Palestine and Israel

[Sintiger]

Yes I did. You were talking about people being homeless. I pointed out the fact their seemed to be plenty of flats awarded to anyone who kills a Jew.
Obviously there are plenty there, it’s who decides who gets them

It’s nearly funny when I put up facts they are just dismissed.
Of course they should try to do something. As I said if they’d continue in this vein, the future looks grim for the next 50 years. What do think they should do? Rest on their laurels
They do play the victim. It’s always someone’s else’s fault. Usually Israel’s. Others have made a life for themselves and their families.
I didn’t say it “was their fault because they’re corrupt” . But you can’t deny there is a hell of a lot of corruption in the upper echelons

I haven’t downplayed anything. Just provided facts..

It’s called a difference of opinion. Once again, I haven’t downplayed anything. You're ultra sensitive when it comes to anything that shows not all are suffering. Some of the suffering is at the hands of those who rule the people. How can you deny that fact?

1. I didn’t mention homelessness. I mentioned youth unemployment, reliance on aid and poverty. I provided a link to a Gallup poll about conditions in Gaza prior to October 7 which may have mentioned it.
Anyway to suggest that because those involved in October 7 were offered a flat means there must be plenty is not even worth commenting on, which is why is didn’t comment on it.
I refute “facts” when I think they have any relevance to anything, I don’t bother with furphies.
2. I didn’t say they shouldn’t do anything. People in poverty and societies in general should always try to do something to help themselves. Why would you suggest I don’t agree with that?
What I object to is that this is then used to minimise need and suffering. As if the gazans have the ability to solve the issues without significant outside help. They can’t, it’s not possible.
Development and aid is delivered now in a way that is also about empowering local populations, training them and using funds to create economic activity. That was no different in Gaza but of course now it is about keeping people alive.
3. Sometimes there is a good reason people play the victim and that’s because they are victims. So much of this is Israel’s fault, that why they get blamed.
The words and inference you use about some making a life is standard stuff about people in need. “Some are successful, why aren’t you…”. People are different , not all have the same capabilities.
4. I am not ultra sensitive about anything showing not all are suffering. Of course not all suffered in Gaza (they are all suffering now) but what I am sensitive about is using that to diminish the suffering of the majority of the people. Not all suffer …so what? How does that change the suffering of others? Some have suffered because of a poor government ..so what? How does that change the suffering of others?

People in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem have suffered badly because of the policies and the actions of the Israeli government well before anything that happened on October 7. That’s a fact

Btw it is 150,000 Palestinians who worked in Israel, not 400,000. Stopping that certainly hurt the Palestinians but is also certainly not the only reason there are employment issues in Gaza and the West Bank.

 

[Willo]

1. I didn’t mention homelessness. I mentioned youth unemployment, reliance on aid and poverty. I provided a link to a Gallup poll about conditions in Gaza prior to October 7 which may have mentioned it.

It did, which is why I commented.
Up to 400,000 or whatever the actual figure is employed in Israel. I wonder how much work is/was available in Gaza or the WB?, or even Egypt near the Sinai, close to Rafah Gate..

Anyway to suggest that because those involved in October 7 were offered a flat means there must be plenty is not even worth commenting on, which is why is didn’t comment on it.

No I didn’t mention those involved in the Oct 7 atrocities. I meant anytime prior to that. Well documented that a flat and a lumpsome of money or pension is/was paid to those who killed a Jew.
The “martyrs fund”

I refute “facts” when I think they have any relevance to anything, I don’t bother with furphies.

Me too! But I like to dispel furphies

2. I didn’t say they shouldn’t do anything. People in poverty and societies in general should always try to do something to help themselves. Why would you suggest I don’t agree with that?

Exactly. We then agree on that.

This is from your post #2078
Your post that I LOL’d at is full of the uninformed opinions many have about the underprivileged, not just in Gaza but all over the world. They should just do something, they are lazy, they are playing the victim, it is their fault because they are all corrupt. I’ve heard it all before.
They’re your words, not mine.

What I object to is that this is then used to minimise need and suffering. As if the gazans have the ability to solve the issues without significant outside help. They can’t, it’s not possible.

Well don’t blame me. I have already stated they should/could have got those countries that are signatories to the Abraham Accords, plus Saudi involved.
Israel was keen to have those countries sign and those countries and Saudi could have used that as a lever.
At least I came up with an original idea. No one else has.

Development and aid is delivered now in a way that is also about empowering local populations, training them and using funds to create economic activity. That was no different in Gaza but of course now it is about keeping people alive.

Good if it’s the local population and not the warlords taking control of it. Yet to see any proof that was happening

3. Sometimes there is a good reason people play the victim and that’s because they are victims. So much of this is Israel’s fault, that why they get blamed.
The words and inference you use about some making a life is standard stuff about people in need. “Some are successful, why aren’t you…”. People are different , not all have the same capabilities.

Yes, as I said “it’s all Israel’s fault” and has been for 75 years. No I get that not all are blessed with the same capabilities. But then there is a need to want to improve your lot in life. Rather than have generations of victims

4. I am not ultra sensitive about anything showing not all are suffering. Of course not all suffered in Gaza (they are all suffering now) but what I am sensitive about is using that to diminish the suffering of the majority of the people. Not all suffer …so what? How does that change the suffering of others? Some have suffered because of a poor government ..so what? How does that change the suffering of others?

Well the facts are these
When people say it’s the biggest open air prison in the world, the people are victims of genocide, they’re victims of the occupation.
An all the rest of the rhetoric, the truth as you say is “not all suffered in Gaza” so that is a fact. Then” how does that change the suffering of others”. Well where is the difference. Some get food, some get houses. Who actually decides that? Who actually decides who works in Israel? Who works in Gaza? Who makes decisions that affect the people?

People in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem have suffered badly because of the policies and the actions of the Israeli government well before anything that happened on October 7. That’s a fact

What were their own rulers doing to improve the people’s lot in life? They had 75 years of aid..foodstuffs, money, materials coming in.
Who decided where that went?
How much money and material went into the building of tunnels?
How much aid was siphoned off for the materials to build the tunnels?
How much aid money was siphoned off to build the tunnels?
How much money did it cost to build the tunnels?
How much money and material went into the mansions Hamas head honchos lived in?
Try looking at what actually came into the country and was siphoned off away from the people it was meant for.
Thats called corruption. Which means the aid earmarked for the needy never got to them.

The Israeli government caused all that of course. *smile*.

Btw it is 150,000 Palestinians who worked in Israel, not 400,000. Stopping that certainly hurt the Palestinians but is also certainly not the only reason there are employment issues in Gaza and the West Bank.

As I stated there are different sources with how many Palestinians were employed to work in Israel. I didn’t make the figure of 400,000 up. It was in this link

Almost 400,000 Palestinians have lost jobs due to war, report says

Many have little or no income after the closure of crossings into Israel and restrictions on workers, according to ILO

www.theguardian.com

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/18/israels-ban-on-palestinian-workers-is-hurting-its-economy-central-bank.html

If it was 150,000 or up to 400,00, it’s a moot point now.

 

[DavidSSS]

Of course they should try to do something. As I said if they’d continue in this vein, the future looks grim for the next 50 years.

So, what strategy do you suggest will get the Palestinians a state which is not emasculated by Israel?

Meanwhile, Israel uses starvation as a strategy:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...amine-charge-israel-mounting-evidence-un-gaza

DS

 

[eZyT]

back in he 90's when I did a fair bit of OS travel,

I'd come across hordes of obnoxious Israelis. it wasn't just me that found them obnoxious,

everyone did. I got told 'no room at the Inn' several times, until I pulled out my passport, and then there was heaps of room.

I tried to understand, this apparent anti-semitism. I talked to them (wasn't easy), and realised they all had PTSD from their military service, shooting Palestinian babies in the face. they wanted to get off their face for as long as their post-military payout would last, in the safety of numbers, with people who understood them.

Now I dont profess to understand this conflict.

but I know that there's only really victims.

yeah, a spectrum of victims; PTSD and self-loathing and snorting heaps of cocaine in Colombia would be a cakewalk compared to having your family bombed and watching your kids be starved to death.

but there's no real winners.

war is unrelentingly horrible and it is always old *smile* waging it, profiting from it and unaffected by it.

If only we had an accurate *smile* test, and could kill little *smile* babies at birth.

 

[Willo]

So, what strategy do you suggest will get the Palestinians a state which is not emasculated by Israel?

Meanwhile, Israel uses starvation as a strategy:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...amine-charge-israel-mounting-evidence-un-gaza

DS

I’ve already made the suggestion several times.

 

[Sintiger]

It did, which is why I commented.
Up to 400,000 or whatever the actual figure is employed in Israel. I wonder how much work is/was available in Gaza or the WB?, or even Egypt near the Sinai, close to Rafah Gate..

No I didn’t mention those involved in the Oct 7 atrocities. I meant anytime prior to that. Well documented that a flat and a lumpsome of money or pension is/was paid to those who killed a Jew.
The “martyrs fund”

Me too! But I like to dispel furphies

Exactly. We then agree on that.

This is from your post #2078
Your post that I LOL’d at is full of the uninformed opinions many have about the underprivileged, not just in Gaza but all over the world. They should just do something, they are lazy, they are playing the victim, it is their fault because they are all corrupt. I’ve heard it all before.
They’re your words, not mine.

Well don’t blame me. I have already stated they should/could have got those countries that are signatories to the Abraham Accords, plus Saudi involved.
Israel was keen to have those countries sign and those countries and Saudi could have used that as a lever.
At least I came up with an original idea. No one else has.

Good if it’s the local population and not the warlords taking control of it. Yet to see any proof that was happening

Yes, as I said “it’s all Israel’s fault” and has been for 75 years. No I get that not all are blessed with the same capabilities. But then there is a need to want to improve your lot in life. Rather than have generations of victims

Well the facts are these
When people say it’s the biggest open air prison in the world, the people are victims of genocide, they’re victims of the occupation.
An all the rest of the rhetoric, the truth as you say is “not all suffered in Gaza” so that is a fact. Then” how does that change the suffering of others”. Well where is the difference. Some get food, some get houses. Who actually decides that? Who actually decides who works in Israel? Who works in Gaza? Who makes decisions that affect the people?

What were their own rulers doing to improve the people’s lot in life? They had 75 years of aid..foodstuffs, money, materials coming in.
Who decided where that went?
How much money and material went into the building of tunnels?
How much aid was siphoned off for the materials to build the tunnels?
How much aid money was siphoned off to build the tunnels?
How much money did it cost to build the tunnels?
How much money and material went into the mansions Hamas head honchos lived in?
Try looking at what actually came into the country and was siphoned off away from the people it was meant for.
Thats called corruption. Which means the aid earmarked for the needy never got to them.

The Israeli government caused all that of course. *smile*.


As I stated there are different sources with how many Palestinians were employed to work in Israel. I didn’t make the figure of 400,000 up. It was in this link

Almost 400,000 Palestinians have lost jobs due to war, report says

Many have little or no income after the closure of crossings into Israel and restrictions on workers, according to ILO

www.theguardian.com

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/18/israels-ban-on-palestinian-workers-is-hurting-its-economy-central-bank.html

If it was 150,000 or up to 400,00, it’s a moot point now.

There is no point replying to this

We all get it. Israel is not responsible for anything, it’s all the fault of the lazy Palestinians playing victim.

I know you will probably come back and say it’s because I can’t refute your points but that’s not true. At some point it becomes futile, a waste of energy. I’ve reached that point.

 

[Willo]

Interesting.
UNRWA has a budget of over $1.2 billion pa. No audit, no system of management or any procedural governance.

If there are doubts about its role, with aid funds suspended and investigations ongoing, why doesn’t the UN disband it and let UNICEF and the UNHCR and others bodies do the aid work.
Other aid angencies already work there now. Give the suspended UNRWA aid money to them. At least it will be getting to those who need it most. Regardless of the aid agency involved
Those who are honourable, hardworking aid workers former UNRWA workers could be vetted and still do the aid work there.
I’m sure there are a large number of aid workers who are there for all the right reasons, risking their lives for others.

Just as I’m sure there are others with a different agenda.
If the UNRWA has been therefor over 75 years, its highly likely there’s an element of the Stockholm Syndrome with some of them.

Transparency and audits of aid money and supplies would ensure that gets where it’s supposed to. The people who need it most
I’d like to see a breakdown of all the aid that is donated. Firstly to UNRWA itself.(mainly form the USA, EU, Britain, Australia, Canada (and other mainly other western countries) Then by other Islamic countries .
It would be interesting.
Id like to find the article by John Ware in his investigation of Hamas Secret Financial Empire, It should make interesting reading.
Interesting take by Ruth Deech

 

[DavidSSS]

I’ve already made the suggestion several times.

Your suggestion seems to be that Palestinians should stop complaining and leave. I see no reason why they should just accept being thrown out of their country.

Still, that's Israel's agenda, and they are trying to implement it in plain sight.

DS

 

[Willo]

Your suggestion seems to be that Palestinians should stop complaining and leave. I see no reason why they should just accept being thrown out of their country.

Still, that's Israel's agenda, and they are trying to implement it in plain sight.

DS

Show me where I suggested that. You’re just being mischievous.
You know what I suggested, several times.

 

[Tigaman]

Was Russia & China's turn to veto this week. The Veto clause has to go with majority rule to be applied.

 

[DavidSSS]

Famine in Gaza, and all because the Israeli military is blocking supplies, along with some of their population.

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2024/03/20/in-gazas-north-a-full-blown-famine-is-imminent/

Is this genocide yet, or do they have to starve a certain proportion of the population before we say so?

DS

 

[Willo]

Famine in Gaza, and all because the Israeli military is blocking supplies, along with some of their population.

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2024/03/20/in-gazas-north-a-full-blown-famine-is-imminent/

Is this genocide yet, or do they have to starve a certain proportion of the population before we say so?

DS

You can understand the need to inspect truck cargo to ensure there are no weapons or ammunition or such on board.
Even on the Egyptian side of Rafah there are long lines of trucks waiting.

Such a sad state of affairs and still the innocent suffer.

Hamas could hand over those innocents they abducted and surrender.

 

[DavidSSS]

You can understand the need to inspect truck cargo to ensure there are no weapons or ammunition or such on board.
Even on the Egyptian side of Rafah there are long lines of trucks waiting.

Such a sad state of affairs and still the innocent suffer.

Hamas could hand over those innocents they abducted and surrender.

As I said, your solution is to give Gaza to Israel and let the Palestinians rot in Sinai.

Maybe the Israelis could release all of the Palestinians they are holding without charge, but we know they won't, they like arresting Palestinians for the hell of it, holding them for a long time and then, if they ever get a trial, it is in front of a military tribunal.

DS

 

[Willo]

As I said, your solution is to give Gaza to Israel and let the Palestinians rot in Sinai.

Ahh you keep saying it, so that’s what my solution is. Why then do you keep asking me what my solution is if you’ve already decided it.
I thought you had already read several times what I suggested. Obviously it goes in and out fairly quickly in that noggin of yours

Maybe the Israelis could release all of the Palestinians they are holding without charge, but we know they won't, they like arresting Palestinians for the hell of it, holding them for a long time and then, if they ever get a trial, it is in front of a military tribunal.

DS

Dunno what that has to do with food aid getting through.

Maybe it’s time for your usual rant. Of you go, you’ve been quite reserved for a few days and must champing on the bit to cut loose and relieve some of that built up pressure on your neurons.
Heres a few trigger points to help
Starvatiion
Blockade
Apartheid
Ethnic Cleansing
Genocide
Occupation
Disproportionate response
Hamas are great
Netanyahu
Stolen land
One state
Two state
Solution
Hostages are only Israelis, its not about them

Now off you go. We haven’t read or heard of any of that before.

 

[DavidSSS]

Yeah, keep deflecting, you have no idea, ignore history and no solution apart from an expanding Israel which won't solve the problem.

DS

 

[Willo]

Yeah, keep deflecting, you have no idea, ignore history and no solution apart from an expanding Israel which won't solve the problem.

DS

No deflecting. You asked, I answered. It may not be what you want to hear that’s all.

 

[Sintiger]

Aid workers killed in “tragic accident” in Gaza. “ These things happen in war” says Netanyahu.

There is no excuse for this, they were delivering food and aid to starving people.

The IDF can pin point targeted attacks on individuals but can’t prevent murdering aid workers …bull *smile*.

They don’t care

 

[MD Jazz]

Aid workers killed in “tragic accident” in Gaza. “ These things happen in war” says Netanyahu.

There is no excuse for this, they were delivering food and aid to starving people.

The IDF can pin point targeted attacks on individuals but can’t prevent murdering aid workers …bull *smile*.

They don’t care

They have a lot of tragic "accidents" (how can they be accidents when Isarel are using deadly weapons around civilians - are they really accidents) yet nothing changes in their strategy? How many people have now died in tragic Israeli accidents?

 

[Sintiger]

They have a lot of tragic "accidents" (how can they be accidents when Isarel are using deadly weapons around civilians - are they really accidents) yet nothing changes in their strategy? How many people have now died in tragic Israeli accidents?

I can’t bring myself to believe that they deliberately target aid workers or medical staff but I suspect that they don’t care, that every innocent person is collateral damage.

Maybe i am wrong but i hope I am not.

There are thousands of innocent people dead in this stage of the conflict, some Israelis but mostly Palestinians. It is the nature of things that acts such as this one have to happen to focus global attention. Deaths of all innocent people should have equal value, but they don’t.

 

[K3]

I can’t bring myself to believe that they deliberately target aid workers or medical staff but I suspect that they don’t care, that every innocent person is collateral damage.

Maybe i am wrong but i hope I am not.

There are thousands of innocent people dead in this stage of the conflict, some Israelis but mostly Palestinians. It is the nature of things that acts such as this one have to happen to focus global attention. Deaths of all innocent people should have equal value, but they don’t.

They were hit by direct missile fire mate. Not shrapnel. Not in a cross-fire. Direct missile hit.

But hey... Netanyahu has apologised so, you know, it's all good now.

What is Albo and Wong going to do about this? I'm guessing absolutely nothing of any substance, but, we'll see...