Draft Hannah Mounsey to AFL women | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Draft Hannah Mounsey to AFL women

KnightersRevenge said:
I disagree on lumping Caster Semenya in with Hannah, although biology is so messy it is hard to know. While looking up more info on Caster (I thought I read somewhere that she had ambiguous genitalia at birth but couldn't find any evidence for it) I did find the this ---> Where’s the Rulebook for Sex Verification? it includes the following passage:
From reading articles at the time of the height of the Caster issue. The insinuation was that externally, she looks all female. Hence why her family undoubtedly raised her as a girl. Internally she has male sex organs (testicles - hence her body producing high testosterone levels). If this is true, had she not been an elite athlete, she perhaps would have gone through life blissfully unaware. But the controversy surrounding her sporting performance is what brought it to the surface.

Interestingly, there were also similar concerns raised quietly of Maria Mutola, who dominated the women's 800m over the decade immediately prior to Caster Semenya's rise to prominence. And several European discus and shot put throwers in the past as well. But for some reason it took until Caster for it to come to a head and for competitors and hence authorities to really pursue it. Which is why on an individual level, it was sad to see only Caster singled out.

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/-kIA_BlnMq0/Olympics+Day+8+Athletics/_n40y5M5_sF/Maria+de+Lurdes+Mutola

http://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/mozambiques-maria-mutola-sticks-out-her-tongue-as-she-wins-news-photo/639617045#mozambiques-maria-mutola-sticks-out-her-tongue-as-she-wins-the-800m-picture-id639617045

As mentioned by others, probably a bit off topic as intersex issues are slightly different than transgender issues in relation to sport. But I suppose it does have some connection, given the grey areas around gender/sex that seem a flavour of the month obsession at present.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
So where does that leave Hannah?

As they say, if it looks like a bloke, sounds like a bloke, smells like a bloke and has a *smile*, it's pretty much a bloke. I can't confirm the smells bit but the other boxes are ticked in this case
 
Out of interest , how good at footy is Hannah ?

If she was allowed to play , how would she go ?
 
I am not sure I pumped Caster and Hannah in the same boat. I just stated they were examples that created difficulty. Anyways I guess we leave it to others to decide. It might end up like EPO in cycling where sporting bodies say a testosterone level below a certain amount is required to compete in female sports.
 
The problem is that Hannah has grown her body with the help of male hormones for 26 years.

Just because she has been on hormone tablets for a couple of years hardly diminish's the advantage she now has over other females.
 
Just had the Friday long weekending brain fart n can't help myself.

If Hannah hasn't had the plumbing cut n tucked as yet, but identifies as a woman and is playing women's footy how do all her team mates manage in the change rooms? She'd need a separate private change room for herself, I can't see a bunch of girls comfortable hitting the showers while someone is roaming the rooms with a doodle dangling, or a bunch of blokes being comfortable if Hannah was sharing their change rooms either as she'd have boobs from the hormone work n be roaming around in frilly knickers.
 
TigerMasochist said:
Just had the Friday long weekending brain fart n can't help myself.

If Hannah hasn't had the plumbing cut n tucked as yet, but identifies as a woman and is playing women's footy how do all her team mates manage in the change rooms? She'd need a separate private change room for herself, I can't see a bunch of girls comfortable hitting the showers while someone is roaming the rooms with a doodle dangling, or a bunch of blokes being comfortable if Hannah was sharing their change rooms either as she'd have boobs from the hormone work n be roaming around in frilly knickers.

Excuse my ignorance on this story as I haven't bothered to inform myself, but as you say Maso, if pecker is still there, how is she labelled a woman? No wonder she still looks blokey.
 
TigerForce said:
Excuse my ignorance on this story as I haven't bothered to inform myself, but as you say Maso, if pecker is still there, how is she labelled a woman? No wonder she still looks blokey.

How much do you reckon it cost Bruce Jenner to 'transform' into Caitlyn? How many surgeries? How much per treatment? This was one of the things that annoyed me about the whole thing. Having millions to spend doesn't seem to me to make you a champion of people like Hannah, who can't afford it and have to look the way they do while trying to live the way they feel. Can't be easy.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
How much do you reckon it cost Bruce Jenner to 'transform' into Caitlyn? How many surgeries? How much per treatment? This was one of the things that annoyed me about the whole thing. Having millions to spend doesn't seem to me to make you a champion of people like Hannah, who can't afford it and have to look the way they do while trying to live the way they feel. Can't be easy.

I'm reading above $100,000 but not in the $m. It's all to risky and dangerous. Didn't Pete Burns (Dead or Alive singer) die of later complications?
 
Fact remains that even post opp Mounsey would still biologically be a fella. You're male if you have male reproductive organs, and you're female if you have female reproductive organs.

Post opp Mounsey is a guy with a mutilated inverted *smile*, no womb.......... and a mental problem. I don't say that with any malice, as Mounsey wouldn't be identifying as a female just for the fun of it, but all political correctness aside, what he has is a mental problem, and one that really i guess can't be fixed.

Modern society now moves that problem from the transgender individual to the rest of society. If we aren't prepared to "Pretend" that these people are the sex they identify as, then we apparently have the problem. It's like the story of the Emperors New Clothes. Right now society is standing there butt naked thinking we're wearing fine new threads............ but we ain't! We're just plain old butt naked pretenders, because Mounsey is a fella.

There's a white lady in the USA at the moment who desperately wants to be black, saying she identifies as an afro-American. She's permed her hair into an afro and colours her skin and is taking a load of heat from all directions including the black community. Identity politics opens a whole murky pandora's box.
 
frickenel said:
Fact remains that even post opp Mounsey would still biologically be a fella. You're male if you have male reproductive organs, and you're female if you have female reproductive organs.

Post opp Mounsey is a guy with a mutilated inverted *smile*, no womb.......... and a mental problem. I don't say that with any malice, as Mounsey wouldn't be identifying as a female just for the fun of it, but all political correctness aside, what he has is a mental problem, and one that really i guess can't be fixed.

Modern society now moves that problem from the transgender individual to the rest of society. If we aren't prepared to "Pretend" that these people are the sex they identify as, then we apparently have the problem. It's like the story of the Emperors New Clothes. Right now society is standing there butt naked thinking we're wearing fine new threads............ but we ain't! We're just plain old butt naked pretenders, because Mounsey is a fella.

There's a white lady in the USA at the moment who desperately wants to be black, saying she identifies as an afro-American. She's permed her hair into an afro and colours her skin and is taking a load of heat from all directions including the black community. Identity politics opens a whole murky pandora's box.

Hannah has gender dysphoria, and I agree that an operation that mutilates her genitals combined with hormone therapy will not technically maker her a female, any more than she is right now.

She may perceive her self to be more of a female because of what she sees in the mirror, however the fact will remain that the cells of males and females have many basic biochemical differences, with many of which stemming from genetic rather than hormonal differences alone.

Hence getting her hormones down to a certain level alone won't really make her a female, and not letting her play women's footy is not an acceptance or tolerance issue; it's just a decision based on scientific reality.

And the gender non binary pronoun stuff that is starting to get around is particularity interesting. If we have already arrived at people being feeling gender neutral, and it ends up being legislated for, then where will we get to next? And how much of actual reality will we end up bending to conform to the ideas in people's minds?
 
There are a few issues kind of swirling and meshing together and it is getting harder to keep them separate. Gender is tough. The Caster Semenya story highlights it. No question the she has female genetalia (as far as I can ascertain, I cant even believe I am writing this sentence). But the tiny number of people whose biology is ambiguous on some level, or whose mental gender is counter to their apparent biology, shouldn't have such a big effect on society. Everything is amplified in the 24hr news cycle, 24hr online, 'social media', echo chamber world we live in.

Can we at least agree there are only 2 types of sex cells and that 'traditional females' produce ova and 'traditional males' produce sperm? Is that not a way to differentiate sexes?
 
TigerMasochist said:
If Hannah hasn't had the plumbing cut n tucked as yet, but identifies as a woman and is playing women's footy how do all her team mates manage in the change rooms? She'd need a separate private change room for herself, I can't see a bunch of girls comfortable hitting the showers while someone is roaming the rooms with a doodle dangling, or a bunch of blokes being comfortable if Hannah was sharing their change rooms either as she'd have boobs from the hormone work n be roaming around in frilly knickers.

You do realise that women don't walk around change rooms naked or shower in them with their teammates. That's the domain of men I'm afraid.
 
Total Tiger said:
You do realise that women don't walk around change rooms naked or shower in them with their teammates. That's the domain of men I'm afraid.
Haven't spent a lot of time in female change rooms ( unfortunately ;D ). So what then, do women have separate little cubicles to hide in or just go home all sweaty n muddy after a game so they can shower with no other females body judging them?
 
KnightersRevenge said:
Not sure if it contributes to the debate or not, but anyway.



Might seem a bit like pop science, but my wife is a scientist, she said although its presented in a simple way is all solid...






Male or Female? Why a Cell's Sex Matters
By Ross Pomeroy
November 19, 2013
It may surprise you to learn that -- like humans -- cells can be male or female. The distinction is more subtle at the cellular level, but it can actually affect how cells react in a variety of experiments. Still, many scientists don't take into account the sex of their cells. According to a new review published in the American Journal of Physiology, they really should.

A good chunk of scientific research is performed in vitro. These experiments are undertaken using components of an organism rather than the whole organism, itself. For example, if a researcher has a disease treatment or biological theory they'd like to examine, they'll often start by testing it on lines of cells; they won't simply jump into animal tests.

Each cell line is derived from a single donor, and like every cell in the human body, each of the acquired cells contains 23 pairs of coiled DNA, called chromosomes. Included in this group are the two sex chromosomes: simply dubbed X and Y. Cells in women's bodies have two X chromosomes (XX), while cells in men's bodies have one X and one Y (XY). Thus, we get our male and female cells. Approximately 5% of the human genome resides on these chromosomes -- 1,846 genes on the X and 454 on the Y. This means that male and female cells are fundamentally dissimilar on a genetic level.

The scientists behind the new review, Kalpit Shah, Charles McCormack, and Neil Bradbury, all professors at Chicago Medical School of Rosalind Franklin University, say that these differences are often ignored, despite the fact that genes expressed on sex chromosomes can impact cell function and how they react to all sorts of stimuli.

Previous research has made this clear. Cultured female neurons uptake dopamine -- a neurotransmitter that helps regulate feelings of pain and pleasure -- twice as quickly as male neurons. Female neurons and kidney cells are also more susceptible to chemical agents that lead to programmed cell death. And female liver cells contain more of the gene CYP3A. This last difference is especially crucial, as the actions of CYP3A account for how over half the drugs on the market today are metabolized!

"Thus, for 50% of prescription drugs, the effectiveness of a particular drug dosage... may be quite different in females compared to males," the authors explain. Consider this possible side effect: women are 50 to 75 percent more likely than men to experience an adverse drug reaction. This is caused by a wide range of factors, chiefly because females weigh less, but cellular mechanisms undoubtedly contribute to it.

Such a statistic makes it clear than researchers should consider the sex of their cell lines when testing drugs in vitro, as the effects on male and female lines may not be the same. But it may be even more important when it comes to stem cells, as male and female varieties are decidedly not created equal.

"Female muscle-derived stem cells are less sensitive to oxidative stress and regenerate skeletal muscle much more efficiently than muscle-derived stem cells from their male counterparts," the authors write. "[This] is likely to have a big impact upon other stem cell mediated therapies, should the findings be replicated for other diseases.

Over the years, differences in disease rates and drug effects among males and females have often been attributed to variations in hormone levels. But it's entirely possible that many of these dissimilarities result from underlying differences at the cellular level. Like people, cells are also male and female, and they are plainly not the same. Their unique characteristics must be accounted for in scientific research.

Souce: Kalpit Shah, Charles E McCormack, Neil A Bradbury. "Do you know the sex of your cells?" American Journal of Physiology - Cell Physiology. Published 6 November 2013. Vol. no. DOI: 10.1152/ajpcell.00281.2013
 
Total Tiger said:
You do realise that women don't walk around change rooms naked or shower in them with their teammates. That's the domain of men I'm afraid.

What? Next you"ll be claiming that they don't have pillow fights and jelly wrestling at their pie nights.
You obviously know nothing about woman's football