Franklin

[Coburgtiger]

If Jack kicked three goals four in a granny there'd be rioting in the street, richmond supporters would want blood. Bunch of people nearly topped themselves when he kicked 3-5 against essendon, and that was a dead rubber.

But, three goals is three goals, can't take that away from him.

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

3 goals 4, 24 possessions in a grand final, I'd take that from Reiwoldt if we were in a granny. Wanna talk hype, Rioli would be a better grand final discussion, he was terrible.

Agree. Surprised more hasn't been made of the All Australian half forward's failure to fire a shot in the big one.

 

[GoodOne]

If Jack kicked three goals four in a granny there'd be rioting in the street, richmond supporters would want blood. Bunch of people nearly topped themselves when he kicked 3-5 against essendon, and that was a dead rubber.

No I don't think so. I think supporters would be saying wow, 24 possessions, you played out of your skin because your greatest return was 20 possessions this year and you've never had 24 before. 4 contested possessions well you've only managed that twice this season, and those pressure goals you kicked from outside 50 yo get us back into the game were tremendous. It's true that the higher you raise the bar, the more that is expected.

Anyhow enough on Buddy, he's a great of the game, we could have had him, we didn't so stuff him....

 

[linuscambridge]

He is an amazing player, he could be better. Most good players work on perfecting their technique of their chosen skill. The reason? Good technique is far less likely to break down under pressure. Perhaps Buddy could be the best ever if he actually decided to work on his set shot routine. On the run however, he shouldn't change a thing. Freak.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

I suspect that Jack would compare more favourably of just the last three seasons; since he has been our number 1 go-to scorer.

Are you able to do those stats for just the last three seasons? Buddy has been Hawthorn's no 1 scorer for the whole period covered by the last 100 games. Jack was not our number 1 scoring option for all of the last 100 games. Even when playing on the wing; Richo was our go-to goal kicker whenever he drifted forward - and that covers some of the last 100 games.

Does the picture look the same; or slightly different if you just look at the last 3 seasons?

Player Ma Disp Gls 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Franklin, Lance 59 18.2 215 3 4 6 17 11 13 3 1 1
Riewoldt, Jack 66 12.0 205 4 11 13 13 11 6 5 1 1 1
Milne, Stephen 70 13.7 169 4 18 16 18 8 5 1
Cloke, Travis 74 14.7 166 10 17 19 15 3 6 4
Pavlich, Matthew 66 19.8 151 15 15 7 12 7 5 3 1 1
Betts, Eddie 69 13.1 140 14 18 16 6 7 6 1 1
Podsiadly, James 60 12.5 136 10 16 10 11 2 9 1 1
Hall, Barry 39 10.8 135 4 3 6 5 7 8 5 1
Johnson, Steve 66 21.0 132 15 18 14 7 3 3 4 2
Walker, Taylor 50 12.6 130 6 9 9 7 14 4 1
Brown, Jonathan 46 14.4 122 5 7 10 9 9 5 1
Riewoldt, Nick 56 15.9 122 12 9 13 11 7 1 3
Goodes, Adam 67 19.7 122 9 18 21 15 3 1
Kennedy, Josh J. 54 11.2 118 6 18 10 11 6 1 1 1
Tippett, Kurt 61 11.0 116 15 17 4 13 9 2 1
Garlett, Jeff 66 12.2 116 12 18 18 13 3 1 1
Green, Brad 56 15.9 111 11 12 15 8 5 5
LeCras, Mark 43 15.0 110 4 8 13 8 5 4 1
Roughead, Jarryd 57 15.0 110 11 14 14 9 6 1 2
Hawkins, Tom J. 58 12.5 110 15 15 9 7 7 2 3
Giansiracusa, Daniel 62 17.9 108 7 25 14 11 3 2
Petrie, Drew 46 13.3 106 10 7 10 8 5 3 1 2
Schulz, Jay 47 10.6 106 4 13 15 7 4 1 3

 

[Brodders17]

Player Ma Disp Gls 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Schulz, Jay 47 10.6 106 4 13 15 7 4 1 3

surprised he is so low on this list.

 

[SAF]

Some good robust debate on this thread - makes for good reading.

As someone who has seen Hart, Carey, Brereton, Ablett senior, Lockett and Dunstall all play in their prime, there is no doubt in my mind that Buddy has more flaws and does not consistently deliver at the same level as these all time greats. Hart and Carey are the 2 best key forward to ever play the game in my opinion, both dominated games nearly every week & they were the main reason their teams won flags.

It is a reasonable argument that Buddy's best moments are more spectacular & breathtaking than the others but his worst is also more common & more costly to his team than anything the others ever did. His influence on the game is also not as great as what Hart & Carey were able to do, they were both captains, leaders who stepped up when it really mattered & played outstanding games in GFs.

Royce Hart would have smashed them in this year's GF if he had the number of opportunities that Buddy did, there is no way he would have let his team lose. Hart often produced his best footy when it was most needed and on the big stage, he was one of the main reasons we had a golden era in the late 60s & early 70s.

Someone mentioned how Buddy's goals running along the boundary against Ess were the best thing they have seen live at the ground. The mighty Royce Hart would have done the smart thing and run in board to make it an easier shot then banged it in from a easy angle, not as spectacular but a lot smarter and higher percentage than running around the boundary and then shooting from the tightest possible angle when there was no need for it.

I can think of so many better pieces of play i have seen live by other champions there are too many to count, Hart taking his famous contested mark in the 67 GF which virtually won us the game, Ablett senior's effort to almost single handedly win the 89 GF, Brereton's contested mark & goal only moments after nearly being knocked out in the same game, Carey's 96 season where he dominated nearly every week (particularly in the finals & on GF day), etc.

I guess it all depends on your opinion of what makes a great player and how good your memory is. I highly value players who consistently produce their best when it really counts & regularly pull their team over the line. I just don't see Buddy do this, he could have done this in the GF this year and instead he missed many goals that the best of the best should have kicked. In my opinion he is the reason that Hawthorn lost - the opposite is true of Hart & Carey they won GFs for their teams.

 

[Sintiger]

Agree. Surprised more hasn't been made of the All Australian half forward's failure to fire a shot in the big one.

true. I also noticed that the AA first ruck didn't finish in the top 10 in the Eagles B&F

 

[RICHO_12]

true. I also noticed that the AA first ruck didn't finish in the top 10 in the Eagles B&F

Disgraceful Maric or Jacobs didn't get that gig

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Someone mentioned how Buddy's goals running along the boundary against Ess were the best thing they have seen live at the ground. The mighty Royce Hart would have done the smart thing and run in board to make it an easier shot then banged it in from a easy angle, not as spectacular but a lot smarter and higher percentage than running around the boundary and then shooting from the tightest possible angle when there was no need for it.

It wasn't like Jetta's goal, there were players inboard. Doubt they would've let him make a 70m beeline for the goals.

[youtube=560,315]Q_azYB2G3LE[/youtube]

[youtube=560,315]RUcnjGKOw80[/youtube]

Minutes apart. It was unbelievable.

 

[cmarkidis]

Some good robust debate on this thread - makes for good reading.

As someone who has seen Hart, Carey, Brereton, Ablett senior, Lockett and Dunstall all play in their prime, there is no doubt in my mind that Buddy has more flaws and does not consistently deliver at the same level as these all time greats. Hart and Carey are the 2 best key forward to ever play the game in my opinion, both dominated games nearly every week & they were the main reason their teams won flags.

It is a reasonable argument that Buddy's best moments are more spectacular & breathtaking than the others but his worst is also more common & more costly to his team than anything the others ever did. His influence on the game is also not as great as what Hart & Carey were able to do, they were both captains, leaders who stepped up when it really mattered & played outstanding games in GFs.

Royce Hart would have smashed them in this year's GF if he had the number of opportunities that Buddy did, there is no way he would have let his team lose. Hart often produced his best footy when it was most needed and on the big stage, he was one of the main reasons we had a golden era in the late 60s & early 70s.

Someone mentioned how Buddy's goals running along the boundary against Ess were the best thing they have seen live at the ground. The mighty Royce Hart would have done the smart thing and run in board to make it an easier shot then banged it in from a easy angle, not as spectacular but a lot smarter and higher percentage than running around the boundary and then shooting from the tightest possible angle when there was no need for it.

I can think of so many better pieces of play i have seen live by other champions there are too many to count, Hart taking his famous contested mark in the 67 GF which virtually won us the game, Ablett senior's effort to almost single handedly win the 89 GF, Brereton's contested mark & goal only moments after nearly being knocked out in the same game, Carey's 96 season where he dominated nearly every week (particularly in the finals & on GF day), etc.

I guess it all depends on your opinion of what makes a great player and how good your memory is. I highly value players who consistently produce their best when it really counts & regularly pull their team over the line. I just don't see Buddy do this, he could have done this in the GF this year and instead he missed many goals that the best of the best should have kicked. In my opinion he is the reason that Hawthorn lost - the opposite is true of Hart & Carey they won GFs for their teams.

Excellent summary. Agree with everything mentioned. I think people are fooled by Buddy's massive presence on the ground; but, alas, for all that, he doesn't hurt teams.

 

[GoodOne]

Player Ma Disp Gls 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Franklin, Lance 59 18.2 215 3 4 6 17 11 13 3 1 1
Riewoldt, Jack 66 12.0 205 4 11 13 13 11 6 5 1 1 1
Milne, Stephen 70 13.7 169 4 18 16 18 8 5 1
Cloke, Travis 74 14.7 166 10 17 19 15 3 6 4
Pavlich, Matthew 66 19.8 151 15 15 7 12 7 5 3 1 1
Betts, Eddie 69 13.1 140 14 18 16 6 7 6 1 1
Podsiadly, James 60 12.5 136 10 16 10 11 2 9 1 1
Hall, Barry 39 10.8 135 4 3 6 5 7 8 5 1
Johnson, Steve 66 21.0 132 15 18 14 7 3 3 4 2
Walker, Taylor 50 12.6 130 6 9 9 7 14 4 1
Brown, Jonathan 46 14.4 122 5 7 10 9 9 5 1
Riewoldt, Nick 56 15.9 122 12 9 13 11 7 1 3
Goodes, Adam 67 19.7 122 9 18 21 15 3 1
Kennedy, Josh J. 54 11.2 118 6 18 10 11 6 1 1 1
Tippett, Kurt 61 11.0 116 15 17 4 13 9 2 1
Garlett, Jeff 66 12.2 116 12 18 18 13 3 1 1
Green, Brad 56 15.9 111 11 12 15 8 5 5
LeCras, Mark 43 15.0 110 4 8 13 8 5 4 1
Roughead, Jarryd 57 15.0 110 11 14 14 9 6 1 2
Hawkins, Tom J. 58 12.5 110 15 15 9 7 7 2 3
Giansiracusa, Daniel 62 17.9 108 7 25 14 11 3 2
Petrie, Drew 46 13.3 106 10 7 10 8 5 3 1 2
Schulz, Jay 47 10.6 106 4 13 15 7 4 1 3

Looking at the talls only, I think i becomes clear by disposal who the cream are. Franklin, Pavlich, Goodes are all the types of players who aren't strictly full forwards but are very classy at ground level too. I find it hard to believe that anyone can argue Franklin is not the best forward in the league.

 

[Cairns3]

Looking at the talls only, I think i becomes clear by disposal who the cream are. Franklin, Pavlich, Goodes are all the types of players who aren't strictly full forwards but are very classy at ground level too. I find it hard to believe that anyone can argue Franklin is not the best forward in the league.

Franklin, Lance 59 18.2 215
Riewoldt, Jack 66 12.0 205

So in the last 3 years franklin kicked an average of 3.26 goals per game while Jack kicked 3.11 goals per game. As the main goal kickers for their teams; there is not much between them when you look at the last three seasons.

Buddy averaged 4.1 clangers per game in 2012 (3rd worst in the AFL). Jack was not in the top 100 for clangers for footy wire so, although I can tell that he had far fewer clangers than Buddy; I don't know what his average is.

Of course; their are other stats that Buddy comes out on top of Jack (marks for one). however; It does look like peoples views that Buddy's clangers detract from his value to his team.

Like many; I wish we had both in our team; but I don't think that either can yet be classified as amongst the best ever - though both obviously deserve to be rated highly.

As a tiger fan; i hope Jack does continue to reacjh new heights - and I don't mind if Buddy keeps detracting from his game with an average of 4 clangers per game.

 

[Jumping Jack]

Firstly, I am not going to argue that Jack is better than Buddy.
But I would like to point out that goals wise they are on par with each other over the last few seasons, which as a forward is what you should be rated on. I don't buy into this possession game, by saying because Buddy gets more of the ball that makes him better over all, or better when the ball is on the game.
Personally I would take my forward kicking 5-6 goals from 10-15 possessions, than touching the footy 24 times for a return of 3 majors.

 

[SfB_AkA._DeLiCiOuS]

I'd take Buddy over Jack in a heartbeat.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

So in the last 3 years franklin kicked an average of 3.26 goals per game while Jack kicked 3.11 goals per game. As the main goal kickers for their teams; there is not much between them when you look at the last three seasons.

Tackles and goal assists are things we like to recite to Jack's critics, yet Franklin's ahead in both over the last three years. Also ahead on contested possessions and one-percenters. Even contested marks are only 2.03 to 1.86 in Jack's favour.

 

[Disco08]

Jack's advantage comes in the fact he's 2 years younger and really only played 1 season in his prime.

 

[Mr Brightside]

Freak an makes the game as exciting as ever , reckon his a bit like watching Richo in Hawks jumper without the great pack marks

 

[TigerMasochist]

Tackles and goal assists are things we like to recite to Jack's critics, yet Franklin's ahead in both over the last three years. Also ahead on contested possessions and one-percenters. Even contested marks are only 2.03 to 1.86 in Jack's favour.

Flanklins been playing in a far better side than Jaaack over the years, so his numbers should be better. But we idolised the Richoman with all his flaws, 17 other teams in the comp and 17 other teams would be more than happy to suffer Buddy's dodgy goal kicking. The bloke's a gun.

 

[SAF]

It wasn't like Jetta's goal, there were players inboard. Doubt they would've let him make a 70m beeline for the goals.

Minutes apart. It was unbelievable.

I agree they were great goals but I've seen better.