t. No doubt you would be.
But the fact is it’s a Jewish State. Not an empty state like a block of Lego, but a State with a people whose religion is the antipathy of Muslim Palestinians as well as Hamas, Hezbollah , Iran and to a lesser extent Yemeni Houthis, Syria etc. All affiliated with muslim terror groups.
That gives you some idea what it’s all about. Even if you disagree with it! the facts say otherwise
Thats fine. I respect your opinion and decision. I don’t force you to answer anything at anytime.
Im glad you recognise that Israel is a State made up of a majority of Jewish people.
That it’s not an empty State.
ipso facto, a Jewish State.
After all that we finally got to the crux of it.
the question is a strawman.
you still don't understand. I give up on this.
I didn't say it was a Jewish state. I said it was a state with a majority of jewish people
There you go being literal again, completely missing the point. I have no idea why your comment has any relevance. I was differentiating between Netanyahu the man and the fact is a jew but I guess that's too difficult for you to comprehend.
Again I am explaining and you are being literal
It is not a religious war because palestinian nationhood and self determination has nothing to do with religion. People/groups will always try and involve religion, Israel does and some Arab states do but at its crux it is about territory and the rights of a group of people removed from their land. Israel exists and will continue to exist and that it isn't is only really spoken about by extremists these days. We are talking now about the land they continue to take away and have taken away in the last 30 years or so.
Again you have missed the point but I have made it so many times I am not going to do so again.
This also misses the point which is that the fact that the majority of the people in Israel are jewish is not the reason why I support the rights of the Palestinians. ( Does the fact that Australia is a majority anglo/celts mean we are an anglo/celt state?)
This whole last set of conversations was based on a suggestion/statement that the fact that jews make up the majority of the Israeli population means that those who do not support the actions of the State of Israel are doing so because their population is majority jewish and is rooted in racism towards jews.
I completely reject that premise
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