Economy gets big tick (TheAge) | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Economy gets big tick (TheAge)

willo said:
So how much was actually spent on welfare? No figures? sh!tloads is how much?
No doubting the IMF said there was "fiscal profligacy". How much then was spent on Welfare and how much now? Any idea or did you just read the headline article?

You still haven't answered how we'll be paying for it for generations to come, when the Coalition left money in the bank. It's not as if they emptied the coffers and borrowed exorbitant amounts of money and left a huge debt for Labor to service, is it?

What infrastructure have we had from Labor to justify $300+ billion in spending/borrowing?
Pink batts..pfft the BER $16 billion (some waste but some good), what other infrastructure has been built?

Willo, I approach PRE like the pub, I don't bring reams of sources to back up statements when I get into spirited discussion at the pub, kind of spoils it for me, but I don't crap on about things I know nothing about. It was a very common and accepted analysis that the Howard Government spent far too much on middle class welfare and not enough, or next to nothing, on infrastructure. Its been discussed on here before at length, as far as I'm concerned, and a lot of economic analysts I've read over the years, its not a controversial statement. (Gollywog did post the IMF story link).

As for paying for it for generations to come, that refers to my, and some economic analysists, belief that more should have been spent on building national infrastructure during the hight of the boom. Simple as that. Opportunity cost. The opportunity is lost, the boom is petering out and the money is gone. Howard should have gone into an infrastructure frenzy, instead he didn't even keep pace, tread water, and we fell behind. We'll be trying to play catch up for the period of malaise with less $$$, we are now behind the 8 ball when we should be well in front of it.
 
Giardiasis said:
Anyone willing to discuss my points, or is this another Libs vs ALP cheerleader battle?

I agreed with your points, can't really comment on the third para because it loses me a bit, but seems reasonable on the face of it. Agree with the rest. The election cycle is the source of a lot of problems. I know you don't accept CC but that's a main reason it will be tough to act decisively.
 
mld said:
Without wanting to get into a white-hats black-hats argument, I'd say the major problem with the expansion of middle class welfare under the Howard-Costello government was that the spending was implemented as an ongoing measure, funded by a temporary increase in revenue. This makes it very difficult for future governments to remove such payments that people now feel that they are entitled to, even in the face of a reduction in revenue. It is very easy to increase spending, and very difficult to remove the increase.

Agree or disagree with the Rudd-Swan stimulus measures, the cash hand-outs were not ongoing.

Good post.
 
Giardiasis said:
Democracy is also fundamentally flawed, because groups of people will always band together in order pressure politicians to advantage them over all others.

A lot of camps argue this is as much a strength as it is a weakness, the pluralists in particular. That people band together and organise for measures that benefit the greater good, road safety measures or improved education for example. But a lot of camps have the view, which I support, supports your view, that people who are best organised to lobby have the most resources, and lobby to maintain and increase their resource base
 
willo said:
You still haven't answered how we'll be paying for it for generations to come, when the Coalition left money in the bank. It's not as if they emptied the coffers and borrowed exorbitant amounts of money and left a huge debt for Labor to service, is it?

The Howard Govt used billions from selling assets to reduce the debt ( yep they inherited debt from Labor who in turn had inherited a large part of that debt from the Fraser govt). I could sell my house and have a million dollars in the bank. I'm not sure the money in the bank is the way to go. The figures would look healthy but I wouldn't have a very bright future if I didn't spend. I think we're better to stimulate the economy and avoid going into recession than to brag a healthy bank balance.
 
rosy23 said:
The Howard Govt used billions from selling assets to reduce the debt ( yep they inherited debt from Labor who in turn had inherited a large part of that debt from the Fraser govt).

Telstra, a national company owned by all of us and built up over a hundred years, flogged off and the money blown on subsidies to farmers. Who, shock horror, vote for the coalition. Costello sells off our gold stock when the price is in the basement. Real canny master of foresight.
 
tigersnake said:
Telstra, a national company owned by all of us and built up over a hundred years, flogged off

45 billion there alone.

This is a list of assets sold under the Howard Govt.

25 Jun 2012
More Facts Behind the Howard Government’s Debt Elimination

Australia’s net Government debt was $96 billion in June 1996. By June 2007, Australia had net financial assets (negative debt) of $29 billion. The Howard Government and the current Liberal Party point to this turn in the finances of the Government with pride and say it is a sign of good economic management.

To be sure, this is a significant turnaround but there are some interesting facts behind the issue of Government debt in the past 30 or so years.

The first point to note is that the $96 billion of debt inherited by the Howard Government from the Labor Party in 1996 comprised around $39.9 billion of debt accumulated by the Fraser Government under the Treasury-ship of Mr Howard and left to the Hawke Government in 1983! See Table 3 of Budget Paper 10 for more details.

As I discussed a while back, http://alturl.com/4o973 , when the Coalition talks of the $96 billion of Labor debt that it inherited, recall that just under half of it was in fact Liberal Party debt that was a hangover from the Fraser era.

That slightly embarrassing issue aside, let’s look at how else the Howard Government “got rid” of that debt.

Asset sales loom large in that discussion. The list of government assets sold by the Howard government is here: http://alturl.com/bjhqk . This table shows the asset, the time of sale and the price.

To get an accurate indication of the true dollar impact on debt of those asset sales, I have converted them into June 2007 dollar terms. Take the sale of DASFLEET, for example, which was sold for $408 million in July 1997. In June 2007 terms, this was worth $536.8 million. Or perhaps the first tranche of Telstra is interesting. Sold for $17.2 billion in November 1997, that converts to $22.6 billion in June 2007 terms.

The value of all asset sales under the Howard Government totalled a very hefty $71.8 billion in June 2007 dollar terms. This means that around three-quarters of the pay-down of the $96 billion of government debt was simply from selling assets to the private sector. Nothing more, nothing less.

To summarise the above facts:

The $96 billion “Labor debt” inherited by the Howard Government in 1996 comprised $39.9 billion of Fraser Government debt that carried through the Hawke/Keating period meaning that the true level of Labor debt in 1996 was $56 billion. To pay that $56 billion off, the Howard Government sold almost $72 billion of Government assets meaning the move to negative net debt was not really due to any miraculous and bold fiscal settings, but owed everything to a series of asset sales.
 
tigersnake said:
Telstra, a national company owned by all of us and built up over a hundred years, flogged off and the money blown on subsidies to farmers. Who, shock horror, vote for the coalition. Costello sells off our gold stock when the price is in the basement. Real canny master of foresight.

The money blown on subsidies to farmers? Exactly how much do you claim? Are yo suggesting all of it?
How much went to the Future Fund?
 
willo said:
So how much was actually spent on welfare? No figures? sh!tloads is how much?
No doubting the IMF said there was "fiscal profligacy". How much then was spent on Welfare and how much now? Any idea or did you just read the headline article?

You still haven't answered how we'll be paying for it for generations to come, when the Coalition left money in the bank. It's not as if they emptied the coffers and borrowed exorbitant amounts of money and left a huge debt for Labor to service, is it?

What infrastructure have we had from Labor to justify $300+ billion in spending/borrowing?
Pink batts..pfft the BER $16 billion (some waste but some good), what other infrastructure has been built?

tigersnake said:
Willo, I approach PRE like the pub, I don't bring reams of sources to back up statements when I get into spirited discussion at the pub, kind of spoils it for me, but I don't crap on about things I know nothing about. It was a very common and accepted analysis that the Howard Government spent far too much on middle class welfare and not enough, or next to nothing, on infrastructure. Its been discussed on here before at length, as far as I'm concerned, and a lot of economic analysts I've read over the years, its not a controversial statement. (Gollywog did post the IMF story link).

As for paying for it for generations to come, that refers to my, and some economic analysists, belief that more should have been spent on building national infrastructure during the hight of the boom. Simple as that. Opportunity cost. The opportunity is lost, the boom is petering out and the money is gone. Howard should have gone into an infrastructure frenzy, instead he didn't even keep pace, tread water, and we fell behind. We'll be trying to play catch up for the period of malaise with less $$$, we are now behind the 8 ball when we should be well in front of it.

So you can't/don't answer
or supply any facts or figures, I've tried to find some numbers but apart from the IMF's "financial profligacy" there doesn't seem to be any.

For all the talk of "middle class welfare" I'd like to ask you 2 questions Snakey or Rosy or whoever would like to answer.
1. What is your definition of "middle class"
2. What is your definition of "middle class welfare"
in regard to what's been discussed here.
 
This thread has some interesting questions and and answers.
But none as interesting, or funny, as Knighters Revenge quoting the CIA table to prove his "point" (a few pages ago). Pure Gold Knighter and worthy of a PRE quote of the year and it's only the 3rd week of January.

On another point:

The Coalition aren't going to be elected if their policies are aimed at eliminating the debt (hell even reducing it) given the decrease in government revenues, because people won't accept tax increases or spending cuts. Individuals in the Coalition might not be comfortable with the current level of government debt, but the alternative would have them sitting on the wrong side of Parliament

The Howard Government DID raise taxes as well as selling assets to increase revenue and eliminate debt.
But the tax increases which BTW were the largest in history at that time, were achieved by PAYG salary earners moving from one tax bracket into the next higher tax bracket - called bracket creep. They didn't have to announce tax increases, because they were already increasing without too many people noticing. This happened because the economy was strong and growing.
This doesn't happen with company tax because it's a flat rate.
The GFC has stalled the non mining sectors economy, with the result the Gillard Government doesn't have the same level of benefit from bracket creep. It still exists but not at the same level as during the Hawke/Howard eras. Company tax outside the mining sector has also slowed as the growth (and tax payable) has flat lined. For example, in the 2007/8 year, my business paid $600,000 in company tax. In the 2012 year it will be less than half that amount. In this period and out of necessity I've had to restrict employees salaries to CPI increases, which also impacts government PAYG revenues. Multiply this by a million businesses and there you have the problem in a nutshell.

So to sum up, the national debt will be eventually be paid off, but only when (1) the non mining economy regains strength and PAYG bracket creep increases revenue, (2) company's pay more tax because they have increased profitability and (3) government (ALP or Liberal) reduces expenditure increases to less than total revenue thus creating surpluses and paying off debt.

The challenge for the current and future governments is to create a growing economy which is not reliant on the mining sector, because this is where the revenue and jobs will come from.


Like Willo, I'm concerned about our level of debt, but I can see how it will be paid off. But it will only happen when the non mining sectors are restored to good health.
 
willo said:
So you can't/don't answer
or supply any facts or figures, I've tried to find some numbers but apart from the IMF's "financial profligacy" there doesn't seem to be any.

For all the talk of "middle class welfare" I'd like to ask you 2 questions Snakey or Rosy or whoever would like to answer.
1. What is your definition of "middle class"
2. What is your definition of "middle class welfare"
in regard to what's been discussed here.

I can answer Willo, and while I'd like to produce caches of snappy links, I couldn't be bothered. But while I enjoy a debate on PRE, I don't really enjoy doing research. Too much like hard work

The Telstra money given to farmers was a chunk of one of the sales which was promised to "environmental spending' which was promised to get the sale through. It was given to farmers via small grants under various schemes, Landcare, Int Catchment Mgt, basically fixing and improving farmland. Lot blown on admin via small grants and assessment panels. It was a couple of bill from memory. No decent environmental outcomes. Brilliant sleight of hand. Gotta give it to him.

Middle class welfare, I define it giving money to people who don't need it. Private Healthcare subsidies (budgeted at $1.5 bill a year blew out to double that first year), Homeowners grants (non means tested, people were collecting $10K for $1 mill houses, baby bonus, Huge increased funding to private schools, Huge increases in family payments non means tested.

If you can afford private healthcare or a house, you don't need government $$.

Again, to me none of this is controversial. Howard and Costello, did nothing. Stuck money in the bank and gave it out to people who voted for them.
 
It is important to differentiate between tax rates and tax revenue. Howard didn't increase tax rates, his government received increased revenues through the mining boom. So they didnt go to the electorate with income tax increases as policy. The coalition just happened to be in government at the time, they probably would have received more tax revenue had they lowered tax rates.

If you think points 1 and 2 are any chance of happening, then I must ask, are you a supporter of the rba, central banking and inflation? Just to reiterate CPI is not inflation.
 
rosy23 said:
I'm the first to admit I don't understand economics. I've been criticised in the past for suggesting Australia is in good shape compared to the world economy. Plenty shoot our financial situation down in flames. Given the article below do people thing the Govt has done well to keep our rating so high, are they driving us to rack and ruin, or somewhere in between?

Economy gets big tick
January 17, 2013
Peter Martin

Months after Labor's mining tax, its carbon tax and its fourth successive budget deficit, Australia has been given the tick of approval by the world's biggest fund manager.

BlackRock is one of the world's most important buyers of government bonds, investing $US3.7 trillion worldwide. It says Australia's carbon tax and the mining tax have had at most a "marginal" impact on perceptions of the country's risk. More important has been the government's success in shrinking its budget deficit.

The fund manager's new sovereign risk update ranks Australian government bonds as the world's seventh least risky, up from 10th least risky three months ago.

No other nation has managed to jump three places in the latest survey. The finding is at odds with a claim made by federal Coalition Treasury spokesman Joe Hockey last August that Labor was "adversely impacting Australia's sovereign risk profile".

BlackRock's Australian head of fixed income, Steve Miller, said Australia's position was "exceedingly strong" and strengthening.

"The plain fact is, compared to the rest of the world, and this is what we are doing, Australia's public debt position is very, very strong.

Whether you are looking at budget balance or public debt to gross domestic product, whichever way we look at it, Australia comes out exceedingly strong."

The new BlackRock survey rates the governments of Norway, Singapore, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, Canada, Australia, Taiwan, Germany and Chile as the 10 safest to lend to.

The United States is in the next 10 along with New Zealand and China, which have each moved up two places.

At the bottom, in positions 40 to 48 are Spain, Argentina, Ireland, Italy, Venezuela, Egypt, Portugal and Greece.

Japan and South Africa have each slid two places to 35 and 36.

Acting Treasurer Penny Wong welcomed the report as an "endorsement of Australia's strong public finances in the face of global headwinds".

A spokesman for Mr Hockey said the reality remained that business leaders had "expressed serious concern about the chopping and changing of government policy, the uncertainty of the taxation environment and the toxic relationship Canberra has with many members of the business community".

"Unquestionably, eight changes to the carbon tax, five versions of the mining tax, unexpected changes to business taxation, and the four largest deficits in Australia's history impacts on Australia's attractiveness as an investment destination," the spokesman said.

Speaking in reference to the interest rates Australia needs to pay to borrow money, Mr Miller said: "All other things being equal, this [the risk update] and the things that brought it about will put further downward pressure on bond yields." He said it would also make it easier for Australian state governments to borrow money.

The BlackRock calculation accords with those of the world's top three credit ratings agencies, which have given Australia their highest AAA rating. But it is a more recent calculation and the improvement reflects recent developments.

"The impact of the mining tax and the carbon tax would be marginal," Mr Miller said.

"We look at ability to pay and willingness to pay. Australia's budget position has improved. It has never defaulted. It has low debt by international standards."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/economy-gets-big-tick-20130116-2ctw9.html#ixzz2IBigQ9B4

Reading the article for what it is, it is both confusing and misleading.

The title is 'Economy gets big tick', implying that the assessment was done over the entire Australian economy, which it isn't.

The core of the article is based on Black Rock's assessment of Australian Govt Bonds, in comparison to the Govt Bonds of other countries. On Risk & Return, Australian Govt Bonds rate highly, but it is not an assessment of the Australian economy.

Government Bonds are part of one of a number of investments:
1. Shares / Equity
2. Bonds / Govt bonds
3. Commodities / Gold
And investments run much like a clock.

At times of economic boom, capital markets look to invest in equities because they carry the highest return, and investors will bear high risk.
At times of economic desperation, capital markets will turn to commodities, gold especially, because the Economic Risk of equity investments are even greater.
Somewhere in between, investors move from gold to bonds, before eventually moving in the longer term to equity.
It is an indication that international investment is prepared to take on more risk.

However, this article did not appear to state that investment in bonds was growing relative to other investments. (or maybe I missed that sentence.)

Most investors tend to jump on the bandwagon, especially "mum and dad" investors, and bandwagon investors usually get hurt the most.

Currently, bandwagon investors appear to be investing in:
1. The gold price is still relatively high over cyclical trends.
2. Bonds are relatively increasing from a low base, but many government bonds are considered close to junk bond status.
3. Bank equity, as it appears low risk, low return.

Australian bonds are relatively a good investment.

We are an honest country, with a fairly honest bureaucracy.
We are reasonably regulated.
We have reasonable fiscal governance.

In repect to government finances over time, if you spend more or drastically reduce government debt, the funds have to come from somewhere.
If debt is drastically reduced, as in the Howard government days.
If taxes aren't increased, as in the Howard government days.
Then the debt reduction is likely to come from the sale of government assets.

We all knew it when it was happening. Kennett did the same in Victoria.

The lesson for all is that if you owe too much, you end up having to sell the house.
 
It is important to differentiate between tax rates and tax revenue. Howard didn't increase tax rates, his government received increased revenues through the mining boom

Only half correct.
PAYG Bracket creep is the other half.
 
tigersnake said:
I could answer Willo, and I'd like to. But while I enjoy a debate on PRE, I don't really enjoy doing research.

The Telstra money given to farmer was a cunk of one of the sales which was promised to "environmental spending' which was promised to get the sale through. It was given to farmers via small grants under various schemes, Landcare, Int Catchment Mgt, basically fixing and improving farmland. Lot blown on admin via small grants and assessment panels. It was a couple of bill from memory. No decent environmental outcomes. Brilliant sleight of hand. Gotta give it to him.

Middle class welfare, I define it giving money to people who don't need it. Private Healthcare subsidies (budgeted at $1.5 bill a year blew out to double that first year), Homeowners grants (non means tested, people were collecting $10K for $1 mill houses, baby bonus, Huge increased funding to private schools, Huge increases in family payments non means tested.

If you can afford private healthcare or a house, you don't need government $$.

Again, to me none of this is controversial.

So it wasn't all the proceeds from the Telstra sale, but a chunk.
I don't think it's too much of a rort that "some" went to landcare, catchment management or improving farmland as you stated. Sounds like a good investment, if done judiciously.

I'd still like your definition of "middle class", if you could oblige.
One thing I agree with, I think any welfare should be means tested. (Or does that create more "lost money" in bureaucratic red tape?) Rather than handouts carte blanche.

But I don't think you can just put the whole lot in one basket. Home buyers grants ( I agree with your $1 million home part by the way) but just about every state (even under Labor governments) have them. It's not just about subsidising the purchase, initially it was to offset costs (admin?) from the gst. Do Federal Labor still have the Homebuyers Grant? I think they do. Is it means tested? I don't think so, so you could accuse them of "middle class welfare" profligacy as well.
Do we still have a "baby bonus?" er yes. Healthcare rebates (reduced for those over $160k), Private schools. yes. Parental care leave. Yes. So on and so on. Not all means tested.
After 5 and a bit years you'd think if it was all bad, it would have all been wiped.

But has that got to do with finances or losing voters? Probably a bit of both.

With your comment if you can afford private healthcare or a house you don't need government $$, I think that's too much of a sweeping statement. Some people have medical conditions etc that require specialist treatment and can't afford to wait for a spare bed etc. There are many individual cases that your statement doesn't cover.

As for affording to buy a home, it wasn't so much to subsidise the purchase, but to help offset the (admin) costs, and also stimulates the housing/building industry. I know many people that without the first homebuyers grant would not be in a position to buy a house. I do agree, as I said previously that it should/could be "means tested" or "price cutoff", no subsidy on $million homes.
 
There were a number of government floats during or around Howard's tenure.

Telstra
Commomwealth Bank
Qantas
immediately come to mind.

Others?
 
poppa x said:
And you may be surprised to learn that Kirner closed as many schools as Kennett.

Can that be explained in the context of this thread poppa?
 
Probably easier to deal with the here and now. You can't do much about rewriting history. I think everyone can pull out a story or two from Fraser, Hawke, Keating and Howard. Not much point being a revisionist. It's probably fair to say they all had their good days and bad.

I wonder how much we're paying on all welfare now. I think it gets bigger each year doesn't it? Here's an interesting article


Why Labor now owns middle class welfare
by Bernard Keane
Federal
Much of the criticism of middle class welfare has been directed at the Howard government, which in 2000 overhauled the family payments system to establish Family Tax Benefits A and B as part of the tax system overhaul.

Family Tax Benefits are not middle class welfare per se, of course. The bulk of FTB payments go to lower-income households. But it becomes middle class welfare — a term John Howard loathed — when you don’t restrict access to FTB to people on low incomes.

What’s a low income? Well, full-time adult average earnings at the end of 2010 were just under $69,000 pa. So let’s agree households on over $100,000 a year don’t qualify as low income, however much they may tell journalists they “don’t feel rich” and “struggle to make ends meet”.

In the first year of Howard’s new FTB payments system, payments were forecast to cost just under $10 billion.



Family Tax Benefit payments (actual except for 2011-12) and 2000-01 payments indexed, $b

In this week’s budget, 11 years on, they’re forecast to cost $18 billion in 2011-12. FTB payments have risen much faster than inflation (I used an index of 3.5%). And some of the biggest growth was in 2008-09, the first Rudd government budget when, despite curbs on eligibility for both the baby bonus (a tiddler of a program at around $1 billion a year) and FTB, spending leapt $2.8 billion. That’s because FTB is a favoured vehicle for governments to bribe middle-income voters in the run-up to elections.

If FTB payments had merely grown at normal indexation rates, we’d have had over $26 billion extra in the budget over the last decade.

In short, FTBs are now Labor’s as much as they are Howard’s, which makes the “war on the middle class” rhetoric from News Limited and its journalists even more risible. Howard might have carefully nurtured a sense of entitlement amongst Australians, but Labor has, rather than tackling it, adopted it. One of the strongest defenders of middle class welfare — or family payments, as he calls it — this week has been Wayne Swan himself, despite the witless illustrations to be found in the pages of The Daily Telegraph.

In this, Swan stands outside Labor tradition. The strange ideological flip that has the Coalition supporting unmeans-tested handouts while Labor — purportedly — cuts them back first emerged in the 1980s, when the Hawke government introduced means-testing for pensions, and the Howard-led opposition screamed in outrage, even while it ran televisions ads in the 1987 election campaign accusing Labor of handing out welfare to the undeserving. In fact, in the Hawke-Keating years, Labor was the party of rigour when it came to welfare.

But attitudes toward welfare have always been based not on the policy rationale for it, or on who needed it, but on who was receiving it. People who actually needed welfare have always come under ferocious scrutiny, while those who didn’t have got away decidedly easier.

Forgive the nostalgia, but Australia has, clearly, changed, and not for the better. In the Australia I grew up in in the 1970s, the middle class was proud of its self-reliance, proud that it received no handouts, from government or anyone else. Welfare was seen in some quarters as left-wing income redistribution, bordering on socialism. This partly fueled the remarkable wrath directed at the unemployed under the Fraser government, with incessant media coverage of lazy surfers spending all day sitting on a beach, funded by unemployment benefits.

The language was different, too. People talked about “welfare” and “the dole”. Now, of course, we talk carefully about “transfer payments” and “family payments”. I mean, goodness gracious, no one earning $140,000 would like to be told they’re on “welfare”.

A personal note: I suspect I absorbed those seemingly quaint sentiments, despite being raised in a low-income household. I retain to this day an aversion to unearned income. Don’t get me wrong, I love money — some of my best friends are money — but I don’t want it if I haven’t earned it. That’s probably why I don’t gamble, in addition to the fact that I regard games of chance as a tax on the innumerate. Or maybe it’s because, apart from a brief period early in my parenting years, I and my partner never qualified for any handouts. Perhaps my ongoing fury at middle class welfare is just a lifelong exercise in downward envy.

But whatever the case, clearly, my puritanical streak is at odds with the sense of entitlement and of handout entrepreneurialism abroad in the community, in which any and all handouts should be harvested.

Because, it’s not merely that governments hand over nearly $20 billion. If you’re eligible — if your household income is below $150,000 — you don’t receive the payments unless you apply to the Family Assistance Office. High income earners — families earning over $100,000 a year, let’s say — have to choose to get FTB. That is, high-income earners make a conscious decision to take handouts from government, despite their relative wealth compared to most of the population.

Of course, it’s entirely legal for them to do so, and the prevailing sentiment is quite the reverse of pride in self-reliance — a failure to hunt down every single handout for which you’re eligible is almost a personal failing, doing the wrong thing by your family, almost unAustralian.

As I noted yesterday, however, it’s our children and their kids who will pay the price for this indulgence. They will pay via higher taxes to support us in our dotage, in a fiscal framework in which structural deficit and inbuilt generosity remain prominent features at the point where the impacts of an ageing population are going to start to become apparent. That’s the irony of the argument that middle class welfare rewards people for raising children. Middle class welfare isn’t merely an issue of equity, or of quaint olden days values of self-reliance, but more particularly a growing fiscal problem that we’ll pass on to the very kids we’re using as fig leaves to justify indulging ourselves.

And in the Australia I grew up in, people who took welfare when they didn’t need it were called “bludgers”. It’s not clear why, despite the entitlement mentality on display in the media this week, that same term shouldn’t be applied to households earning substantially over $100,000 a year who choose to receive Family Tax Benefit payments. Aspirational, maybe. Working families, yes. But bludgers, as well.

But of course, that would never do.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another opinion piece for what it's worth. Even though he supplies some facts, no doubt it will brushed aside by a few. ;D


Does anyone have a definition for low and/or middle class? Do we have an "upper class"?
Or is it really low, middle and high "income" earners they really mean?
If can anyone tell me how it's defined. Is it the same as the government definition for tax or welfare?