Franklin

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Jack would have just as many scoring shots in his last hundred games if he'd played for the Hawks.
Getting scoring shots is nowhere near as impressive as getting goals.
Jack may even have as many scoring shots playing for richmond if he went for goal from every conceivable angle inside sixty metres.

To put it another way, then. Leading goalkickers in the past 100 games:

Player Disp Gls 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13
----------------------------------------------------------------
Franklin, Lance 16.9 366 5 9 11 23 21 20 6 3 1 1
Brown, Jonathan 15.1 324 8 10 17 22 20 12 7 2 1 1
Riewoldt, Nick 16.5 256 13 18 19 22 14 9 2 3
Riewoldt, Jack 12.0 250 15 24 16 18 11 7 6 1 1 1
Milne, Stephen 13.7 235 8 27 20 25 12 6 1 1
LeCras, Mark 12.8 234 15 16 28 20 12 6 2 1
Pavlich, Matthew 19.9 234 19 25 13 17 10 9 4 1 2
Roughead, Jarryd 14.1 233 13 22 24 18 13 5 4 1
Johnson, Steve 21.1 208 19 28 21 13 6 5 6 2
Cloke, Travis 14.6 197 19 26 24 16 4 7 4
Betts, Eddie 12.7 191 20 28 23 12 8 7 1 1
Tippett, Kurt 10.4 184 24 31 11 14 14 4 1 1
Goodes, Adam 19.5 181 17 25 30 21 5 1 1
Hawkins, Tom J. 11.9 166 30 26 16 13 9 3 3
Petrie, Drew 14.3 165 32 22 19 14 7 3 1 2
Koschitzke, Justin 10.7 157 25 30 23 12 6 3 1
Porplyzia, Jason 15.3 157 27 28 20 16 5 3 1
Ebert, Brett 11.7 156 26 28 24 14 5 3
Giansiracusa, Daniel 19.0 155 21 33 24 16 4 2
Schulz, Jay 10.2 153 27 29 26 10 4 1 3

Note that Franklin has the least 0's, 1's and 2's and the most 4's and 5's. Only around 30 players have ever had 5 or less goalless games in a streak of 100 - most in more freewheeling eras than the 2000's. And the last 100 isn't Franklin's best sequence.

I could count on one hand the number of other clubs' players I'd go out of my way to watch, and Franklin's one of them.

 

[TheCan]

You can not be spraying shots out of bounds on the full from forty metres out in grand finals.
The sense of relief a player feels at seeing their opponent hook a kick that far out cannot be understated. You go from full pressure, to none.
That mental edge is paramount in grand finals.
It's criminal that some people will call Franklin the best player in the league, when he can't even do the absolute most fundamental part of football, i.e. run and kick in a straight line.

I concur, I had to listen to some bums, using franklins name in the same sentence with mathews Carey, lockett, ablett, dunstall, capt blood.

I think buddy is outright gun, but i refuse to label or even entertain the motion he is the biggest and best forward ever at this stage.

 

[SAF]

A lot of truth re the Richo comparison. I don't think Franklin's stinkers are as bad as early Richo's, though.

It is a lot easier not to have a stinker when you have quality all around you & delivering the ball to you. Franklin would generally get 1 or 2 easy goals per game due to the good work of his team mates. I can hardly remember Richo getting an easy goal, the ball was kicked at his feet or over his head for his whole career plus Richo had to present further up the ground then put in 2nd / 3rd efforts because there was on one else helping him. Richo was one of the hardest working players for his size you'll ever see (as evidenced by his year on the wing at 34 & coming 2nd in the Brownlow), he just got less return for his effort because he played in one of the most terrible teams to ever grace the MCG.

You can pull out as many stats as you want but nothing will convince me that Buddy is anywhere near the great key forwards I have watched like Hart and Carey.

 

[jimbob]

To put it another way, then. Leading goalkickers in the past 100 games:

Player Disp Gls 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13
----------------------------------------------------------------
Franklin, Lance 16.9 366 5 9 11 23 21 20 6 3 1 1
Brown, Jonathan 15.1 324 8 10 17 22 20 12 7 2 1 1
Riewoldt, Nick 16.5 256 13 18 19 22 14 9 2 3
Riewoldt, Jack 12.0 250 15 24 16 18 11 7 6 1 1 1
Milne, Stephen 13.7 235 8 27 20 25 12 6 1 1
LeCras, Mark 12.8 234 15 16 28 20 12 6 2 1
Pavlich, Matthew 19.9 234 19 25 13 17 10 9 4 1 2
Roughead, Jarryd 14.1 233 13 22 24 18 13 5 4 1
Johnson, Steve 21.1 208 19 28 21 13 6 5 6 2
Cloke, Travis 14.6 197 19 26 24 16 4 7 4
Betts, Eddie 12.7 191 20 28 23 12 8 7 1 1
Tippett, Kurt 10.4 184 24 31 11 14 14 4 1 1
Goodes, Adam 19.5 181 17 25 30 21 5 1 1
Hawkins, Tom J. 11.9 166 30 26 16 13 9 3 3
Petrie, Drew 14.3 165 32 22 19 14 7 3 1 2
Koschitzke, Justin 10.7 157 25 30 23 12 6 3 1
Porplyzia, Jason 15.3 157 27 28 20 16 5 3 1
Ebert, Brett 11.7 156 26 28 24 14 5 3
Giansiracusa, Daniel 19.0 155 21 33 24 16 4 2
Schulz, Jay 10.2 153 27 29 26 10 4 1 3

Note that Franklin has the least 0's, 1's and 2's and the most 4's and 5's. Only around 30 players have ever had 5 or less goalless games in a streak of 100 - most in more freewheeling eras than the 2000's. And the last 100 isn't Franklin's best sequence.

I could count on one hand the number of other clubs' players I'd go out of my way to watch, and Franklin's one of them.

Where do you get this info from ? Damn....you're good.........

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

It is a lot easier not to have a stinker when you have quality all around you & delivering the ball to you. Franklin would generally get 1 or 2 easy goals per game due to the good work of his team mates. I can hardly remember Richo getting an easy goal, the ball was kicked at his feet or over his head for his whole career plus Richo had to present further up the ground then put in 2nd / 3rd efforts because there was on one else helping him. Richo was one of the hardest working players for his size you'll ever see (as evidenced by his year on the wing at 34 & coming 2nd in the Brownlow), he just got less return for his effort because he played in one of the most terrible teams to ever grace the MCG.

You can pull out as many stats as you want but nothing will convince me that Buddy is anywhere near the great key forwards I have watched like Hart and Carey.

I didn't see Hart in his prime and am not going to try to make a comparison with the game being so different now. Even when Richo and Carey were in their prime, forwards had far less accountability and were better able to indulge their attacking instincts, e.g. Franklin 2.62 tackles per game, Carey 1.17, Richo 0.48. Franklin's also near the top of the comp this year for goal assists.

Yes Franklin benefits from being in a good side, but it's not a criticism that is ever levelled at Coleman, Coventry, Titus or Dunstall who were surrounded by more dominant teams, statistically.

Like Richo, Franklin polarises people, but the fact that he ranks 7th for goals kicked by by age says we're seeing one of the all-time greats. I was there the night he sank Essendon with those freak goals, and it was one of the greatest things I've witnessed in live sport. (It was made even better by being there with Bomber supporters.) In any case, it's not a debate that can ever be settled definitively.

 

[tigerfan1961]

Was at both the Prelim Final and the Grand Final and watched Franklin closely in both. He works so hard but his finishing is almost worse than anything Richo dished up.

I was told by a Hawks fanatic after the GF that "you would swap Riewoldt for Franklin in a heartbeat". I said there was no way on this planet I would do that as at least Jack does what he is paid to do, put the bloody ball through the big sticks.

And I stand by that. Franklin helped get the Hawks back in the game Saturday but in the wash-up, he cost them the game IMO. He is just such a poor finisher. Jack would have nailed all, if not most, of the chances Buddy had.

 

[GoodOne]

Where do you get this info from ? Damn....you're good.........

If he tells you he'll have to kill you

 

[Disco08]

In any case, it's not a debate that can ever be settled definitively.

I think you've done that quite convincingly.

 

[GoodOne]

It's criminal that some people will call Franklin the best player in the league, when he can't even do the absolute most fundamental part of football, i.e. run and kick in a straight line.

Franklin is a freak. Best player in the league? Arguable. But definitely the best forward in the league.

 

[SfB_AkA._DeLiCiOuS]

But definitely the best forward in the league.

Easily, It's Buddy.....then daylight.

 

[Tenacious]

franklin lost the GF for the hawks in IMO, closely followed by roughhead......2004 draft duds!!!

How they must have wanted Tambling out there instead!

 

[Sintiger]

Easily, It's Buddy.....then daylight.

That's true but it is also true that he could have won the GF for the Hawks and he didn't. He missed key shots on goal on both the prelim and the Grannie.

I would have him in our side in a heartbeat but he didn't deliver when it counted ... this time.

 

[Tigers of Old]

In spite of his set shot kicking flaws, no doubt Franklin is on his way to being an all time great.
Generates a ridiculous amount of scoring opportunities and we've never seen a player with anything like his athleticism or mobility as a key forward.
Anyone who can't see that holds nothing but a grudge that we didn't draft him.

 

[tigergollywog]

We had a calcutta for the GF and my 8 year old paid $10 of his hard earned for Buddy. Player with the most Dream Team points took the pool. My 8Yo pocketed $264. Buddy could have been Norm Smith easy if hawks won. Most dangerous player in the game IMO.

 

[cmarkidis]

In spite of his set shot kicking flaws, no doubt Franklin is on his way to being an all time great.
Generates a ridiculous amount of scoring opportunities and we've never seen a player with anything like his athleticism or mobility as a key forward.
Anyone who can't see that holds nothing but a grudge that we didn't draft him.

I think people suffer from the here and now phenomenon.

It does still stick in my craw that we didn't draft him, yes; but, I believe had we drafted buddy we would not have won a flag and we would've finished too high to have picked up Cotchin and Martin. I think our planned rise up the ladder has only been delayed rather than extinguished by not getting buddy.

Over the last decade I would take James Hird, Matthew Lloyd, Alistair Lynch, Barry Hall, and even Warren Tredrea over buddy as more effective like players (and I haven't even mentioned Richo). How many of these guys miss to put their team 3 goals up in the last quarter of a GF? For all his presence, buddy does not hurt teams like he should, that's why imo he will never be one of the all time greats.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

That's true but it is also true that he could have won the GF for the Hawks and he didn't. He missed key shots on goal on both the prelim and the Grannie.

I would have him in our side in a heartbeat but he didn't deliver when it counted ... this time.

Agree up to a point. A lesser player wouldn't have earned as many shots, and he still kicked the winner in the prelim.

His overall record is 44.28 in finals, which is a better conversion rate than e.g. Carey or Ablett snr.

 

[GoodOne]

Over the last decade I would take James Hird, Matthew Lloyd, Alistair Lynch, Barry Hall, and even Warren Tredrea over buddy as more effective like players (and I haven't even mentioned Richo). How many of these guys miss to put their team 3 goals up in the last quarter of a GF? For all his presence, buddy does not hurt teams like he should, that's why imo he will never be one of the all time greats.

24 possessions, 8 marks, 4 contested marks, 7 inside 50s, 3 goals. Last 10 games, 13 goals, 4, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3. Yep he is terribly ineffective is Franklin. Franklin is unique. None of Lloyd, Lynch or Hall had the ability to kick goals and make opportunities out of nothing like Franklin can.

 

[Coburgtiger]

24 possessions, 8 marks, 4 contested marks, 7 inside 50s, 3 goals. Last 10 games, 13 goals, 4, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3. Yep he is terribly ineffective is Franklin. Franklin is unique. None of Lloyd, Lynch or Hall had the ability to kick goals and make opportunities out of nothing like Franklin can.

He does make goals out of nothing, and is a freak for being able to do it. Unfortunately, he also turns certain goals back into nothing.

If he ever develops his legitimate football ability (I.e. marking overhead and kicking straight.... The sort of thing real footballers like Cotchy and Jack do in their sleep) into something even approximating the top 30% in the league, he would then warrant a tag as the best player in the league, and deserve the praise that's spewed all over him.

Unfortunately he has some gaping holes in his skillset. I look at cothin, or Ablett, or the like, and see players with NO deficiencies in their game. Those are the players deserving of Best in the Leauge. Frankling has several GLARING deficiencies, that can cost his side games. There's no doubt he's an amazing athlete, and an exceptionally damaging player, but he has some work to do to be considered the best.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Unfortunately he has some gaping holes in his skillset. I look at cothin, or Ablett, or the like, and see players with NO deficiencies in their game. Those are the players deserving of Best in the Leauge. Frankling has several GLARING deficiencies, that can cost his side games. There's no doubt he's an amazing athlete, and an exceptionally damaging player, but he has some work to do to be considered the best.

You say deficient, I say unconventional. At any point in time there are at least a handful of elite midfielders, but special forwards don't grow on trees. Players like Franklin, who break the mould and transcend the increasingly mundane nature of the game, are worth their weight in gold.

Not sure anyone here has claimed he's the best player in the comp. And FWIW,

Ablett 306.240 @ 56%, 164 assists @ 0.71
Cotchin 55.47 @ 54%, 43 assists @ 0.50
Franklin 520.385 @ 57%, 99 assists @ 0.61

 

[GoodOne]

Unfortunately he has some gaping holes in his skillset..... Frankling has several GLARING deficiencies, that can cost his side games.

What baloney. Franklin wins games for his side that they would lose without him. Has one deficiency and that's his kicking style, but seems to cover that deficiency quite well, he did afterall kick 100+ goals in a season. The other is his marking, we know he has had shoulder problems, but in the grand final he had 4 contested marks, more than any other, so glaring deficiency I think not.

I don't think he's the best player in the league by the way but he's certainly up there with the best.