Global Warming

[Big Cat Lover]

Some excellent points BCL, and I take those on board. Remember though my goal is to debunk G-man's hypothesis that free markets are inherently better than regulated markets - depending on what indicators you use, the German economy is highly regulated and yet highly successful. But no, it's far from a utopia. Issues of social welfare are another issue

The technological question is pertinent. In the past Western countries could often stay ahead of the game by better innovation and R&D rolled out into better product development - Japan and Korea excepted. There are many reasons why Germany is still a massively successful manufacturing and exporting economy - and I'd still argue that they are well placed to remain in this position, and these reasons are mostly cultural and social! German industrial culture is all about design, precision, quality and these things are highly valued. Just watch how the Germans play football. High levels of technical ability, high levels of discipline, high levels of organisation, high levels of training, combined with a high degree of innovation.

I'd agree Australia is somewhat well placed, but not because we are self-sufficient. We aren't. What do you mean by "self-sufficient" anyway?

Good points antman

I'm thinking self-sufficient at a basic level in that if all access to the outside world was cut off we have the natural resources to grow our own food, skills to manufacture etc. The obvious issue is a reliance on crude oil imports. Hopefully this is reduced with the growth of the alternative energy industry.

 

[Giardiasis]

Wikipedia is great starting point for factual information. Oh and now it's about spending more than they produce? I thought it was all about free(er) markets vs highly regulated ones. No backsliding dude.

Perhaps I should go on a patronising rant about the quality of its references then? Factual information is good indeed.

No backslide, government spending is poison to free markets. All that regulation costs wealth.

What? OECD economies are still very very large, very very productive and very very important. Asia is growing fast as are the BRIC countries, but don't write off the West! And to prove how poorly you read, Germany is the second largest exporter in the world. THE WORLD. Pretty tall midget indeed.

Personally I think the West is stuffed, far too much debt to finance consumption, and now their governments are trying to use inflation to pay debt. If you think the GFC is over you are mistaken.

Why is exports the be all and end all of economic performance?

There are problems with the examples you produced. You have not addressed these.

There will always be problems with them, as I said no country has free markets.

I don't have an economic philosophy dude. I'm not an idealogue. I don't think regulated economies are inherently better. I don't think free markets are inherently better. I think in the real world there are various mixes of these and some work well for different reasons.

What do you think of this Keynes quote?
"The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist."

Seems to me Keynes has you figured out.

Here's another hint - just because I quote JM Keynes does not mean I think he is "right". He was "right" about some things, "wrong" about others no doubt. But when he said "in the long run we are all dead", he was most definitely right.

No but it does show you would tend to favour him. Stop pretending like you don't bother with economic philosophy.

 

[AngryAnt]

Seems to me Keynes has you figured out.
No but it does show you would tend to favour him. Stop pretending like you don't bother with economic philosophy.

You and JM Keynes have me well figured out apparently...

Anyway, I've had a change of heart. Freedom of markets is important and a clear success factor and an indicator that countries and governments are doing the right thing. You are right, Hong Kong and Singapore are world leaders in this area, and we should follow their lead. Interestingly, the US Heritage Foundation has just released the 2012 Index of Economic Freedom.

Just FYI, here is the top ten for 2012.

world rank country overall score change from previous
1
Hong Kong
89.9 0.2
2
Singapore
87.5 0.3
3
Australia
83.1 0.6
4
New Zealand
82.1 -0.2
5
Switzerland
81.1 -0.8
6
Canada
79.9 -0.9
7
Chile
78.3 0.9
8
Mauritius
77.0 0.8
9
Ireland
76.9 -1.8
10
United States
76.3 -1.5

http://www.heritage.org/index/

 

[AngryAnt]

Nothing more to say eh Giardiasis?

 

[Giardiasis]

What am I supposed to respond to?

 

[tigersnake]

The bottom line is that the free market is a phantom, a fantasy. Politics and the market are unavoidably and inextricably linked. Politics is the battle over who gets what. To believe in a free market devoid of politics is to believe in the tooth fairy or the easter bunny. Or its like saying 'who would win in the centre battle between M Rioli and Judd?'. It might be fun to talk and think about, but it can't and never will happen. As I showed with the slavery example, one mans free market is another man's market failure that needs regulation. The market is there to distribute goods and services to people. People are political animals, we have to be, its not good or bad, it just is. Unless there is only one person on earth, we will engage in politics to get what we need and want.

 

[AngryAnt]

What am I supposed to respond to?

Nothing at all. I thought you might be happy to see Australia ranked third in the world on your favourite indicator of freedom of markets.

Carry on.

 

[Giardiasis]

Nothing at all. I thought you might be happy to see Australia ranked third in the world on your favourite indicator of freedom of markets.

Carry on.

Cool, room for improvement.

 

[evo]

how can Singapore be second in freedom of markets? It is one of the most managed economies in the first world. The bosses wife is the major shareholder in Singtel (or one of the other Singpore big caps- I'm lost without wikipedia. ;D )

 

[AngryAnt]

Cool, room for improvement.

So should we improve by becoming a command and control economy like Singapore or by abolishing the private ownership of land as in Hong Kong?

 

[KnightersRevenge]

I don't have any of the knowledge or experience to post here. But I'm going to anyway. This is beginning to sound like a religious thread....my philosophy over yours. I have the one and only right way come follow me...etc. IMO free markets are a construct of the dominant economies that take advantage of the weaker fledgling nations trying to better themselves by making them compete on a playing field that was built on slave labour and closed systems. Free?

 

[tigersnake]

sounds reasonable to me KR

 

[Merveille]

A small snapshot of the 'spoilers'... those that spoil any chance of convincing sceptic about the science of global warming..
it's raining lots..

Greens leader Bob Brown in 2006:


From melting polar ice to the spectre of permanent drought in previously productive farmlands, the (World Meteorological Bureau’s) report makes clear that climate change is not just a future threat, it is damaging Australia now.

Brown in 2008:


Already, (Rudd government adviser Ross Garnaut’s) daunting data of a 10 per cent chance of no flow at all in the Murray-Darling river system in future years is being overtaken by data indicating that drought is the new norm across Australia’s greatest food bowl.
The Sydney Morning Herald in 2008:


This drought may never break

IT MAY be time to stop describing south-eastern Australia as gripped by drought and instead accept the extreme dry as permanent, one of the nation’s most senior weather experts warned yesterday.

“Perhaps we should call it our new climate,” said the Bureau of Meteorology’s head of climate analysis, David Jones....

“There is a debate in the climate community, after … close to 12 years of drought, whether this is something permanent. Certainly, in terms of temperature, that seems to be our reality, and that there is no turning back....”


Jones to the University of East Anglia in 2007:




Truth be know, climate change here is now running so rampant that we don’t need meteorological data to see it. Almost everyone of our cities is on the verge of running out of water and our largest irrigation system (the Murray Darling Basin is on the verge of collapse...

The Age in 2009:


A three-year collaboration between the Bureau of Meteorology and CSIRO has confirmed what many scientists long suspected: that the 13-year drought is not just a natural dry stretch but a shift related to climate change…

‘’It’s reasonable to say that a lot of the current drought of the last 12 to 13 years is due to ongoing global warming,’’ said the bureau’s Bertrand Timbal.

‘’In the minds of a lot of people, the rainfall we had in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s was a benchmark. A lot of our [water and agriculture] planning was done during that time. But we are just not going to have that sort of good rain again as long as the system is warming up.’’...

Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery in 2007:


Flannery predicted cities such as Brisbane would never again have dam-filling rains, as global warming had caused “a 20 per cent decrease in rainfall in some areas” and made the soil too hot, “so even the rain that falls isn’t actually going to fill our dams and river systems … “.

 

[mld]

IMO free markets are a construct of the dominant economies that take advantage of the weaker fledgling nations trying to better themselves by making them compete on a playing field that was built on slave labour and closed systems. Free?

On the contrary, the ability to freely trade is the best way for developing nations to, well, develop. It is the protectionist policies from developed nations (especially in relation to agriculture) that are holding developing nations at a disadvantage.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

On the contrary, the ability to freely trade is the best way for developing nations to, well, develop. It is the protectionist policies from developed nations (especially in relation to agriculture) that are holding developing nations at a disadvantage.

This is an "ideal world" type arguement. Why should the emerging nations compete in a market that the established economies never had to cope with?

 

[mld]

This is an "ideal world" type arguement. Why should the emerging nations compete in a market that the established economies never had to cope with?

Of course it isn't a 'ideal world' type argument. You aren't quite getting it; it isn't that developing nations would have a disadvantage competing with established economies, it is that the protectionist policies of developed nations are preventing them from doing so.

Development has been fuelled by trade throughout history. I really don't see why this should change now.

 

[tigersnake]

My impression of Knighters original post was that the markets are rigged in favour of the powerful countries who wrongly label them as free. Thats not exactly what he said, but thats what I thought he meant anyway, sorry if I'm putting word in your mouth KR.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

My impression of Knighters original post was that the markets are rigged in favour of the powerful countries who wrongly label them as free. Thats not exactly what he said, but thats what I thought he meant anyway, sorry if I'm putting word in your mouth KR.

That's a cleverer and more succinct point, but if you want to call it a refining of my point you go right ahead ts.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Of course it isn't a 'ideal world' type argument. You aren't quite getting it; it isn't that developing nations would have a disadvantage competing with established economies, it is that the protectionist policies of developed nations are preventing them from doing so.

Development has been fuelled by trade throughout history. I really don't see why this should change now.

I get it just fine. The powerful western economies grew inside their protective regimes before they traded outside. They were already strong. This is something the fledglings can't do. This is why the free market is nice idea but doesn't actually exist.

 

[Merveille]

Signed by 16 umm.................scientists...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577171531838421366.html?mod=rss_opinion_main