Global Warming

[TigerMasochist]

Don't need another dam, piping water from the tropics is the way to go. It could be in close proximity (not too close) to the Brisbane to Melbourne Inland Railway Line that is under construction.
NSW, ACT, Victoria and SA water would have truck loads of water.

That'd take a fairly long hose n probably a pump or three to push the water over a couple of hills. Pretty sure we've got a fairly large creek out the back near Orbost somewhere n all the water simply runs into the ocean. Could set up a way shorter hose n probably less pumping stations to top up our water supplies, but Naaahhhhh, never gunna happen.

 

[TigerMasochist]

There was talk a few years ago of piping water from the Ord River to Perth.
Harnessing the tropical storms overflow on the Ord River spillway.
It seems to have been abandoned now. Not sure why, probably the capital costs.

There is a new desal plant proposed to be built at Alkimos (north of Perth) at a cost of $2.8 billion.
That’s the 3rd big desal plant for WA.
I’m not sure where all the brine overflow goes. I think the desal plant at Kwinana had to be shut down a few times because of low oxygen levels in the sea from the brine.

Haven't they got some fancy big inland water supply up there somewhere about six times as big as Sydney harbour or something????. Build a pipeline n a couple of pumping stations to push the water along n they'd never ever run out. Naaaahhhh never gunna happen when we can build a *smile* load of desal plants n pump massive loads of heavy brine back in around the shore line.

Wonder why they never drain that brine into a couple of salt pans n get some fancy salt they could sell off. Oh wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, salts not good for you, *smile* cans that idea in a hurry.

 

[Sintiger]

Perhaps they can tell you which years in the last 200 have not seen an increase in the sea level? Answer is none.

Well of course. The sea level has been rising since the last ice age but that’s not the real issue. It is the speed at which the rise has occurred since the rapid increase in CO2 in the atmosphere.
I am not a climate scientist but I have read a lot of reports that the current sea level is significantly higher than it would have been without such changes.
There are plenty to see with a google search.
Here’s one.

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level

 

[bengal tigers]

So when the whole of Victoria goes into drought,every one connected to the mains water get supply from the Desal.NOOOO,but yet all Victorians who pay tax have to pay for it.
Were is my constitutional lawyer WILLO, l want to create a new state in Victoria ,one for Metro,and the other the new republic of country Victoria.

First call is remove the desal plant and put it on the St KILDA Foreshore ,Luna Park might be a good spot.
Then remove all the wind/solar farms from country Victoria ,and put them in Rockbank/Melton areas ,,they are already environmentally damaged areas ,and eyesores so no one would careless.

Offshore wind farms can be moved off the shore of Williamstown/Altona they already have a level of sewerage around,so more *smile* shouldn't matter.

Off to work Willo

 

[Sintiger]

So when the whole of Victoria goes into drought,every one connected to the mains water get supply from the Desal.NOOOO,but yet all Victorians who pay tax have to pay for it.
Were is my constitutional lawyer WILLO, l want to create a new state in Victoria ,one for Metro,and the other the new republic of country Victoria.

First call is remove the desal plant and put it on the St KILDA Foreshore ,Luna Park might be a good spot.
Then remove all the wind/solar farms from country Victoria ,and put them in Rockbank/Melton areas ,,they are already environmentally damaged areas ,and eyesores so no one would careless.

Offshore wind farms can be moved off the shore of Williamstown/Altona they already have a level of sewerage around,so more *smile* shouldn't matter.

Off to work Willo

Yeah I agree. I don’t have any kids at school anymore so I want a refund on my share of the education budget.
It’s only fair

 

[Willo]

Haven't they got some fancy big inland water supply up there somewhere about six times as big as Sydney harbour or something????. Build a pipeline n a couple of pumping stations to push the water along n they'd never ever run out. Naaaahhhh never gunna happen when we can build a *smile* load of desal plants n pump massive loads of heavy brine back in around the shore line.

Wonder why they never drain that brine into a couple of salt pans n get some fancy salt they could sell off. Oh wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, salts not good for you, *smile* cans that idea in a hurry.

Yeah that’s Lake Argyle. 18 times the size of Sydney Harbour.

The dramatic change the ‘wet’ brings to Lake Argyle – in pictures

Ben Broady took two series of shots – one in 2020 and another this month after the yearly monsoons – to illustrate the WA lake’s boom and bust cycle

www.theguardian.com

WA spent $2 billion on the Ord River Irrigation Scheme. Takes in Lake Argyle, the Ord River, Lake Kununurra.

Ord Dam safety warning as spillway overflows

www.watercorporation.com.au

 

[Willo]

The desalination can produce up to 150 billion litres of high-quality drinking water a year. That’s one-third of Melbourne’s needs.

It has delivered 455 GL since it was turned on in 2016-17 and 23.9 GL during commissioning in 2012...........So it has provided one year of Melbournes water needs.

When the next draught happens, which might last longer than the last draught when Melbournes dam levels were down to 28%, having dropped 20% in ONE year, it will be vital to topping up Melbournes catchments areas.

So if all the dams are bone dry because of a long drought. The Wonthaggi desal plant can give Melbourne 1/3 of its needs. For how long?
So no doubt there will be a daily limit on everyone. A quota.

I wonder if the dam level gets too low, can they pump from the desal plant to any dams?

That way there could be a contingency plan if the desal plant or pumps or any other major equipment broke down. Otherwise water would have to be trucked in, or live off bottled water.
Of course more dams should be build. It’s ok for a desal plant to run 24/7 but if it breaks down where does the water come from?
I’ve heard a smiler argument before with solar panels. They’re all right when they’re working, when; they aren’t you got …nothing

Why they couldn’t have a ring main system between dams and the desal plant has got me stuffed. Top up any dam as they’re getting low, pump water between dams. All before Armageddon of long term drought and a desla plant that only has been at 10% use.
Crazy fools.

 

[tigerman]

So if all the dams are bone dry because of a long drought. The Wonthaggi desal plant can give Melbourne 1/3 of its needs. For how long?
So no doubt there will be a daily limit on everyone. A quota.

I wonder if the dam level gets too low, can they pump from the desal plant to any dams?

That way there could be a contingency plan if the desal plant or pumps or any other major equipment broke down. Otherwise water would have to be trucked in, or live off bottled water.
Of course more dams should be build. It’s ok for a desal plant to run 24/7 but if it breaks down where does the water come from?
I’ve heard a smiler argument before with solar panels. They’re all right when they’re working, when; they aren’t you got …nothing

Why they couldn’t have a ring main system between dams and the desal plant has got me stuffed. Top up any dam as they’re getting low, pump water between dams. All before Armageddon of long term drought and a desla plant that only has been at 10% use.
Crazy fools.

The desalination plant receives a Water Order when dam levels get down to a certain level, from memory, it's when dam levels are at 60%.

 

[Willo]

The desalination plant receives a Water Order when dam levels get down to a certain level, from memory, it's when dam levels are at 60%.

A Water Order to do what mate? To increase pumping/production to the city?
Do you know if the desal plant pump to any dams?

(I might have a bit of a read up to see how it works)

 

[tigerman]

A Water Order to do what mate? To increase pumping/production to the city?
Do you know if the desal plant pump to any dams?

(I might have a bit of a read up to see how it works)

A water order is for it to commence operating. It pipes water to Melbourne's water catchment areas.

 

[Willo]

Victorian desalination project background​

Understand the driving forces behind the Victorian desalination project.

​

In June 2007, Victoria was in the grip of the Millennium Drought. Melbourne’s water storages were at 29% and reservoirs had fallen by 20% over the previous 12 months. Stage 3a water restrictions had not stopped the decline in water storage levels and the gap between supply and need for water over the previous year was about 250 GL.
On 19 June 2007, the Victorian Government announced the desalination project after Melbourne Water completed a feasibility study.
On 30 July 2009, the Victorian Government awarded AquaSure the project contract. Aquasure would finance, build, maintain and operate the project for 30 years with a fixed price of $3.5 billion. The project included a desalination plant capable of delivering 150 gigalitres per year when operating at full capacity (expandable to 200 gigalitres/year) and a transfer pipeline connecting the plant to the existing Melbourne and regional water supply systems.
On 30 November 2012, Commercial Acceptance of the project was achieved. At that time, the plant proved that it could produce high-quality drinking water at full capacity.
To achieve Reliability Testing Finalisation (the final commissioning test), the plant was required to operate at full capacity for 30 days to test the reliability of all systems.

150 gigalitres could fill an Olympic-sized swimming pool around 60,000 times or the Melbourne Cricket Ground 95 times

Located in Wonthaggi, the plant was fully commissioned on 17 December 2012. It is now fully operational.
The plant can supply up to 150 billion litres of water each year and is connected to Melbourne Water, South Gippsland Water and Westernport Water’s supply systems. Read the desalination project timeline.

Pipelines and power supply​

The desalinated water is delivered to a system of catchments across Victoria. Water authorities deliver this water to households in:

• Melbourne and Geelong
• South Gippsland and Bass Coast
• Western Port areas.

An 84 km underground pipeline connects the plant and transfer main at Berwick. The transfer main then pumps water into Cardinia Reservoir. Silvan Reservoir can also receive desalinated water.
Local water authorities get desalinated water via offtake points along the pipeline. The pipeline is two-way, so local water authorities also have access to Melbourne water storages for the first time.
An 87 km underground power supply is co-located in the same easement with the pipeline. All the power used for the plant and pipeline is offset through renewable energy credits. These credits are sourced by AquaSure through AGL. Fibre optic cables are also installed with the power supply and pipeline. These help monitor activity and operations across the plant, pipelines and power supply.

Connecting the plant to power and water grids.​

Other initiatives included:

• a $12m upgrade of key roads and intersections in Wonthaggi. This included the site access roads and the highway connections
• an 11 km pipeline connecting Wonthaggi, Inverloch and Cape Patterson to the plant at a cost of $5 million. It has the capacity to carry up to 10 million litres of water a day to South Gippsland Water
• facilities upgrades at the Lang Lang Showgrounds
• upgrades at recreation reserves at Koo Wee Rup, Glen Forbes and Grantville

Victorian desalination project background

Read about the desalination project background, the project parties and benefits it provided to the community, including environmental restoration projects.

www.water.vic.gov.au

I found some answers to some of my questions.
There are take off points along the main desal pipeline. Not quite a ring main, but can be directed to several areas not just Cardinia Dam which supplies Melbourne.

I’m still trying to find a list of dams that can be topped up by the desal plant.

Water storage levels | Melbourne Water

View daily water storage levels and inflow, rainfall over the catchments and Melbourne’s total water use.

www.melbournewater.com.au

Some good information and a good video that gives a fair explanation of how the water pipeline system/desal plant works.
Very interesting

Desalination | Melbourne Water

The Victorian Government’s desalination plant complements our catchments by providing a secure, rainfall-independent source of water for Melbourne.

www.melbournewater.com.au

 

[Willo]

A water order is for it to commence operating. It pipes water to Melbourne's water catchment areas.

I had a read up and posted some links below to get more understanding of how it all works.
Since most of the storage dams are at over 60%+ capacity, the desal plant only needs to be ticking over.
The Water Order is to start mass production/ pumping when the Order is processed.

 

[Wildride]

Nuclear is unviable because of economics, not engineering

Even if all that mattered was the cheapest possible energy that meets minimum levels of reliability and emissions, the Coalition’s plan fails.

www.afr.com

 

[TigerMasochist]

Well of course. The sea level has been rising since the last ice age but that’s not the real issue. It is the speed at which the rise has occurred since the rapid increase in CO2 in the atmosphere.
I am not a climate scientist but I have read a lot of reports that the current sea level is significantly higher than it would have been without such changes.


https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level

Bloody time to stop all those people going to the beach n pissing in the ocean, no wonder the sea level's rising. And *smile* well warming.

 

[TigerMasochist]

.
Of course more dams should be build. It’s ok for a desal plant to run 24/7 but if it breaks down where does the water come from?


Why they couldn’t have a ring main system between dams and the desal plant has got me stuffed. Top up any dam as they’re getting low, pump water between dams. All before Armageddon of long term drought and a desla plant that only has been at 10% use.
Crazy fools.

From vague old fart memory we've also got a sneaky pipeline hidden away somewhere that runs from up near Wodonga / Wangaratta to probably around Bonnie Doon. Not certain but thinking it mighta been built around the Bracks / Brumby era n it's another one of those expensive great ideas that only got turned on for testing n it's been a home for rats n rabbits ever since.

 

[DavidSSS]

Not sure what you are saying? USA agreed to triple its nuclear plants at latest COP, bi-partisan agreement with this. Even the smallest research effort will show that the "toxic HL waste" is not and has not been a serious problem for many years. Are you an advisor to the Vic Government?

They can say what they like, but what is the reality?

The USA last added a reactor to the grid in 2016, the previous one was in 1996. So, if we look at the last 25 years - one reactor added. In the same 25 years they have closed 13 reactors.

USA adding nuclear power is a fiction, did you just make that up . . . or maybe the US nuclear lobby made it up to have something to say at the COP conference. Either way it is BS.

While on the topic of BS, yeah, you claim the USA has no serious problem with waste - that is laughable, or would be if we weren't dealing with toxic radioactive waste. They have 88,000 tonnes of nuclear waste and it is languishing at the reactor sites because there is no safe way to dispose of nuclear waste for the time periods required. Even if you accept the speculation that deep geological repositories will work (they have no idea because nothing humans have ever done has come remotely close to dealing with these time periods and we know that radioactive waste degrades the storage containers). There is no safe way to dispose of nuclear waste, and the USA is not even close to dealing with the problem.

You can say what you like, but it contradicts reality.

DS

 

[Willo]

They can say what they like, but what is the reality?

The USA last added a reactor to the grid in 2016, the previous one was in 1996. So, if we look at the last 25 years - one reactor added. In the same 25 years they have closed 13 reactors.

USA adding nuclear power is a fiction, did you just make that up . . . or maybe the US nuclear lobby made it up to have something to say at the COP conference. Either way it is BS.

Maybe you need to keep up to date.

The newest reactor to enter service is Vogtle Unit 4 at the Alvin W.Vogtle Electric Generating Plant in Georgia that began commercial operation on April 29, 2024. The next-youngest operating reactor is Vogtle Unit 3, which began commercial electricity generation in July 2023.
So there’s. 2 you missed.

First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in operation - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

More on the way?

https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/4-nuclear-energy-storylines-watch-2024

Another 4 to have construction permit applications lodged by the end of the year.

While on the topic of BS, yeah, you claim the USA has no serious problem with waste - that is laughable, or would be if we weren't dealing with toxic radioactive waste. They have 88,000 tonnes of nuclear waste and it is languishing at the reactor sites because there is no safe way to dispose of nuclear waste for the time periods required. Even if you accept the speculation that deep geological repositories will work (they have no idea because nothing humans have ever done has come remotely close to dealing with these time periods and we know that radioactive waste degrades the storage containers).

Well if they’ve encased in lead and concrete and then stored in boreholes at depths up to 5 klm. Then filled again. I believe the scientists that come up with these proposals. No doubt they’ve done modelling on it all.
Just like the climate change scientists that do modelling..

Trust the science.

There is no safe way to dispose of nuclear waste, and the USA is not even close to dealing with the problem.

Technology changes . Now HALEU high assay low enriched uranium. DOE is working to build a reliable supply of high-assay low-enriched uranium (HALEU) by incentivizing the commercial industry to build new production capacity

You can say what you like, but it contradicts reality.

DS

 

[DavidSSS]

Ok, the IAEA is out of date - in the last 25 years 3 reactors started up and 13 closed - that is not how you triple your nuclear plants which was the claim.

4 have construction permit applications, wow, charging ahead! Those Vogtle reactors got their permits in 2008, so maybe they would get a couple of reactors by 2041, if the permits are approved by the end of 2024. Plus, 2 more may have been completed in the time since the IAEA info was updated, but in 2021 the US Congressional Research Office identified 7 reactors with closures announced by their operators, of which 1 is already closed so already included in the figure of 13 I mentioned - we can add another 6 closing soon (possibly already closed but not in the IAEA list yet). The reason given for 5 of these 7 closures was operating losses, in other words, the power they generate is too expensive to turn a profit. They will continue to close as, in 2018, the average age of nuclear reactors in the USA was 37 years old, - at that time they had 99 reactors, of which 1 was less than 20 years old.

As far as I have seen the USA is basically storing the nuclear waste in cooling ponds. The spent fuel rods sit in the ponds and there is no secondary defence if something goes wrong. The USA is far from even attempting to deal with the waste, let alone have dealt with the waste which was the claim made.

The Finns are proposing to use the KBS-3 method which encases the waste in copper, then bentonite clay and crystalline bedrock. Copper corrodes and research has found it may only last 100 years and is unlikely to last more than 1,000 years. There are questions as to whether the bentonite clay can isolate the copper, which would mean decay in far shorter time periods. Plus you have to factor in that radioactive waste creates heat and is radioactive, both of which compromise any storage medium. With the time scales involved you can see the problem, which after 70 years of the nuclear power industry remains unsolved.

No matter if you encase the waste in a container which should isolate the material from the environment, the thermal power in experiments has shown materials heating to 80C which compromises a lot of the proposed materials, even causing structural changes in the permeability of materials used.

As for technology change, we have heard that way too often from the nuclear industry and their promises have, time and again, proved to be BS.

Not content with polluting the land and sea, humans now want to pollute the Earth's crust with nuclear waste.

DS

 

[Willo]

Russia and China are in front of the US in nuclear energy abroad​

Russia is leading in selling its nuclear technology abroad, with 19 reactors — mostly conventional — under construction in seven countries. China is selling two overseas but is building more than any nation at home, and has the only land-based small modular reactor (SMR) operating commercially. The US has no international projects under construction but is courting countries with its SMR technology.​

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/01/climate/nuclear-small-modular-reactors-us-russia-china-climate-solution-intl/index.html

Some interesting reading.

 

[Willo]

Nuclear reactors under construction worldwide 2023 | Statista

There were 57 new nuclear reactors under construction in the world in 2023, of which the majority were located in China.

www.statista.com

Planned nuclear power reactors by country 2024 | Statista

As of May 2024, almost half of the planned nuclear reactors worldwide were in China.

www.statista.com

Nuclear power plants in the world 2024 | Statista

How many nuclear power plants are there in the world? Although 32 countries owned a nuclear reactor, the U.S. had roughly 20 percent of them.

www.statista.com