Mark Harvey Sacked- Official

[lukeanddad]

So why should St. Kilda have given him what he wanted when he didn't deserve it?

Most observers are saying Lyon is one of the best 2-3 coaches going around. If the Saints wanted a change, fair enough, but to fluff around for five months looks incompetent.

 

[Phar Ace]

If StKilda has the money problems being whispered about, perhaps they simply couldn't re-sign him at the given time. More will become known in time.

Frankly I don't think any coach who has been in the system for as long as Lyon has in the modern AFL needs to worry about an event being 'life changing'. I don't think money was Lyon's predominant driver, I am sure it was a factor though. I tend to think that Lyon's chances of success at the Saints would be alot less than at Freo. Saints have thrown all their eggs in the one basket over the last few years to get that premiership. Fremantle have done alot more building of younger players and looks to have a stronger list fo future years to me.


I reckon Lyon had to put up with enough off-field dramas during his reign at the Saints. Why does he owe anyone anything at the Saints? Their administration and recruiting has been a rabble. He probably couldn't get out of there quick enough.

Think your summary is pretty good on the Lyon side of things. The only query is whether Pelchen had a role at all in Lyon's decision..... We may have to wait for the book

 

[GoodOne]

So why should St. Kilda have given him what he wanted when he didn't deserve it?

Don't know. Why did they, in the end, panic and offer him what he wanted?

 

[brigadiertiger]

Don't know. Why did they, in the end, panic and offer him what he wanted?

When they offered it he deserved it. When Lyon wanted it he didn't.

I think many people are forgetting the start to the season that St. Kilda actually had.

At the end of April St. Kilda were 15th they had beaten Brisbane and had a draw against us. IN case people have forgotten they played in a GF last year and then sunk to 14th. They won their next game late May when they were 15th. He still had a year to go no other club would have offered an extension under those circumstances.

If Craig Kelly is to be believed it was Lyon and his management that put talks on hold later in the season as it looked like St. Kilda would make the finals to allow Lyon to concentrate on that.

I wonder how many here would be happy for Hardwick to get an extension to his contract right now. Not many I would hazard a guess at.

 

[GoodOne]

When they offered it he deserved it. When Lyon wanted it he didn't.

I think many people are forgetting the start to the season that St. Kilda actually had.

At the end of April St. Kilda were 15th they had beaten Brisbane and had a draw against us. IN case people have forgotten they played in a GF last year and then sunk to 14th. They won their next game late May when they were 15th. He still had a year to go no other club would have offered an extension under those circumstances.

If Craig Kelly is to be believed it was Lyon and his management that put talks on hold later in the season as it looked like St. Kilda would make the finals to allow Lyon to concentrate on that.

I wonder how many here would be happy for Hardwick to get an extension to his contract right now. Not many I would hazard a guess at.

Last time I checked May was 4 months ago. Just keep defending that Saints management. In the meantime the assistant coach and high performance manager have also quit. Saints management is a debacle. Their issues lie squarely with their mismanagement.

 

[TigerForce]

Last time I checked May was 4 months ago. Just keep defending that Saints management. In the meantime the assistant coach and high performance manager have also quit. Saints management is a deacle. Their issues lie squarely with their mismanagement.

...and Smiling Assassin Brad Johnson is on the committee to decide the next Saints coach??

 

[brigadiertiger]

Last time I checked May was 4 months ago. Just keep defending that Saints management. In the meantime the assistant coach and high performance manager have also quit. Saints management is a deacle. Their issues lie squarely with their mismanagement.

: Yeah at the end of May they were a dead set finals chance. :

Would you be happy if we signed Hardwick to an extra two years on an unconditional contract tomorrow?

 

[GoodOne]

: Yeah at the end of May they were a dead set finals chance. :

Would you be happy if we signed Hardwick to an extra two years on an unconditional contract tomorrow?

What's Hardwick got to do with the Saints situation? Hardwick's been coaching for just 2 years, he doesn't have an out clause, he was never going to be head-hunted, and if he did go and was in that situation I wouldn't expect management to start complaining about him leaving because of their inaction.

 

[Tigerbob]

: Yeah at the end of May they were a dead set finals chance. :

Would you be happy if we signed Hardwick to an extra two years on an unconditional contract tomorrow?

Just to clarify, Ross Lyon had got his side into two Grand Finals and almost won both of them. He has the greatest winning percentage of any current coach in the land. Despite what I think Hardwick could become, he hasn't got the runs on the board to demand a contract extension, like Ross did back in May.

The more this goes on, the more Ross looks like a reasonable guy, and the more the Saints management look like blubbering fools. In my opinion, there is no doubt they have screwed up here. Big time. Ross Lyon had an average team at the midway point or even a little after sitting in 15th place and turned them into a Finals side. In my opinion he is a remarkable coach and whilst queries over his style of play and fit with the Dockers may come into play, his philosophies, and core beliefs will always stand him in good stead. Fremantle will be one mentally strong team and damn hard to play against.

I think St.Kilda are in for a whole world of pain for the years to come. Financially in difficulty, playing list aging, no young kids coming through, and a coaching committee really that is simply laughable. They are gone. Stick that fork in them.

Also forgot to add, mark the moment when Fremantle landed Ross Lyon as coach as the moment Fremantle grew up and became an AFL club, not a Franchise learning to compete. Gutsy, ballsy, tough, hard and ruthless decision, but in the end, the right decision and shows that Fremantle mean business to be a top AFL side, not simply make up the numbers. Massive respect.

 

[brigadiertiger]

What's Hardwick got to do with the Saints situation? Hardwick's been coaching for just 2 years, he doesn't have an out clause, he was never going to be head-hunted, and if he did go and was in that situation I wouldn't expect management to start complaining about him leaving because of their inaction.

How do you know Hardwick doesn't have an out clause?

Fact is Lyon asked when he didn't deserve it then when he did he had called off discussions and when able St. Kilda made an offer.

With his club struggling after playing in a GF do you honestly think in April that Lyon deserved an uncoditional extension to his contract?

 

[brigadiertiger]

Just to clarify, Ross Lyon had got his side into two Grand Finals and almost won both of them. He has the greatest winning percentage of any current coach in the land. Despite what I think Hardwick could become, he hasn't got the runs on the board to demand a contract extension, like Ross did back in May.

The more this goes on, the more Ross looks like a reasonable guy, and the more the Saints management look like blubbering fools. In my opinion, there is no doubt they have screwed up here. Big time. Ross Lyon had an average team at the midway point or even a little after sitting in 15th place and turned them into a Finals side. In my opinion he is a remarkable coach and whilst queries over his style of play and fit with the Dockers may come into play, his philosophies, and core beliefs will always stand him in good stead. Fremantle will be one mentally strong team and damn hard to play against.

I think St.Kilda are in for a whole world of pain for the years to come. Financially in difficulty, playing list aging, no young kids coming through, and a coaching committee really that is simply laughable. They are gone. Stick that fork in them.

Also forgot to add, mark the moment when Fremantle landed Ross Lyon as coach as the moment Fremantle grew up and became an AFL club, not a Franchise learning to compete. Gutsy, ballsy, tough, hard and ruthless decision, but in the end, the right decision and shows that Fremantle mean business to be a top AFL side, not simply make up the numbers. Massive respect.

And at that time he deserved his contract extension I have said as much but by late in the season he was the one who called off contract discussions. There was only a small window of opportunity for St. Kilda to decide to give him the contract.

I respected Lyon as a coach but Fremantle went to Lyon about taking over at the end of 2012 he decided to go there and then and fairly shafted Harvey with Freo.

 

[Tigerbob]

And at that time he deserved his contract extension I have said as much but by late in the season he was the one who called off contract discussions. There was only a small window of opportunity for St. Kilda to decide to give him the contract.

I respected Lyon as a coach but Fremantle went to Lyon about taking over at the end of 2012 he decided to go there and then and fairly shafted Harvey with Freo.

I get what your saying, but you have to ask yourself, firstly who put the clause in the contract that allowed the out?

I can tell you it wasn't Ross Lyon. So you come into a season, after being to the big dance, and your coach, widely respected as one of if not the best coach in the land has this get out clause that you put in.

You either have full faith in him, or you ummm and ahhh and wait to see how it goes. Trust get's lost and the relationship becomes strained.

Fact is Saints dithered and didn't trust Ross, he saw that, when a club came in with what he wanted in 3 days and showed him the Trust you need, it was an easy choice.

Whilst I feel for Mark Harvey, Fremantle have put a line in the sand and are saying they want to be the best and won't let anything get in their way. If I was a Fremantle supporter I would be sleeping very easy right now.

 

[bullus_hit]

I think St.Kilda are in for a whole world of pain for the years to come. Financially in difficulty, playing list aging, no young kids coming through, and a coaching committee really that is simply laughable. They are gone. Stick that fork in them.

And surely Lyon has to take some responsibility for that, I've never been overly critical with regards to his match day performances but would have to question his ability to prepare for generational change. We often marvel at Geelong and Colingwood producing a host of highly talented youngsters despite their draft position yet what have St Kilda produced in the past 5 years? McEvoy is the only player who is verging on elite status. I won't even trawl through the list of recycled duds but it rivals only Richmond pre 2006 for complete incompetence.

 

[Tigerbob]

And surely Lyon has to take some responsibility for that, I've never been overly critical with regards to his match day performances but would have to question his ability to prepare for generational change. We often marvel at Geelong and Colingwood producing a host of highly talented youngsters despite their draft position yet what have St Kilda produced in the past 5 years? McEvoy is the only player who is verging on elite status. I won't even trawl through the list of recycled duds but it rivals only Richmond pre 2006 for complete incompetence.

Head coach the buck stops with him, but whilst Geelong are able to grab good kids late, it's quite obvious this hasn't been the case at St.Kilda.

Probably why they head hunted Pelchin before deciding on a coach. The recruiting (i.e drafting of kids) at St.Kilda is a joke. Industry known.

Ross has shown he can develop any type of player, he obviously isn't about building a list from scratch, he is from the Sydney culture of trading the pieces so who knows if it is right or wrong? Will the new coach come in and re build the side and will they ever be as close as they were under Lyon? We will see.

I think the industry has become too kids focused. Whilst sometimes a rebuild is a necessity (like our case to form a new culture) I don't think it needs to happen all the time. I wouldn't doubt Ross Lyon wouldn't have traded heavily for AFL listed players and got the Saints back into the Grand Final. Looking on from the outside, I think the philosophies of Pelchin and Lyon clashed. Pelchin wants to rebuild, Lyon wants to refresh. I am not guessing, and we will never know who would have been right.

 

[bullus_hit]

Head coach the buck stops with him, but whilst Geelong are able to grab good kids late, it's quite obvious this hasn't been the case at St.Kilda.

Probably why they head hunted Pelchin before deciding on a coach. The recruiting (i.e drafting of kids) at St.Kilda is a joke. Industry known.

Ross has shown he can develop any type of player, he obviously isn't about building a list from scratch, he is from the Sydney culture of trading the pieces so who knows if it is right or wrong? Will the new coach come in and re build the side and will they ever be as close as they were under Lyon? We will see.

I think the industry has become too kids focused. Whilst sometimes a rebuild is a necessity (like our case to form a new culture) I don't think it needs to happen all the time. I wouldn't doubt Ross Lyon wouldn't have traded heavily for AFL listed players and got the Saints back into the Grand Final. Looking on from the outside, I think the philosophies of Pelchin and Lyon clashed. Pelchin wants to rebuild, Lyon wants to refresh. I am not guessing, and we will never know who would have been right.

That's in a nutshell Bob, I will add however that Sydney have adopted a similar strategy yet have still managed to bring in some excellent juniors along the way. My prognosis on all this is St Kilda desperately need to move on some of their aging stars before it's too late, no-one is untouchable in my eyes and you'd probably be looking at a minimum of 3 bonafide A graders. Difficult decisions lie ahead and I don't envy the coach in waiting.

 

[Kaelan]

there will be an interview in the west tomorrow where lyon reveals his financial losses during the gfc according to the teaser had to move back in with his parents indicating he lost his house the numbers they are talking about is a 1000000 plus

 

[Tigerbob]

That's in a nutshell Bob, I will add however that Sydney have adopted a similar strategy yet have still managed to bring in some excellent juniors along the way. My prognosis on all this is St Kilda desperately need to move on some of their aging stars before it's too late, no-one is untouchable in my eyes and you'd probably be looking at a minimum of 3 bonafide A graders. Difficult decisions lie ahead and I don't envy the coach in waiting.

Sydney got smart and poached a guy who I regard as one of the best recruiters in the business in Kinnear Beatson.

Not a household name, but he knows his stuff.

I think now St.Kilda need to rebuild. I do agree, if I was in charge, I would be ruthless and trade some of their big names for early draft picks and good younger players.

I would also hire Scott Waters. I think he is the best of the guys left. Coached his own team in his own right to Premierships, now regarded as a great developer of talent at Collingwood, so much so that a few clubs are after him in regards to a Development coach position.

Hire Scott Waters, trade some of the ageing A graders, delist heavily and recruit some kids. In this case now it is needed, as two of the big drivers of the culture down there in Lyon and Mission have departed.

 

[Tigerbob]

there will be an interview in the west tomorrow where lyon reveals his financial losses during the gfc according to the teaser had to move back in with his parents indicating he lost his house the numbers they are talking about is a 1000000 plus

Well he certainly he has made that back. Good on him. He made the right decision, both professionally and for the sake of whats most important to him, his family.

 

[jb03]

Well he certainly he has made that back. Good on him. He made the right decision, both professionally and for the sake of whats most important to him, his family.

Good caoch, poor investor.

 

[brigadiertiger]

After 2009 GF it was claimed the one thing that St. Kilda lacked was pace they tried to rectify that in the trade period by trading for Lovett and Peake and we all know how that turned out. That along with Ball which was a huge mistake by all if all three had of been there they may well have had their second flag. They threw the dice with trading away their early picks and in the end they lost.

I would expect that if we were in a similar position that we take the same chance just that we take someone with a little less baggage than Lovett.