Non composed grunt v Composed silk

[Stylo]

Highly talented player who had ( and still has) to learn to be more than a 200cm crumbing forward. Over the last couple of seasons his pressure when he doesn't have the ball, his ability to get to more contests and his willingness to use his size to take more marks has improved. These are the things that together with his unique ability to be a threat on the ground that will make him an AFL footballer.
In the last few years he hasn't shown enough to be automatically picked over incumbents in the team. His debut games were ok, did a couple of nice things but nothing special.
I am hopeful he can become a player because he is different to the usual forward. Potentially he could give us the sort of flexibility in the front half that Grimes gives us in the back half by playing both tall and small.

Nailed it :clap

 

[Carter]

Highly talented player who had ( and still has) to learn to be more than a 200cm crumbing forward. Over the last couple of seasons his pressure when he doesn't have the ball, his ability to get to more contests and his willingness to use his size to take more marks has improved. These are the things that together with his unique ability to be a threat on the ground that will make him an AFL footballer.
In the last few years he hasn't shown enough to be automatically picked over incumbents in the team. His debut games were ok, did a couple of nice things but nothing special.
I am hopeful he can become a player because he is different to the usual forward. Potentially he could give us the sort of flexibility in the front half that Grimes gives us in the back half by playing both tall and small.

See what happens when you try? Nice work Sin ;D

 

[Sintiger]

See what happens when you try? Nice work Sin ;D

I have never had an argument with the premise that he could be a unique and very good player for us. What I haven't agreed with is that he should have been picked. I reckon we have handled him pretty well.

 

[Carter]

I have never had an argument with the premise that he could be a unique and very good player for us. What I haven't agreed with is that he should have been picked. I reckon we have handled him pretty well.

I don't know him but I get the impression he is a confident lad. The last year in particular was a massive learning curve and I think he's well in the frame for round 1.

 

[Scoop]

Brillant by Lamby, nailed it.

The silk is the next step. The system should work better with them in it.

 

[Jonesracing82]

True to an extent but my point is that if we see sides early on with Hunt, Conca ,Townsend and Moore in the side in the place of the silky players mentioned (as has happened the last few years except replace newbie grunts with Morris and Gordon) we'll know again it will be a long long winter and a barren spring.

I kind of expect that kind of line up early Rds but it's how the side changes over the season that will decide our fate. really for the newbies to be among the side early they prob need to fire in the NAB games so that they just have to be picked

 

[Jonesracing82]

Have you seen how hard it is to kick a goal in our reserves team?

It's a minor miracle he got any at all.

to add to that, the leading goal kickers in the VFL the last 2 yrs have had a total in the 40's. he's done fine at VFL level

 

[lamb22]

I kind of expect that kind of line up early Rds but it's how the side changes over the season that will decide our fate. really for the newbies to be among the side early they prob need to fire in the NAB games so that they just have to be picked

Problem is Jonesy, that if we start with the drones again in 2016, we could stuff up our top 4 chances like in 2014 and 2015.

Hardwick's gotta be bold and it starts games 1 - 3 pre season. All the silk have to get extended game time and only if they manifestly fail should they be overlooked for round 1.

 

[lamb22]

Sin, Oldie and others of like mind, I get where you are coming from on Beanie and I can understand that view point.

However I disagree on his level of readiness. Beanie was ready back end of 2013 when he kicked 11 goals in 2 games and was overlooked only to seriously wreck his ankle next game.

He was unready for a while in 2014 as he recovered from the ankle and a hand injury, but was again humming mid season until he was again made to focus too much on team defence to the detriment of his game and the team's ability to win.

Pretty much ready to go all of 2015 with the odd flat spot.

Sin is right and it should be obvious that Beanie will pick up his 1 percenters and should get better with deveopment and experience.

However his 1 percenters have improved only marginally. Gets to a few more contests. Has probably improved his tank. However in the major KPIs for a forward, contested marking and goals per game his year 1 form and year 3 form are almost identical although his year 1 figures are slightly better.

So if he is ready now he was ready in 2013.

My other concern is that if you want peak Beanie he needs first team exposure. I remember in the game that he got injured at Coburg he was being almost 5 teamed at stages and that led to bad habits, flying form 5 back, scragging, exasperation. He was playing in a mud heap with a team that couldn't move the ball quickly or accurately and they were about 10 goals down at half time with little ball in the forward line.

He still managed about three or four Beanie freakish snaps with unfortunately only one major.

I've said before Beanie's big man game might not get there till he's is 25 or more. However he offers so much more. smarts, skills. At this stage he could play a lead mark game like Gunston and he has the small game snaps of Betts and the finding space gene of Bruest.

Beanie has been developed poorly because his game is being modified to suit Richmond's game plan. Eg Dont lead like Gunston, lead to the pockets, Dont snap like Betts, play the percentage centre. Dont lurk like Bruest, man up the outlet defender.

Crazy crazy treatment of a special talent and IMO it has already cost us top four spots and finals wins.

 

[BillyJean17]

Yes he is a thinker even if it takes 6 seasons to think it.

its not a matter of just realising it, there's been plenty of players turned over the journey my friend, sadly not all deliver what we hope, so the journey goes on :

 

[Leysy Days]

Beanie has been developed poorly because his game is being modified to suit Richmond's game plan. Eg Dont lead like Gunston, lead to the pockets, Dont snap like Betts, play the percentage centre. Dont lurk like Bruest, man up the outlet defender.

This.

Anyone who thinks Bean was best served playing starvation corner in our abomination of a VFL setup the past couple of years are dreaming.

 

[Baloo]

Last time mutton and lazy backed a player in so hard was Andy Collins.

 

[Sintiger]

Last time mutton and lazy backed a player in so hard was Andy Collins.

As distinct from backing Angus Graham................☺

 

[Baloo]

As distinct from backing Angus Graham................☺

Don't forget McGun and Derickx. But then I admit I know nothing.

 

[tigertim]

to add to that, the leading goal kickers in the VFL the last 2 yrs have had a total in the 40's. he's done fine at VFL level

And oddly enough the 2 leading goal kickers In the VFL (Grimley & McBean) can't really crack it for a game in the Afl.

 

[Rosy]

You seem to be using the judgement of the RFC coaching group to prove the judgement of the RFC coaching group is right.

We have the RFC coaching group (non selection and no votes in games he's played) , the VFL coach (plenty of reports of things they want him to work on) , the VFL umpires (way lower in B&F than other top scoring players) all not rating Liam as highly as some here do at this stage. They indicate he's been a work in progress rather than an automatic best 22 player. I don't think there's any conspiracy going on. Looking forward to it all clicking into place.

 

[Sintiger]

Don't forget McGun and Derickx. But then I admit I know nothing.

Good point

 

[lamb22]

Last time mutton and lazy backed a player in so hard was Andy Collins.

Premiership coach and player now. Body (particularly shoulders) proved too frail for AFL unfortunately.

 

[lamb22]

Don't forget McGun and Derickx. But then I admit I know nothing.

We agree on more things than we thought then!

 

[Brettstigers]

Re the original Grunt vs Silk debate and moving away from the religious debate about our future saviour who has not yet risen to command his acolytes...

Is one of the key issues for Hardwick that our "grunt" is basically B Grade at best (regardless of the now legendary Dusty don't argues), and therefore we try to make up for it in the quantity of "grunty" types on the field where in reality we just need a Tuck/Jackson etc. to actually make a difference at the contest and provide space for our silky players to do their thing.

While the silky players listed all look young, inexperienced and injury prone in 2015, 2016 should give them more games this year but the underlying grunt weakness - particularly when linked to our other relative weakness in our ruck division ("2016 - The Rise of the Hamster/Griffinator" coming to a surgical theatre near you...) means the B Grade grunt division will still get more time than they deserve or us fans will want. And lets face it Townsend and Moore and a few of our other mature age pick-ups are definitely B Grade (as grunts) until they can prove otherwise on the field.

So is Hardwick wrong or been wrong - other than playing StevieM up front for way too many weeks in 2015, probably not.

Good topic - no easy answer