Franklin

[Coburgtiger]

What baloney. Franklin wins games for his side that they would lose without him. Has one deficiency and that's his kicking style, but seems to cover that deficiency quite well, he did afterall kick 100+ goals in a season. The other is his marking, we know he has had shoulder problems, but in the grand final he had 4 contested marks, more than any other, so glaring deficiency I think not.

I don't think he's the best player in the league by the way but he's certainly up there with the best.

He's a poor contested mark for his size, and a horrible kick. Call it baloney, but I would have thought those would be important areas for in which a full forward should be proficient.

He has had shoulder problems? At one point in his career he's twinged a shoulder so that excuses him for the rest of his career for being unable to grab the ball above his head? I wish every player was afforded these concessions, I wonder how good Reiwoldt would be if he were looked at through Buddy Coloured Glasses.

And while we're attributing all performance to injury, Franklin took those four contested marks on a Teddy Richards with one ankle, two of which involved having two grabs at it, and three of which happened while teddy fell on his arse.

I'm in no way suggesting Franklin is a bad player. At all. He's a magnificent athlete, and produces some breathtaking plays.

I will simply never understand how his flaws are so easily ignored. Cotchin gets flack for his imagined poor disposal under pressure, Jack gets condemned for frowning every now and then. And franklin is the greatest player in the universe, everytime he's on screen he gets mentioned, even when he turns it over it's due to his creativity, and everyone else can shut up *stick fingers in ears and go nanananananananananananana*

He's a magificent footballer, and has been almost as good as Jack over the last three years, even though it's 1 coleman to 2, one players kicked over 60 goals for the past three years, one hasn't, one's played in a side that keeps finished top four, one plays for richmond....Okay, so that's abit tongue in cheek.

He is a magnificent player. His hype allows for some sugarcoating of his flaws.

 

[cmarkidis]

24 possessions, 8 marks, 4 contested marks, 7 inside 50s, 3 goals. Last 10 games, 13 goals, 4, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3. Yep he is terribly ineffective is Franklin. Franklin is unique. None of Lloyd, Lynch or Hall had the ability to kick goals and make opportunities out of nothing like Franklin can.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics....

Too much is made of stats these days. They can never be a complete measure. Reminds me of the Knights v Campbell hypothetical. I would take Knighta with half Campbell's stats any day of the week. These matters are subjective, and as I said, imo, I would take all of those mentioned before Buddy. You don't have to agree.

 

[GoodOne]

He's a poor contested mark for his size, and a horrible kick. Call it baloney, but I would have thought those would be important areas for in which a full forward should be proficient.

522 goals 376 behinds in 159 games doesn't indicate a horrible kick to me. Is he the best kick to ever don a jumper, no far from it, but when you create so many opportunities you can afford to miss a few and still be in the elite class - which he is.

He has had shoulder problems? At one point in his career he's twinged a shoulder so that excuses him for the rest of his career for being unable to grab the ball above his head? I wish every player was afforded these concessions, I wonder how good Reiwoldt would be if he were looked at through Buddy Coloured Glasses.

His shoulder problems have been well documented. First time I've ever heard a player needing surgery on a twinged shoulder. Again is he the best contested mark in the competition? Far from it, and yes it would be scary if he was a stronger mark, but again he's so strong once it hits the ground, he can get away with not being as stronger mark as he could be. I happen to think at his best Reiwoldt is just as valuable as Buddy so forget this rose-coloured glass rubbish.

And while we're attributing all performance to injury, Franklin took those four contested marks on a Teddy Richards with one ankle, two of which involved having two grabs at it, and three of which happened while teddy fell on his arse.

No ones attributing performance to injury, regardless of Franklin's shoulder problems he's still performed unbelievably over time. So Franklin's contested marks can be attributed to Richards, yet Frankln was 7th this year for total contested marks. Was he playing on an injured Richard all year, or was everyone else injured as well.

I will simply never understand how his flaws are so easily ignored.

Weird comment. His flaws as you put it have been discussed ad-nauseum over time. It's never been ignored and sometimes you think it's discussed too often when you compare it to his output over the years.

He's a magificent footballer, and has been almost as good as Jack over the last three years, even though it's 1 coleman to 2, one players kicked over 60 goals for the past three years, one hasn't, one's played in a side that keeps finished top four, one plays for richmond....Okay, so that's abit tongue in cheek.

Getting the picture now, this has nothing to do with Buddy per se but about Rewioldt. Do you ever check your stats by the way, you make a lot of mistakes. Both have kicked over 60 goals in each of the last 3 seasons. On average goals a game for last 3 years Buddy is 3.6, 3.7, 3.6, Reiwoldt's is 3.2, 2.8, 3.6. So if you're going to use goals kicked in a season and Coleman medals as the gauge of an elite forward footballer (which you shouldn't) then your argument is flawed anyway.

He is a magnificent player.

And in summary we agree.

 

[IanG]

and we've never seen a player with anything like his athleticism or mobility as a key forward.

Richo?

 

[Coburgtiger]

522 goals 376 behinds in 159 games doesn't indicate a horrible kick to me. Is he the best kick to ever don a jumper, no far from it, but when you create so many opportunities you can afford to miss a few and still be in the elite class - which he is.

His shoulder problems have been well documented. First time I've ever heard a player needing surgery on a twinged shoulder. Again is he the best contested mark in the competition? Far from it, and yes it would be scary if he was a stronger mark, but again he's so strong once it hits the ground, he can get away with not being as stronger mark as he could be. I happen to think at his best Reiwoldt is just as valuable as Buddy so forget this rose-coloured glass rubbish.

No ones attributing performance to injury, regardless of Franklin's shoulder problems he's still performed unbelievably over time. So Franklin's contested marks can be attributed to Richards, yet Frankln was 7th this year for total contested marks. Was he playing on an injured Richard all year, or was everyone else injured as well.


Weird comment. His flaws as you put it have been discussed ad-nauseum over time. It's never been ignored and sometimes you think it's discussed too often when you compare it to his output over the years.

Getting the picture now, this has nothing to do with Buddy per se but about Rewioldt. Do you ever check your stats by the way, you make a lot of mistakes. Both have kicked over 60 goals in each of the last 3 seasons. On average goals a game for last 3 years Buddy is 3.6, 3.7, 3.6, Reiwoldt's is 3.2, 2.8, 3.6. So if you're going to use goals kicked in a season and Coleman medals as the gauge of an elite forward footballer (which you shouldn't) then your argument is flawed anyway.

And in summary we agree.

Hey, not sure I make a LOT of mistakes, pretty sure most of the very few stats I quote are accurate. When I say Jack's the only player to have kicked over 60 goals in the last three seasons, I mean home and away seasons.

As a richmond supporter, you'd have to forgive me equating "season" with "home and away season".

And if you reckon my argument was flawed, it was perhaps the application of the statistics moreso than the stats themselves. Which is where stats end up being damn lies.

And when it comes to choosing which stats to apply and when, there's a lot of damn lies concerning Franklin. His much touted 522 goals 376 behinds doesn't include the uber hook of his kick, and his propensity to kick out of bounds as much as behinds.

And his flaws may well be documented, but they're often documented, and duly forgotten.
I'm glad you've documented them and are aware of them, but you're not the one I'm forced to listen to during matches with bruce macavaney slobbering all over lance, and with mike sheahan putting him number one in his top fifty.

My issue is not so much with buddy, but with his hype. Most of which he duly deserves, as I've said.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

And when it comes to choosing which stats to apply and when, there's a lot of damn lies concerning Franklin. His much touted 522 goals 376 behinds doesn't include the uber hook of his kick, and his propensity to kick out of bounds as much as behinds.

Overstated, same as it was with Richo. Bad misses are more dramatic and stick in the memory. I don't have the numbers but am confident they would be small.

And his flaws may well be documented, but they're often documented, and duly forgotten.
I'm glad you've documented them and are aware of them, but you're not the one I'm forced to listen to during matches with bruce macavaney slobbering all over lance, and with mike sheahan putting him number one in his top fifty.

My issue is not so much with buddy, but with his hype. Most of which he duly deserves, as I've said.

It's in the eye of the beholder. Fawning over other players annoys me far more, e.g. Lenny Hayes, Judd!, even Ablett. Probably Cotchin too, if I wasn't a Tiger. I guess I consider Franklin a special case that's worthy of the hype, but I see where you're coming from.

 

[Coburgtiger]

Overstated, same as it was with Richo. Bad misses are more dramatic and stick in the memory. I don't have the numbers but am confident they would be small.

It's in the eye of the beholder. Fawning over other players annoys me far more, e.g. Lenny Hayes, Judd!, even Ablett. Probably Cotchin too, if I wasn't a Tiger. I guess I consider Franklin a special case that's worthy of the hype, but I see where you're coming from.

Woah, okay, we do have different views then. I wouldn't think it possible to overrate Ablett. I consider Ablett the special case, and hope cotchin reaches his heights.

Guess people rate different aspects of footballers as more important.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Woah, okay, we do have different views then. I wouldn't think it possible to overrate Ablett. I consider Ablett the special case, and hope cotchin reaches his heights.

Guess people rate different aspects of footballers as more important.

Only thing I have against Ablett is the impression he gives of being focused on personal glory. Reaction at not winning Brownlow, bailing on Geelong when offered a lucrative deal, "one-two's" etc. Maybe it's just coincidence that after he spent less time on the ball and his stats went down, the rest of the team performed better. Champion, but...

 

[Sintiger]

Agree up to a point. A lesser player wouldn't have earned as many shots, and he still kicked the winner in the prelim.

His overall record is 44.28 in finals, which is a better conversion rate than e.g. Carey or Ablett snr.

You are not disagreeing with anything I said LTRTR. I agreed that he is the best forward in the game but it is an undeniable fact that he failed to deliver the killer blow this season when he could have.
He probably will in the future which is why I said ...... this time ;D

 

[Tiny S Tiger]

Absolute gun. Wish we had him...hang on...oh *smile*! :-\

 

[acatman]

Siren goes 5 points behind, Buddy 30 metres in front in a GF. GREAT players kickem em 9 outta 10 times. Buddy would be 50/50. Does he work on his deficiencies ( kicking, no right foot?). Of course i would have him at my club in a heartbeat. Its about kicking the pressure goals in a GF and winnjing it for the team. Carey, Bartel, score/d these goals that won flags for thier respectine teams. Its great getting the ball buddy, and looking exciting, the POINT ( pun unintended) is winning the flag. reckon anyone that thinks he passed that last one to Gunston, cos he was in a better possie has read it wrong, i reckon Buddy didnt trust himself..... and for a player with an ego like that, it says something to me.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Siren goes 5 points behind, Buddy 30 metres in front in a GF. GREAT players kickem em 9 outta 10 times. Buddy would be 50/50.

Reckon Buddy would try a dribble kick, just to challenge himself.

 

[Coburgtiger]

Siren goes 5 points behind, Buddy 30 metres in front in a GF. GREAT players kickem em 9 outta 10 times. Buddy would be 50/50.

Pretty sure he'd be a better than fifty fifty chance, he'd kick most of those.

But as a hawks supporter you'd be nervous.

 

[Cairns3]

To put it another way, then. Leading goalkickers in the past 100 games:

Player Disp Gls 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13
----------------------------------------------------------------
Franklin, Lance 16.9 366 5 9 11 23 21 20 6 3 1 1
Brown, Jonathan 15.1 324 8 10 17 22 20 12 7 2 1 1
Riewoldt, Nick 16.5 256 13 18 19 22 14 9 2 3
Riewoldt, Jack 12.0 250 15 24 16 18 11 7 6 1 1 1
Milne, Stephen 13.7 235 8 27 20 25 12 6 1 1
LeCras, Mark 12.8 234 15 16 28 20 12 6 2 1
Pavlich, Matthew 19.9 234 19 25 13 17 10 9 4 1 2
Roughead, Jarryd 14.1 233 13 22 24 18 13 5 4 1
Johnson, Steve 21.1 208 19 28 21 13 6 5 6 2
Cloke, Travis 14.6 197 19 26 24 16 4 7 4
Betts, Eddie 12.7 191 20 28 23 12 8 7 1 1
Tippett, Kurt 10.4 184 24 31 11 14 14 4 1 1
Goodes, Adam 19.5 181 17 25 30 21 5 1 1
Hawkins, Tom J. 11.9 166 30 26 16 13 9 3 3
Petrie, Drew 14.3 165 32 22 19 14 7 3 1 2
Koschitzke, Justin 10.7 157 25 30 23 12 6 3 1
Porplyzia, Jason 15.3 157 27 28 20 16 5 3 1
Ebert, Brett 11.7 156 26 28 24 14 5 3
Giansiracusa, Daniel 19.0 155 21 33 24 16 4 2
Schulz, Jay 10.2 153 27 29 26 10 4 1 3

Note that Franklin has the least 0's, 1's and 2's and the most 4's and 5's. Only around 30 players have ever had 5 or less goalless games in a streak of 100 - most in more freewheeling eras than the 2000's. And the last 100 isn't Franklin's best sequence.

I could count on one hand the number of other clubs' players I'd go out of my way to watch, and Franklin's one of them.

I suspect that Jack would compare more favourably of just the last three seasons; since he has been our number 1 go-to scorer.

Are you able to do those stats for just the last three seasons? Buddy has been Hawthorn's no 1 scorer for the whole period covered by the last 100 games. Jack was not our number 1 scoring option for all of the last 100 games. Even when playing on the wing; Richo was our go-to goal kicker whenever he drifted forward - and that covers some of the last 100 games.

Does the picture look the same; or slightly different if you just look at the last 3 seasons?

 

[GoodOne]

Siren goes 5 points behind, Buddy 30 metres in front in a GF. GREAT players kickem em 9 outta 10 times. Buddy would be 50/50. Does he work on his deficiencies ( kicking, no right foot?). Of course i would have him at my club in a heartbeat. Its about kicking the pressure goals in a GF and winnjing it for the team. Carey, Bartel, score/d these goals that won flags for thier respectine teams. Its great getting the ball buddy, and looking exciting, the POINT ( pun unintended) is winning the flag. reckon anyone that thinks he passed that last one to Gunston, cos he was in a better possie has read it wrong, i reckon Buddy didnt trust himself..... and for a player with an ego like that, it says something to me.

What a furphy. So the judge of a great player depends on one kick after the siren in a grand final. Give me a break. If it wasn't for Buddy Hawthorn would have been finished well before the final quarter started let alone the end. Great players stand up when needed most and Buddy did that in the GF. Yes he missed a goal that would have probably sealed it, but he's the one that got them there in the first place.

 

[Coburgtiger]

What a furphy. So the judge of a great player depends on one kick after the siren in a grand final. Give me a break. If it wasn't for Buddy Hawthorn would have been finished well before the final quarter started let alone the end. Great players stand up when needed most and Buddy did that in the GF. Yes he missed a goal that would have probably sealed it, but he's the one that got them there in the first place.

Not sure you can say that.

If franklin hadn't been there, they would have found other options, as they did in the six weeks he missed. He's not vital to their success. It was evident, in the first quarter when cyril ran down the wing, and, under no pressure of his own, handballed to franklin to have the shot, who missed. Rioli would otherwise have had the shot himself, or found a different easy target.

It wasn't franklin that got them into a winning position, it was their structures and midfield.

 

[GoodOne]

Not sure you can say that.

If franklin hadn't been there, they would have found other options, as they did in the six weeks he missed. He's not vital to their success. It was evident, in the first quarter when cyril ran down the wing, and, under no pressure of his own, handballed to franklin to have the shot, who missed. Rioli would otherwise have had the shot himself, or found a different easy target.

It wasn't franklin that got them into a winning position, it was their structures and midfield.

Right I see, thanks for clearing it up.

 

[Coburgtiger]

Right I see, thanks for clearing it up.

Just sayin.
Can't attribute their winning position to franklin, just as you can't attribute the loss to him.
He had the ball given to him a lot, and he kicked three goals. Not bad, not a lot of players kick three in a granny.
Didn't play his best game, and some of his flaws came to the fore, hooking it horribly from in front, inside fifty, as did some of his freakish ability, bombing one step goals from sixty metres on an angle.
There's just a crazy amount of hype about the guy, people blinded by his brilliance, and who get kicks out of hating on him.

 

[nqtiger]

Dud. Delist

 

[GoodOne]

Just sayin.
Can't attribute their winning position to franklin, just as you can't attribute the loss to him.
He had the ball given to him a lot, and he kicked three goals. Not bad, not a lot of players kick three in a granny.
Didn't play his best game, and some of his flaws came to the fore, hooking it horribly from in front, inside fifty, as did some of his freakish ability, bombing one step goals from sixty metres on an angle.
There's just a crazy amount of hype about the guy, people blinded by his brilliance, and who get kicks out of hating on him.

3 goals 4, 24 possessions in a grand final, I'd take that from Reiwoldt if we were in a granny. Wanna talk hype, Rioli would be a better grand final discussion, he was terrible.