Non composed grunt v Composed silk

[lamb22]

This year is another very interesting year in how Hardwick (hopefully ) grasps the nettle.

Last year I posted early along the lines that our ultimate success depended on how many of Lennon, Lloyd, Mcbean and Madonna became regulars to assist our A and B graders in our top 12 - 16. As the season progressed Corey Ellis became another to add to that list. In the elimination final not one of those players was there.

I set out below two groups of players. These players are vying basically for spots 16 - 22 in the team.

First group is the NON COMPOSED GRUNT squad:

Hunt
Morris
Townsend
A Moore
Conca

The second group has arguably less gruntitude but more COMPOSED SILK

CEllis
Beanie
Lennon
Lloyd
Rioli

Hardwick has consistently favoured the first group in his first 6 years. He had had workers who provide consistent levels of output but basically when it counts their skill level hurts us.

Hardwick however has traditionally been suspicious of players who make it look easy.

Can he embrace a bit of flair and X factor (and composure) to take the next step.

I believe that if we are to be fair dinkum only two of group A should ever be in the side at the same time and at least three of group B should play.

The five in each group is a little arbitrary on my part. Players like Batch might be on the fringes of group A and players like Menadue, Short and some newbies might be on the fringes of Group B.

Then there are players like Griff with their own group of non composed non gruntitude.

Signs are that Hardwick is finally getting it (due to serial finals failure) or he is having his arm gently twisted by others in the footy department.

Never seen a coach who is so scared of success that he sabotages himself time after time.

Like Bullwinkle always says when trying to pluck a rabbit out of the hat

" This time for sure!, Rocky"

 

[BillyJean17]

Went via the cape to make your point, I see where your coming from just,,,,early on dimma did give the hislops, Petterd, King lots of ops , and At same time , I feel he neglected to intro sufficient silk into the line up to counter the manuf grunt that had minimal output.
He s reloaded and with these types he hopes to provide some cover for cotch and lids . Is method in his madness , townso looks to have the tools that he could put some work into the likes of a Jacobs tag for example

He s a thinker Dimma

 

[blx]

We definitely need more polish but I wouldn't go so far as giving numbers from each group because it's a juggling act with so many variables per game to consider.

Not to put too much pressure on the kid but the simple addition of Corey Ellis on game day makes a huge improvement in class.

The only given is not all our kids are going to make it but compared to pervious decades we have such a broad section of talented kids it's going to be fun to see who comes on our not.

 

[yandb]

Went via the cape to make your point, I see where your coming from just,,,,early on dimma did give the hislops, Petterd, King lots of ops , and At same time , I feel he neglected to intro sufficient silk into the line up to counter the manuf grunt that had minimal output.
He s reloaded and with these types he hopes to provide some cover for cotch and lids . Is method in his madness , townso looks to have the tools that he could put some work into the likes of a Jacobs tag for example

He s a thinker Dimma

Yes he is a thinker even if it takes 6 seasons to think it.

 

[tigersnake]

so if the non-composed grunt weighs the same as a duck, its composed of silk?

 

[lamb22]

We definitely need more polish but I wouldn't go so far as giving numbers from each group because it's a juggling act with so many variables per game to consider.

True to an extent but my point is that if we see sides early on with Hunt, Conca ,Townsend and Moore in the side in the place of the silky players mentioned (as has happened the last few years except replace newbie grunts with Morris and Gordon) we'll know again it will be a long long winter and a barren spring.

 

[AngryAnt]

Yes some good posting here Lamby, but I'd argue that you will always need a component of steel (grunt if you like) as well as silk.

All silk and no grunt means you get bullied, can't win ball, lose game. So you'll always see some grunters in place of some silkers even in your premiership teams.

It's the balance, of course.

 

[Rancey18]

In addition to that Ant, the silk usually need time to develop their bodies to be able to handle the intensity at AFL level. Hence the need to play others ahead of them.

 

[yandb]

Isn't it a coincidence that when Hardwick took over the silk didn't need time to develop their bodies now 6 seasons later we need to protect the silk so we leave them in the two's.

Nice piece of spin but it doesn't cut it.

Some players like Menadue do need time but if Jake Neade can play AFL at 167 cm and 69 kg then why do we need to cottonwool our silk.

 

[Rancey18]

Isn't it a coincidence that when Hardwick took over the silk didn't need time to develop their bodies now 6 seasons later we need to protect the silk so we leave them in the two's.

Nice piece of spin but it doesn't cut it.

Some players like Menadue do need time but if Jake Neade can play AFL at 167 cm and 69 kg then why do we need to cottonwool our silk.

I'm not saying that none of them shouldnt play, but that there should be a mix of the two.

 

[AngryAnt]

Isn't it a coincidence that when Hardwick took over the silk didn't need time to develop their bodies now 6 seasons later we need to protect the silk so we leave them in the two's.

Nice piece of spin but it doesn't cut it.

Some players like Menadue do need time but if Jake Neade can play AFL at 167 cm and 69 kg then why do we need to cottonwool our silk.

Here's Lamby's silk list.

CEllis
Beanie
Lennon
Lloyd
Rioli

All got games - exceptin' Rioli of course - but he will too. CEllis broke down. This will happen with young, silky, less well-developed players sometimes. Beanie - key position/ruck - he'll get his chance also. Lennon got plenty of games. Lloyd is mature, not sure he is totally silky but whatever - plenty of games.

A nice piece of spin Y&B but just doesn't cut it.

 

[lamb22]

Here's Lamby's silk list.

All got games - exceptin' Rioli of course - but he will too. CEllis broke down. This will happen with young, silky, less well-developed players sometimes. Beanie - key position/ruck - he'll get his chance also. Lennon got plenty of games. Lloyd is mature, not sure he is totally silky but whatever - plenty of games.

A nice piece of spin Y&B but just doesn't cut it.

Apart from Corey, giving games to the others was like pulling teeth for Hardwick.

When the momnet of truth came Hardwick got the vapors and not one of the above played in the final with predictable result.

 

[yandb]

Antman I agree with your assessment of Lloyd but Lennon only received games when we had major injuries. If Pettard hadn't copped that major injury Hardwick would have picked him over the silk every week.

 

[lamb22]

There is a real furphy about hardwick playing class kids. Drummond played 1 quarter and a bit. Madonna 1 game. Elton 1 game. Beanie 6 quarters. Menadue not much more. Corey maybe 16 quarters all up. Lennon and lloyd basically shared 1 position. Compare this to the game time Morris Gordon Newman and Hunt got and the true picture is clear.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

There is a real furphy about hardwick playing class kids. Drummond played 1 quarter and a bit. Madonna 1 game. Elton 1 game. Beanie 6 quarters. Menadue not much more. Corey maybe 16 quarters all up. Lennon and lloyd basically shared 1 position. Compare this to the game time Morris Gordon Newman and Hunt got and the true picture is clear.

Hang on. Drummond? The kid debuted in Rd 4 and did his knee. He shouldn't be in this list.

 

[Sintiger]

There is a real furphy about hardwick playing class kids. Drummond played 1 quarter and a bit. Madonna 1 game. Elton 1 game. Beanie 6 quarters. Menadue not much more. Corey maybe 16 quarters all up. Lennon and lloyd basically shared 1 position. Compare this to the game time Morris Gordon Newman and Hunt got and the true picture is clear.

This argument is so full of holes.

McDonough has been left on the shelf, so much for class. He just didn't perform.
menadue was a skinny kid last year who was basically cooked in the 2nd half of the season which was evidenced by his poor vfl form.
McBean came in and did just ok. He was an injury replacement for Vickery who had a very good 2nd half of the season. He kicked 40 odd goals in the vfl, not 80.
Elton's form in the vfl was just ok at best and he was playing back when our backline was just about the best in the league after round 6-7.
Morris hardly played after he was dropped, maybe 1-2 games.
Ellis and Drummond lost their spots to long term injuries.
Lloyd's form mirrored his selection, up and down. Fringe player.
Lennon's first half of the season in the vfl was just ok. He was told to work harder by a senior player and then got his chance.

It was a mistake to leave him and Lloyd out in the EF.

Hunt played consistently all season. His position is under threat for sure, initially from Yarran.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

This argument is so full of holes.

McDonough has been left on the shelf, so much for class. He just didn't perform.
menadue was a skinny kid last year who was basically cooked in the 2nd half of the season which was evidenced by his poor vfl form.
McBean came in and did just ok. He was an injury replacement for Vickery who had a very good 2nd half of the season. He kicked 40 odd goals in the vfl, not 80.
Elton's form in the vfl was just ok at best and he was playing back when our backline was just about the best in the league after round 6-7.
Morris hardly played after he was dropped, maybe 1-2 games.
Ellis and Drummond lost their spots to long term injuries.
Lloyd's form mirrored his selection, up and down. Fringe player.
Lennon's first half of the season in the vfl was just ok. He was told to work harder by a senior player and then got his chance.

It was a mistake to leave him and Lloyd out in the EF.

Hunt played consistently all season. His position is under threat for sure, initially from Yarran.

Excellent post, Sin. It makes far too much sense for this thread

 

[tigersnake]

There is a real furphy about hardwick playing class kids. Drummond played 1 quarter and a bit. Madonna 1 game. Elton 1 game. Beanie 6 quarters. Menadue not much more. Corey maybe 16 quarters all up. Lennon and lloyd basically shared 1 position. Compare this to the game time Morris Gordon Newman and Hunt got and the true picture is clear.

Based purely on this post, its not a furphy at all. Drummond debut early and knee. so wrong. Madonna not up to it, failed to fire in any chances he got. Tagging him as composed silk is wrong anyway, so wrong on 2 counts. Elton, fair enough, but he hardly bashed the door down, could have played a couple more, Beanie, only one I agree on, (but talk to fans and 99% of them will find something to disagree with the coach on), Menadue got games, showed a bit, inconsistent, dropped, aquitted himself well in his first year for a second rounder, he's actually evidence against your argument, so wrong. C Ellis, probably would have played every game after debuting if not for injury, so wrong again.

On the grunters, Morris, generally agree but he was dropped, the claim he is cemented in the side wasn't true last season. Gordon, how many games did he get? Newman, agree, but he also wasn't rushed back in to the side, Hunt aquitted himself well in his assigned role as a fringe player, did enough to keep his spot, only my opinon.

For me personally, there is something to the argument that Dimma is overly conservative, Conca and Griff in the EM are ample evidence of that. But you overstate the case and apply evidence wrongly and out of context. Newman and Morris got too many games, Beanie IMO should have got a few more. That's it.

 

[lamb22]

My response was specifically to antman who raised the issue of our silky kids getting games and more generally to the posters so keep trotting out the ABSOLUTE FURPHY that our classy kids got a lot of game time. Fact is that in total 6 of our kids got less game time in total than Morris. Namely Drummond Beanie Madonna Elton Menadue Ellis. I'd suggest that if any of Beanie Lennon or lloyd had played instead of Morris in Rd 1 to 6 we'd have beaten at least 1 of melbourne geelong or dogs.

 

[tigersnake]

My response was specifically to antman who raised the issue of our silky kids getting games and more generally to the posters so keep trotting out the ABSOLUTE FURPHY that our classy kids got a lot of game time. Fact is that in total 6 of our kids got less game time in total than Morris. Namely Drummond Beanie Madonna Elton Menadue Ellis. I'd suggest that if any of Beanie Lennon or lloyd had played instead of Morris in Rd 1 to 6 we'd have beaten at least 1 of melbourne geelong or dogs.

Based on your evidence and argument, its no furphy. And its no fact. Drummond knee, Beanie, I'll give you that, Madonna, not classy, Elton, ditto, Menadue got more games than he might have been due, Ellis, foot/ groin.

comparing them to the games Morris got is your classic A Bolt-style out of context half truth, a meaningless assertion.

And on those losses, (I'll take out the Dogs one because I believe we were beaten by a better side on the day), the woeful losses to Melb and Geel were across-the-board listless, rudderless, lead in the boots crap efforts. You reckon a couple of non-superstar youngsters and a bush journeyman would have changed that? Fair dinkum?