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Economy gets big tick (TheAge)

Several months out of date but I found it an interesting article just the same.

Get the facts and figures right - there is no debt crisis
May 15, 2012
John Watson

Vanstone's claims are dodgy, unreliable - and wrong.

FACTS and the truth are partners. When Amanda Vanstone tries to conjure a national debt crisis, facts are few and far between - and unreliable. She starts with a misleading analogy, makes a few dodgy comparisons, throws around a couple of big scary numbers and then gets the key figure wrong.

''By the time a new government takes office, net government debt will be close to $300 billion, about four times the debt the Howard government paid off,'' she claims. No it won't. Vanstone is out by around $160 billion. And on current values, the debt is about half as big as the one the Howard government paid off.

Of course, Vanstone is mistakenly referring to gross debt. Even that debt, currently about $230 billion, is likely to fall some way short of the magic ''$300 billion'' figure that has been put about for years. Still, $143 billion - the level at which net debt is forecast to peak this financial year - seems like a horrendous amount of money for anyone to owe.

Well, let's return to one of the homely analogies favoured by Vanstone. The ability to manage a debt can only be assessed sensibly against income, as anyone who runs a household budget or business knows. They would also know that banks and other lenders require borrowers to present a statement of their income and assets against their spending, borrowing and other liabilities, so the lender gets a full picture of their financial status. That is why net debt is a more balanced indicator of the state of government finances.

And if the Commonwealth were a household, lenders would be falling over themselves to give it money, and they are. Average household debt in Australia has come down a bit but is still about 150 per cent of annual income. The government's gross debt is worth about 18 per cent of GDP. It is forecast to peak at $281 billion in 2013-14, when it will be just over 70 per cent of revenue - the government's income for that year.

So what kind of repair job awaits the next elected government? Will the Howard government's difficulties in paying off the $96 billion debt inherited in 1996 - also a recession hangover as revenue had only just recovered - be a ''picnic'' by comparison, as Vanstone claims? Only if growth in the economy and revenue since 1996 is entirely ignored.

In the last Keating government budget, revenue was $124 billion; it is now $369 billion, or three times as much. Net debt then was just over 18 per cent of GDP and 77 per cent of revenue. This year, net debt peaks at about 9.6 per cent of GDP, or 39 per cent of revenue, falling below 9 per cent of GDP around the time the next election is due. In relative terms, then, today's debt is about half as big as it was in 1996.

Still, $143 billion does seem like a lot of money. Surely, it will take ''generations'' to pay off, as claimed. Again, the financial statements that real-world lenders rely upon tell us something different. The Howard government paid off all debt by 2006, despite strong growth in its spending. But revenue had also risen to 25.7 per cent of GDP, compared to the current year's 22.3 per cent. That difference in receipts alone is worth about $50 billion a year.

Of course, that revenue has been lost to the impact of global recession. However, if we look at the budget's recovery from a downturn in 2000-01, the Howard government had more money than it knew what to do with, even as it paid off debt. Despite a sustained, much-criticised spending splurge, the government banked surpluses totalling more than $80 billion in six years. The windfall revenue alone - gains that had nothing to do with budget policy decisions - exceeded the debt repayment several times over. An analysis in the Treasury Economic Roundup in early 2008 shows that from 2004-05 to 2007-08, windfall revenue totalled $334 billion, of which the Howard government committed $314 billion to new spending or tax cuts.

All this suggests Commonwealth debt is perfectly manageable, indeed comfortingly low. The Australian government has never before had the highest possible credit rating from all three major rating agencies. The world's lenders and investors agree the government's debt is nothing to worry about, and they put their money where their mouths are. Commonwealth bond yields (the cost of government borrowing) are the lowest on record. The truth is the government's lenders have no concern about risk, or they would demand a risk premium.

Yet again, those with a political interest in manufacturing a crisis are casting facts overboard.

John Watson is a senior writer.
Follow the National Times on Twitter: @NationalTimesAU
 
willo said:
Yep, that's exactly it Rob. Unfortunately too many have their head in the sand. ..

You're welcome to enlighten us as to why you think too many have their head in the sand over this. Admittedly I don't lose any sleep over it. We've never been better off ourselves and considering the financial global crisis Australia seems, to me, to be in a comparative strong position. You haven't really given any reason or basis for your worry and concerns and seem to be only focussing on limited criteria. You question how the debt can be paid but don't know the answers. Why do you think it's such a big issue at this point in time?
 
rosy23 said:
Several months out of date but I found it an interesting article just the same.

Get the facts and figures right - there is no debt crisis
May 15, 2012
John Watson

Vanstone's claims are dodgy, unreliable - and wrong.

FACTS and the truth are partners. When Amanda Vanstone tries to conjure a national debt crisis, facts are few and far between - and unreliable. She starts with a misleading analogy, makes a few dodgy comparisons, throws around a couple of big scary numbers and then gets the key figure wrong.

''By the time a new government takes office, net government debt will be close to $300 billion, about four times the debt the Howard government paid off,'' she claims. No it won't. Vanstone is out by around $160 billion. And on current values, the debt is about half as big as the one the Howard government paid off.

Of course, Vanstone is mistakenly referring to gross debt. Even that debt, currently about $230 billion, is likely to fall some way short of the magic ''$300 billion'' figure that has been put about for years. Still, $143 billion - the level at which net debt is forecast to peak this financial year - seems like a horrendous amount of money for anyone to owe.

Well, let's return to one of the homely analogies favoured by Vanstone. The ability to manage a debt can only be assessed sensibly against income, as anyone who runs a household budget or business knows. They would also know that banks and other lenders require borrowers to present a statement of their income and assets against their spending, borrowing and other liabilities, so the lender gets a full picture of their financial status. That is why net debt is a more balanced indicator of the state of government finances.

And if the Commonwealth were a household, lenders would be falling over themselves to give it money, and they are. Average household debt in Australia has come down a bit but is still about 150 per cent of annual income. The government's gross debt is worth about 18 per cent of GDP. It is forecast to peak at $281 billion in 2013-14, when it will be just over 70 per cent of revenue - the government's income for that year.

So what kind of repair job awaits the next elected government? Will the Howard government's difficulties in paying off the $96 billion debt inherited in 1996 - also a recession hangover as revenue had only just recovered - be a ''picnic'' by comparison, as Vanstone claims? Only if growth in the economy and revenue since 1996 is entirely ignored.

In the last Keating government budget, revenue was $124 billion; it is now $369 billion, or three times as much. Net debt then was just over 18 per cent of GDP and 77 per cent of revenue. This year, net debt peaks at about 9.6 per cent of GDP, or 39 per cent of revenue, falling below 9 per cent of GDP around the time the next election is due. In relative terms, then, today's debt is about half as big as it was in 1996.

Still, $143 billion does seem like a lot of money. Surely, it will take ''generations'' to pay off, as claimed. Again, the financial statements that real-world lenders rely upon tell us something different. The Howard government paid off all debt by 2006, despite strong growth in its spending. But revenue had also risen to 25.7 per cent of GDP, compared to the current year's 22.3 per cent. That difference in receipts alone is worth about $50 billion a year.

Of course, that revenue has been lost to the impact of global recession. However, if we look at the budget's recovery from a downturn in 2000-01, the Howard government had more money than it knew what to do with, even as it paid off debt. Despite a sustained, much-criticised spending splurge, the government banked surpluses totalling more than $80 billion in six years. The windfall revenue alone - gains that had nothing to do with budget policy decisions - exceeded the debt repayment several times over. An analysis in the Treasury Economic Roundup in early 2008 shows that from 2004-05 to 2007-08, windfall revenue totalled $334 billion, of which the Howard government committed $314 billion to new spending or tax cuts.

All this suggests Commonwealth debt is perfectly manageable, indeed comfortingly low. The Australian government has never before had the highest possible credit rating from all three major rating agencies. The world's lenders and investors agree the government's debt is nothing to worry about, and they put their money where their mouths are. Commonwealth bond yields (the cost of government borrowing) are the lowest on record. The truth is the government's lenders have no concern about risk, or they would demand a risk premium.

Yet again, those with a political interest in manufacturing a crisis are casting facts overboard.

John Watson is a senior writer.
Follow the National Times on Twitter: @NationalTimesAU

Good to see he quotes figures from the Howard government. Very different kettle of fish to what we have now

$263 billion now and climbing.

rosy23 said:
You're welcome to enlighten us as to why you think too many have their head in the sand over this. Admittedly I don't lose any sleep over it. We've never been better off ourselves and considering the financial global crisis Australia seems, to me, to be in a comparative strong position. You haven't really given any reason or basis for your worry and concerns and seem to be only focussing on limited criteria. You question how the debt can be paid but don't know the answers. Why do you think it's such a big issue at this point in time?

Head in the sand, why do I need to enlighten anyone? It's fairly obvious. Even as you state you "don't lose any sleep over it".
I'm concerned about the capacity to pay it back and it keeps climbing. Good for you if you don't have any concerns, I do. How it will impact upon us in the coming years is a big concern.
I've never said I did have the answers, did I? I asked if anyone has the answers, didn't I? Especially the people who don't seem to have any concerns, maybe they know more than me to allay any concerns I have. It seems you like to answer a question with a question, without a reply yourself, except to say you "don't know" or "it's no concern"
I don't know why you'd even ask why I think it's a big issue. I thought I'd already stated my concerns. It's fairly obvious that someone will have to pay, sometime. What will be the result?

Brodders17 said:
Infrastructure= dodgy home insulation and school halls. Good investment.
efa
Yep that would be the limit of their vision of "infrastructure" Brodders. So glad you agree.
 
willo said:
Good to see he quotes figures from the Howard government. Very different kettle of fish to what we have now

Head in the sand, why do I need to enlighten anyone? It's fairly obvious. Even as you state you "don't lose any sleep over it".

Despite your claims otherwise you obviously can't help but make it about individual parties. Will leave you to that.

The head in the sand judgement is very condescending and implies you feel you have a better grasp than others on the topic, yet your posts don't seem to support that in any way. Private credit cards and Govt debt are very different situations.

You accuse others of an "ignore it and it will go away" motto, and repeat that I said I don't lose sleep over it. I'd like to know what difference worrying, and probably basing that worry on ignorance, makes to the situation? Do we actually have a lot to worry about in regard to our debt? I wouldn't have a clue but the articles I've posted don't seem to indicate panic stations at the moment. Are they wrong in their assessments?

You seem to be judging others without showing any better understanding of the situation yourself. As far as I can see it's only assumption that our debt isn't manageable or that plans aren't in place to control it as the global situation improves.
 
Tiger Rob said:
But we have gone from nearly zero debt to around $13,000 for every person in Australia in just 6 years. That doesn't sound too bad you say, well think about how much tax you pay yearly. Interest on the debt would be around $500 annually. What percentage of your tax is that? Now think about your extended family. I have two kids and two parents that don't work any more. Who's paying their share? When you start to think about that you realise how much of your hard earned is being wasted just paying interest on debt that didn't even exist 6 years ago. (yes I'm aware the govenrment has many other sources of income, but PAYG is a large proportion of the governments income)

What do we have to show for this debt? I wouldn't mind so much if we had major infrastructure to show for it, but IMO we do not have anything that we didn't have 6 years ago. I don't see better services or anything else that effects me. I'm not getting more for my tax dollars in any way. I tend to think about my tax paid as my investment in the government. I beleive my investment is being wasted.

$13K you say? But what does every man woman and child own as their share of the commonwealth? I dunno what the figure is, but its a heap more. You can't have it both ways. My house is worth $500K, I owe $200K.

Look on the tax thing, the government will always spend money on individual things that any one individual disagrees with. I strongly disagree with subsidies for coal mines and diesel rebates for miners for example. But, I just drove halfway across the country on great roads, a friend just got ill and got great care in free hospital, my nephews and nieces go to good schools, another friend got robbed and the police tracked down his stuff. To say 'I disagree with taxpayers $ being spent on X program or subsidy' is one thing, to say 'My investment is being wasted' is another, and wrong.
 
willo said:
Yep, that's exactly it Rob. Unfortunately too many have their head in the sand. Their motto is just ignore it and it will just go away, like fairy dust. That, or they'll compare us to Greece or the rest of the PIGS.

$billions wasted and still going down the same path. Infrastructure= pink batts and school halls. Absolute farce.

We've had this argument before, theres no changing your view. You could say there were some problems with it, as there are in any large scale program, but to say 'absolute farce' is tabloid hysteria.
 
Brodders17 said:
Infrastructure= home insulation and school classrooms. Good investment.

Can't agree to that. Why on earth should my taxes pay for insulation that you didn't consider worth investing in with your won money. If it was such a good idea, why didn't you pay for it?

And the classroom argument is sheer folly. I had a lot to do with that here in Tassie. I can guarantee you most of the money spent on schools went on upgrading staff facilities, new gym's and upgrading general air conditioning. Not one students education will be improved by it. Not one.

An utter waste of money that was spent far to quickly. Builders, Architects, Consultants and associated contractors were far to busy to handle all the work and put in excessive prices across the board.
 
willo said:
While the "debt by international standards" remains low, banks/lenders will still lend. When a government defaults (as many have) the debt/credit rating will take a hit. The interest rate will rise on current debt and it's hell in a handbag fairly quickly.

Well here's a question for you Rosy
So who and how will we pay back the 100's of $billions the government has borrowed? Over $263 billion atm and counting.
The government will just raise the debt ceiling; I don’t think it really has any intention on servicing the debt. They will keep monetising debt as long as they are allowed to do so through their buddies at the RBA. This whole problem has many different aspects to it, which all contribute to the economic ills we face. No isolated issue presents itself with the answer to our problems.

Some of these aspects include:
• The role of government in people’s lives;
• The insolvent nature of our banks due to fractional reserve lending;
• The broken link between gold and money, which allows central banks to print at will, destroying the purchasing power of our money;
• The damaging effects of central banking artificially controlling the rate of interest, which creates massive misallocation of capital in the economy, and the monopoly they hold on the issue of currency;
• Democracy and the welfare/warfare state as a viable model for robust political economy.
 
tigersnake said:
$13K you say? But what does every man woman and child own as their share of the commonwealth? I dunno what the figure is, but its a heap more. You can't have it both ways. My house is worth $500K, I owe $200K.

Look on the tax thing, the government will always spend money on individual things that any one individual disagrees with. I strongly disagree with subsidies for coal mines and diesel rebates for miners for example. But, I just drove halfway across the country on great roads, a friend just got ill and got great care in free hospital, my nephews and nieces go to good schools, another friend got robbed and the police tracked down his stuff. To say 'I disagree with taxpayers $ being spent on X program or subsidy' is one thing, to say 'My investment is being wasted' is another, and wrong.

Of course I am happy to have my tax money spent on schools, hospitals, police, fire fighters, etc. Throwing that up is intentionally dirtying my argument.

I get mad about the deficit because it has been created without providing any of these things.
 
Tiger Rob said:
Of course I am happy to have my tax money spent on schools, hospitals, police, fire fighters, etc. Throwing that up is intentionally dirtying my argument.

I get mad about the deficit because it has been created without providing any of these things.

You should focus your argument. 'PART of my investment is being wasted', thats fair enough. To me this is a huge and relentless problem, the whole country is buggered because some woman keeps having kids to get the baby bonus, et etc. It drives me mental.
 
tigersnake said:
You should focus your argument. 'PART of my investment is being wasted', thats fair enough. To me this is a huge and relentless problem, the whole country is buggered because some woman keeps having kids to get the baby bonus, et etc. It drives me mental.

Thanks for the debating tips.

On waste.....those effected by the Tasman Peninsula fires are able to make claims of up to $1000 for inconvenience, etc from Centrelink. You don't need to provide any proof, and don't have to show you have lost property, etc, simply state you were camping in the area and Julia hands you your cheque.

Friends at Centrelink tell me about the obvious bullshitters comming in all day every day all getting their cheque even though it is quite obvious they were no where near the fires. Utter madness to have an open cheque book for anyone to walk up and stick their hand out.
 
Tiger Rob said:
Of course I am happy to have my tax money spent on schools, hospitals, police, fire fighters, etc. Throwing that up is intentionally dirtying my argument.

I get mad about the deficit because it has been created without providing any of these things.

Isn't a claim the deficit was created "without providing any of these things" a slight exaggeration?

I did a search on some of the things you imply haven't had any spending. Admittedly this list of achievements is from a Labor pov but is it all false?
 
Tiger Rob said:
Thanks for the debating tips.

On waste.....those effected by the Tasman Peninsula fires are able to make claims of up to $1000 for inconvenience, etc from Centrelink. You don't need to provide any proof, and don't have to show you have lost property, etc, simply state you were camping in the area and Julia hands you your cheque.

Friends at Centrelink tell me about the obvious bullsh!tters comming in all day every day all getting their cheque even though it is quite obvious they were no where near the fires. Utter madness to have an open cheque book for anyone to walk up and stick their hand out.

No worries on the debating tips, precision makes for an interesting debate.

Agreed on the fire benefits. A person I know got over a grand because he couldn't get to work for a couple of days during floods. The dude is well off. That stuff sh!ts me too. But unfortunately if they tighten things there would be problems with people who need help being confronted with endless red tape. Large-scale programs will always have some unintended outcomes and scammers. All any government can do is minimise them. Its the big picture that counts. Whish is why policies and programs are evaluated with rigid criteria.

I'm not sure what your overall stance is, I actually think, like G-man in some ways, that people are generally too quick to 1. expect something from the government if anything goes wrong, and 2 blame the government if anything goes wrong.
 
willo said:
Governments just keep borrowing money without the means to pay it back. Artificially propping up the economy may be well and good, but someday, sometime, someone has to pay the piper.

Yep. We seem to be attempting to follow America's economy model. It's a tad worrying.
 
Tigertool said:
Yep. We seem to be attempting to follow America's economy model. It's a tad worrying.

I'm not worried about debt at all, as it stands. I am worried about our over reliance on mining, and also the inability to extract adequate tax from mining so a good base can be built for a possible future with less reliance on mining.
 
Tiger Rob said:
An utter waste of money that was spent far to quickly. Builders, Architects, Consultants and associated contractors were far to busy to handle all the work and put in excessive prices across the board.

Government apparently causes job loss.... bad.

Government causes job gain through infrastructure development... bad.

Bloody Government. Don't they know they should do... something... else.
 
willo said:
Well here's a question for you Rosy
So who and how will we pay back the 100's of $billions the government has borrowed? Over $263 billion atm and counting.
The government has been in deficit every year and keeps borrowing more and more. (How big a chunk has been paid on the borrowing?)
They keep trying to bring in new taxes (ie Mining Tax) but still can't service the debt.
While it may paint a "rosy" (excuse the pun) that Australia is a good place to invest (unless you're a manufacturer) compared to the rest of the world, there's a bit more to it.
please note: this is not meant to be a biased political opinion and I don't want to politicise this thread, but the fact is, the burgeoning debt concerns me greatly. Someone or something will eventually have to pay, one way or another.

Spot on Willo.

There was a post on another thread recently that stated the Howard years were the most taxed and I can see something similar happening if the Libs get in again, as someone has to at least slow the rising debt before bringing it back into line.

The current Government are not worried about climbing debt and have no intention of paying it off or even attempting to.....they cut costs and slashed certain things to get a surplus purely for political purposes, but overall, the debt is out of sight, out of mind, and will be eventually someone else's problem.

Here it is here:

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/clocks

Its going to be a massive concern later on and future Governments are going to endure pain (as well as us John Citizens!) in trying to control it, whether they be the Libs or the ALP.
 
Liverpool said:
Here it is here:

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/clocks

cant argue when you put it like that.

every australian owes over $205000 and it is all Gillards fault. outrageous.
 
rosy23 said:
Despite your claims otherwise you obviously can't help but make it about individual parties. Will leave you to that.

The head in the sand judgement is very condescending and implies you feel you have a better grasp than others on the topic, yet your posts don't seem to support that in any way. Private credit cards and Govt debt are very different situations.

You accuse others of an "ignore it and it will go away" motto, and repeat that I said I don't lose sleep over it. I'd like to know what difference worrying, and probably basing that worry on ignorance, makes to the situation? Do we actually have a lot to worry about in regard to our debt? I wouldn't have a clue but the articles I've posted don't seem to indicate panic stations at the moment. Are they wrong in their assessments?

You seem to be judging others without showing any better understanding of the situation yourself. As far as I can see it's only assumption that our debt isn't manageable or that plans aren't in place to control it as the global situation improves.
Oh come on Rosy, you posted articles that refers to both political parties. I commented on them.
Really, I couldn't give a tinkers toss if you or anyone thinks I'm being condescending. Far from it. That's why I asked how will the debt be serviced? Neither you nor anyone else has answered that yet. Apart from the dunno, not concerned.

You are right there are differences between government debt and private credit cards, but there is one underlying factor they both have in common. Both need to be paid back at some point. Or do you disagree with that?

Nobody has mentioned "panic stations" but it is a concern.
Now the "worry based on ignorance" is mighty condescending. I've asked the question many times,"how and when will the debt be serviced?" I've never claimed to have more knowledge about it than anyone else on this thread. Have I?
But it would be fair to say (I won't ask the question because it will be dodged yet again) that having to find $billions to service the debt means that other services or funding will be cut severely in time.
If some of the "head in the sand" people think that you NEVER have to pay down government debt you're bloody kidding yourselves.
Refer to this and this

While you say you're the articles you've posted don't seem to indicate panic stations, you're ad libbing a bit there. I said "concerned"
So we're paying $5 billion in interest every year. Yep $5 billion without touching the principal. Sound economics? You can make your own judgement.
Here's some other articles that beg to differ and here
and here

But they're probably all Lib/National party mouthpieces, so you don't have to take any notice of them.