Life, The Universe and Everything Else

[Tiger74]

Re: Life, the Universe, and Everything

I have one question for Stripes actually. In your world were our conscious engeries are all interconnected and part of a greater oneness, is there such a thing as "good" and "evil"?

Nice break away thread T74! Would be an impossible task to carve up our cosmic discussions from the Christianity thread.

Firstly, I think the concept of "good" and "evil" is a human concept designed to strike fear into the hearts of many (aka certain religions have successfully done this). There are certainly darker energies that exist but I don't believe there are truly evil energies. Evil is an invention of the human ego mind IMO.

Darker energy gathers in lower emotional states such as hate, jealousy, anger, rage, etc just as lighter energy exists in higher emotional states like love, joy and happiness. The state I referred to on the Christianity thread (ie, pure consciousness and the oneness of being) is of such a high vibrational frequency and enlightened nature that I doubt darker energies could exist within it.

I agree how we define "good" and "evil" is a social and cultural definition. I do wonder about it though...

If we believe we are all belong to some great earth spirit (not referring to your beliefs here btw), I think how nature works would be an indicator for this. In general, the "natural" world has no evil. Most animals and plants kill or maim for either food or security. We on the otherhand do these things for reasons for greed, pride, power, etc..

 

[Tiger74]

Re: Christianity

I like to think of it (maybe simplistic but works for me) like a car and driver. The car is useless without the driver but destroying all the cars won't destroy the drivers (Unless you're in it at the time but that's a physical limitation that the soul isn't subjected to.), the drivers will find something else to do.

The only point of possible disagreement (I don't know for sure) is whether consciousness can be destroyed or not. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can be converted into other types of matter. If it can, I'll corss that bridge when I come to it.

actually you could argue against that. If the world no longer needs stagecoachs, wheelwrights vanish as well. Did the drivers need create the car, or the need for a car to be driven create the driver?

 

[1eyedtiger]

Re: Christianity

Like I said, it's simplistic. It's only a metaphor.
The physical human body is a mechanism via which which your soul acts upon a given environment.

But the soul must exist in a physical sense. Whether the human race can detect it or not is a scientific concern.

 

[Curtiger]

Re: Christianity

1eyedtiger,good to see some new blood.welcome.

Can I ask why you think consciousness needs to be considered within the realm of the physical?

And what is a soul?

Agreed, welcome 1eyed.
Thought your ideas were reminiscent of Descartes' take on Christianity in some respects and his 'helmsman in the ship'.

One notion about consciousness that I occasionally like to indulge in is the Scientological idea that 'thetans' exist on another plane to those that are tangible and visible. That's about as far as it goes, though. You have to be careful when you invoke Scientological concepts. :hihi

 

[Djevv]

Re: Christianity

Sounds awefully like faith, Stripes.

What do you think faith is anyway?

For me it is placing trust in something that you are sure of. A bit like stepping onto an aircraft.

 

[evo]

Re: Christianity

1eyedtiger,good to see some new blood.welcome.

Can I ask why you think consciousness needs to be considered within the realm of the physical?

And what is a soul?

Agreed, welcome 1eyed.
Thought your ideas were reminiscent of Descartes' take on Christianity in some respects and his 'helmsman in the ship'.

One notion about consciousness that I occasionally like to indulge in is the Scientological idea that 'thetans' exist on another plane to those that are tangible and visible. That's about as far as it goes, though. You have to be careful when you invoke Scientological concepts. :hihi

Brother Bear i come bearing good news.Xenu hasbeen in contact and informs me a ship will be along shortly to collect you.Please be ready with luggage weighed and boarding pass at the ready.

 

[evo]

Re: Christianity

On a more sane note curtis E.,,I've been battling with this Cartesian Dualism problem myself.

This is the best solution to the problem I've come across so far.

http://www.phil.gu.se/posters/prop.html
http://naturyl.humanists.net/diamon.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_monism

 

[Djevv]

Re: Christianity

Interesting that most ideas about conciousness seem to revolve around the supernatural.

The Bible is pretty vague on the topic. My undertanding of it is that we are a tripartite being:

A body - seat of the five senses
A soul/heart - thoughts, personality, conciousness
A spirit - the purely supernatural component. Gives us our 'religious' nature as people. God or spiritual conciousness.

 

[evo]

Re: Christianity

Interestingly djevv those potential 'solutions' to the problems of consciousness are adressed in Buddhism(t74 might be familar with it)

I think it may be potentially a place where a religion got it 'right'

dialetical monism is very similar to the Buddhist idea of sunyata

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunyata

the philosophy that emerges from the discoveries in quantum mechanics seem to confirm.

 

[Djevv]

Re: Christianity

Interestingly djevv those potential 'solutions' to the problems of consciousness are adressed in Buddhism(t74 might be familar with it)

I think it may be potentially a place where a religion got it 'right'

dialetical monism is very similar to the Buddhist idea of sunyata

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunyata

the philosophy that emerges from the discoveries in quantum mechanics seem to confirm.

Both Christianity and Buddhism offer supernatural explanations for conciousness.

As I understand it Buddhism says we are on a 'wheel' of life where our soul transmigrates after death and is reborn in a new body. We are concious due to the presence - presumably - of this soul, although it bears no memories of the previous life. The circumstances of life (karma) depend on how life was lived in the previous life. Karma and rebirth is considered a curse in this religion so Buddha found a way out. The way off the wheel is the 8-fold path to enlightenment which eventually - after death - leads to the soul becoming one with the divine Brahmin (buddhist God?).

Christianity says that God breathed into us His nature. So like God we are fully concious both of ourselves in the natural world and of the supernatural world which upholds it. After death we rejoin God in His realm if we have been true to Him in life. Otherwise we are unable to be in his presence and are thus permanently separated from Him.

As for dialectical monism, I had never heard of it until a page or two back. Does it offer a supernatural explanation of conciousness in a philosophical context?

 

[evo]

Re: Christianity

As I understand it Buddhism says we are on a 'wheel' of life where our soul transmigrates after death and is reborn in a new body

.Many( but not all Buddhists) say this,yes.I think they have that wrong.

We are concious due to the presence - presumably - of this soul, although it bears no memories of the previous life

.I've read the Dalai Lama say things that alude to that he can remember things from a former life-I think he is either bullsh!tting us,or himself.Probably the later.

The circumstances of life (karma) depend on how life was lived in the previous life. Karma and rebirth is considered a curse in this religion so Buddha found a way out. The way off the wheel is the 8-fold path to enlightenment which eventually - after death - leads to the soul becoming one with the divine Brahmin (buddhist God?).

Yes,thats a fair summation of what generally Buddhists believe-however i've seen many buddhists argue that Buddha didn't really say that.

It's a bit like the various branches of christianity arguing over who has the correct interpretation on the 'word of Jesus'

The link on 'sunyata' that i posted though is not contingent of accepting the Buddhist beliefs you have summarised above.It is a subsection of Buddhism that just happens to match this 'dialetical monism' concept(broadly speaking).

As for dialectical monism, I had never heard of it until a page or two back. Does it offer a supernatural explanation of conciousness in a philosophical context?

No.Belief in the supernatural is not required.

It is a philosophical attempt to solve the problem of of the mind-body dichotomy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-body_problem

it's a problem that can't be solved by science alone.

 

[Tiger74]

The reincarnation bit is an interesting one.

I can accept the idea that if the body is just a shell for the soul, a soul/spirit may find itself in another "shell" for whatever reason (path to enlightment, unfinished business, heaven is full, etc). I do however have doubts on retained memory claims. If a soul is given the chance to have "a new life", having retained memories takes away the newness, and just makes it the original redone. That concept I dont quite buy.

Also I have a question of moving from intelligent to non-intelligent beings and vice versa. If this is part of a punishment for past sins, or the early steps to enlightment, I just dont get it. A dog is a dog is a dog, and Im not sure what great lessons on life and meaning you can have being an unintelligent animal. Also as my wife points out, life as a dog is pretty good (especially in our house). You sleep, eat, sh1t, and "have fun" all day. You have food and shelter provided for, and people to look after you. Sounds pretty good to me!

 

[evo]

Tiges74.This is the best Buddha discoure I've come across.I reckon if you can truly understand what he is saying here,you're a long way along the road to enlightment.


http://members.optushome.com.au/davidquinn000/Buddhist%20Writings/Kutadanta.htm

He actually says in this what i was talking about before and earlier in this thread that 're-incarnation' happens within one lifetime,(ie we are inconstant change or rebirth) and that once you die your sole doesn't literally travel to the next entity only some of 'you' will still be about after you die.

<snip>

Kutadanta: You believe that beings are reborn,
that they migrate in the evolution of life,
and that subject to the law of karma we must reap what we sow.
Yet you also teach the non-existence of the soul!
Your disciples praise utter self-extinction
as the highest bliss of Nirvana.
If I am merely a combination of the sankharas,
my existence will cease when I die.
If I am merely a compound of sensations and ideas and desires,
where can I go at the dissolution of the body?

Buddha: O Brahman, you are religious and earnest.
You are seriously concerned about your soul.
Yet your work is in vain because you are lacking
in the one thing that is needful.

There is rebirth of character,
but no transmigration of a self.
Your thought-forms reappear,
but there is no ego-entity transferred.
The stanza uttered by a teacher
is reborn in the student who repeats the words.




eg.things you have taught your son,or interesting things you have written that people remembered etc.

Thats my take on it anyway.

have a goood read of it dude.It really is very good IMO.

 

[Tiger74]

Thanks for the link Evo, very interesting reading.

I had a slightly different take on it, but the same ( :spin)

Our experiences and learnings change and evolve us, modifying the self as we develop. Death is just another experience however, so while a minor event will evolve us slightly, death and rebirth is a little more substantive.

More importantly as we achieve enlightment and full understanding of truth, it is only appropriate that the self becomes "one" in Nirvana, as we recognise we are all connected and accept the oneness of the universe we become a part of this oneness.


Very clumsy I know, but still getting my head around it. I feel I am a long way from Enlightenment!

Thanks for the link though, very enjoyable reading

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Re: Life, the Universe, and Everything

I agree how we define "good" and "evil" is a social and cultural definition. I do wonder about it though...

If we believe we are all belong to some great earth spirit (not referring to your beliefs here btw), I think how nature works would be an indicator for this. In general, the "natural" world has no evil. Most animals and plants kill or maim for either food or security. We on the otherhand do these things for reasons for greed, pride, power, etc..

A little bit off topic, but there was an interesting study recently published looking at spite and punishment in chimpanzees. Check it out.

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-07-17T024156Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-285100-1.xml&archived=False

I would also like to say farewell to the Yangtze River Dolphin - now declared officially extinct. The first large vertebrate extinction in about 50 years.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/dolphin+species+declared+extinct/659872

 

[Stripes]

I've been traveling interstate this week so haven't had an opportunity to view any of the links posted as yet, but I do have a quick take on the concept of reincarnation. Until recently (and thanks to a learned friend ;D) I always thought it meant the soul's incarnation over many lifetimes. But now I've come to realise it means the personality (or ego mind) that reincarnates in a life time, not the soul.

So if its the personality (ego mind) which experiences reincarnation, then Enlightenment must occur at the point where the mind (and all other parts that make up the soul) converge as one. This IMO is the void I've mentioned before at which point we can truly acknowledge the oneness of being.

But what constitutes a "life time"? Surely a life time cannot be limited to the perception of one reality in which we consciously exist?? I mean, is this all there is to life, right here right now?!!! Tiges about to be absolutely pummeled (again)?!! NO WAY!! There must be more "life times" and I'm convinced they exist simultaneously. String theory? Maybe. But I do believe that explains why some people have recollections or experiences of "previous lives". They're simply tapping into a part of their infinite and unlimited potential of consciousness that exists, like energy, in multiple waves, frequencies and dimensions.

 

[Stripes]

Re: Christianity

One notion about consciousness that I occasionally like to indulge in is the Scientological idea that 'thetans' exist on another plane to those that are tangible and visible. That's about as far as it goes, though. You have to be careful when you invoke Scientological concepts. :hihi

:hihi Tread carefully in Scientology young Bear, you may not escape. >

Actually I shouldn't say that as I don't know anything about Scientology. Does this concept of "Thetans" come from the brainwave state of Theta? What are these "thetans" that you speak of?

 

[Tiger74]

I have always been tempted to walk into the book shop on Russell Street just to see what their brainwashing program is like :cutelaugh

 

[Stripes]

I have always been tempted to walk into the book shop on Russell Street just to see what their brainwashing program is like :cutelaugh

:hihi I reckon a few of us 'heathens' should saddle up one day and go in for a bit of a Q&A session. Maybe after our next 100pt shellacking just so that we're really in the mood! Get some Redfordology t-shirts printed and go check em out. >

 

[Curtiger]

Re: Christianity

One notion about consciousness that I occasionally like to indulge in is the Scientological idea that 'thetans' exist on another plane to those that are tangible and visible. That's about as far as it goes, though. You have to be careful when you invoke Scientological concepts. :hihi

:hihi Tread carefully in Scientology young Bear, you may not escape. >

Actually I shouldn't say that as I don't know anything about Scientology. Does this concept of "Thetans" come from the brainwave state of Theta? What are these "thetans" that you speak of?

From my understanding, they are all around us, 'in the ether'. Some may actually be 'clinging' to you right now (incorporeal entities can do that now ).