Hammer just needs to hit it where our players will be, he is good at hitting players, just not ours :hihi
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Nankervis !!
- Thread starter Tigaman
- Start date
Bill James said:
Same again.
Or our mids are often being beaten by better opposition. Hampson is a different type of ruck to Maric. He leaps higher, which is why he obtains so many more HOs, but hits it wider, not just down at his feet. Whereas with Maric, often this would have led to another ball-up which would suit Ivan because he can grapple and the opposing rucks leap is negated. Maybe this increases our mids chances of getting it out. But a wider HO can also release a player into space to generate a quicker F50 entry when it works.
Bill James said:
Just facile.
Interesting just how great the HO discrepancy is, nearly 8 per game. But you've conveniently left out the crucial third factor. So, in all those games, who were they hitting it to. The midfield group never changed over these two years, the 'rovers' as you quaintly call them? They hardly play a role?
Let's just compare some total season clearances figures with say, the two successful GF teams:
CLRS - Swans = 1004, Dogs = 977, Tiges = 749.
Now HOs - Swans = 1084, Dogs = 872, Tiges = 931
Now leading ruck, HO player. Tippett = 419, Roughead = 382, Hampson = 652.
So we were thrashed for CLRs despite having by far the most successful HO ruckman? For example, despite Hammer winning 270 more HOs over the season than the Premier's top ruckman, we achieved 228 less CLRs.
Make what you will, Bill. Must be a simple reason - all Hammer's ineptitude. That's it.
lamb22 said:
So, Lamby, stop spouting your religious fervour again and just clarify once and for all. Are you calling for Eevan's return to the team as first ruck for the 2017 season? This will solve all these issues? Your fans are no doubt awaiting your prophetic words.
Or has he transmogrified into Nankervis so that they are now one and the same identity, just 8 years younger?
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Bill James
Guest
An Ivan hit out is worth more than Hammer hitout. What was the response of Hardwick? Drop Miles, the clearance revelation of the AFL in 2014 when Hardwick eventually selected him. But in 2016 when our clearances drop its miles fault for not being able to rove to Hammas longer taps. Turns out everyone has the same problem. Simple fact, Ivan was more likely to put it down their throat while running a good line than Hamma.leon said:
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Bill James
Guest
leon said:
Great deduction Sherlock. The same midfielders top our clearances both years. There was one change in the top 7 clearance winners, can you spot the difference?
| PLAYER | 2015 | PLAYER | 2016 | |
| Miles | 135 | Cotchin | 122 | |
| Cotchin | 110 | Martin | 114 | |
| Grigg | 90 | Miles | 92 | |
| Maric | 75 | Grigg | 81 | |
| Martin | 73 | Edwards | 76 | |
| Edwards | 53 | Ellis | 38 | |
| Ellis | 49 | Hampson | 28 |
Damning evidence. There is no doubt in my mind that a bullocking ruckman is what is most effective. Maric did it with great success for us during his prime, Mumford plays the same role at GWS. Hopefully Nankervis fits this mould - he sure looks like he plays similar.Bill James said:
For all of Hampson's hitouts (overrated stat), he does not suit our team and is therefore not the way forward for us.
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easy_tiger
Guest
Rancey18 said:
Please, footy gods.
Im more into Mummy than an egyptian blowfly.
I'd say hes my favourite ruckman since Mark Lee.
Rancey18 said:
Yes, someone like Gawn gets a lot of hitouts but generates a lot of clearances by himself through grunt work and his around the ground work is what makes him even more valueable. Even Sandilands there was always great debate that his mammoth hitouts never never lead to great clearances numbers for Freo. Was most valuable when he could push forward and take a mark. Hampson is no Sandi.
As far as I'm concerned Hampson is useless in the modern game, especially if his hitouts don't lead to clearance wins which is a fact as pointed out. Nankervis should starting round 1, Hampson only in if he gets fatigued.
Bill James said:
Not so elementary, Watson. So you're mounting a great case for the Maric of 2015 when the whole team had a much better year? I'm a great fan of Eevan.
But, so what does this prove? Tell us why Maric did not do this in 2016? Dimma was too dumb to play him? Will he return to this form and regain the No.1 ruck spot in 2017? So this is what we can look forward to in '17, Bill?
If you look more closely, you might notice that Martin(+41) greatly improved his CLRs numbers over 2016, Cotch(+12) and even Edwards(+23) marginally, whereas Miles fell away(-43) counter-balancing Dusty. So, by your analysis, Dusty greatly improved with Hammer and Shed/Cotch also to an extent; Miles the opposite. Who would you rather have the ball in their hands, Bill? Ellis and Grigg fell away somewhat too. Interesting.
I'm curious how these statisticians classify a clearance. Ivvy has been great, but I'm not sure how much you'd want the ball in his hands anyway. Not too dangerous probably, Hammer even more so.
The doggies beat us strongly on CLRs not by having any stars with higher numbers; the Bont their best at 109, but by their depth of mids who rotate through. With the Swans, they have Kennedy 191, Hanna 121, Parker 158, Mitchell and Jack around 90. Now that's what you call clearance players, except I wouldn't call Kennedy a 'rover'. More than double Miles' output on his own! To an inferior ruck to ours (although games missed a factor).
I hope Nank can really step up, but you are strangely silent on data for him. I just doubt he's going to take over No. 1 ruck immediately; I see it as a progression. So what are you actually supposed to be proving, Bill? Anything about the present, or just 2015?
Clearances are about a whole midfield's performance; the ruck a vital part only. You haven't proven anything much IMHO, so maybe save the early crowing.
Note: even the wooden-spooner beat RFC by near 50 CLRs (797/749). But it's just the ruckman to blame.
Leon did you note the differential in individual clearance stats for Hammer and Maric.
You keep on banging on about our clearance players needing to get better (only when Hammer rucks) but conveniently forget that Hampson is one of those clearance players.
On your earlier questions Ivan is finished, cant run, bend over, jump and struggled to lift his arms above his head. I would have played him before Hammer.
My preference was though as I've said before in the absence of a viable ruck rotate Vickery, Griff and Beanie forward and ruck.
With Ty and Beanie gone the equation is simple. Toby rucks and Griff provides support.
If Toby gets injured I'd bring Maric in. We need to fast track Chol and Soldo (don't hold much hope for him) as possible support for Toby long term. Plesae watch the first half of the Swans/ Crows semi again and look at the number of contests Toby positively impacts as opposed to Hampson's traffic cone impersonations for us.
Massive upgrade already.
You keep on banging on about our clearance players needing to get better (only when Hammer rucks) but conveniently forget that Hampson is one of those clearance players.
On your earlier questions Ivan is finished, cant run, bend over, jump and struggled to lift his arms above his head. I would have played him before Hammer.
My preference was though as I've said before in the absence of a viable ruck rotate Vickery, Griff and Beanie forward and ruck.
With Ty and Beanie gone the equation is simple. Toby rucks and Griff provides support.
If Toby gets injured I'd bring Maric in. We need to fast track Chol and Soldo (don't hold much hope for him) as possible support for Toby long term. Plesae watch the first half of the Swans/ Crows semi again and look at the number of contests Toby positively impacts as opposed to Hampson's traffic cone impersonations for us.
Massive upgrade already.
