David Hicks [Split from Saddam thread]

[Liverpool]

And the reason he didn't get tried in Afghanistan was because the US took him to their home soil. That's hardly Hicks' fault.

No it isn't, but it is the Australian Government's fault for bringing him back here.....the same Government that has been vilified for their actions by, most notably, Terry Hicks!

I wonder how many parents of incarcerated Australian citizens overseas, would complain as vehemently as Terry Hicks, if they were able to bring their sons/daughters home to serve out their time at the "Hilton".

Not that I am advocating bringing Australian citizens, who are prisoners oversease home.....but I do question why David Hicks has been given this luxury of serving out his time here, when if anything, he should be serving it out in Afghanistan.

 

[Anduril]

So how many other Aus Cits have been indefinitely incarcerated without trial overseas ?

 

[Liverpool]

So how many other Aus Cits have been indefinitely incarcerated without trial overseas ?

He's had his trial and took a plea, which means he is a self-confessed terrorist with al-Qaeda/Taliban...and therefore GUILTY of the charges.

The trial part is over....and we could argue until the cows come home (and we have for 8 pages) as to whether he was guilty or should have had a trial, or shouldn't have had a trial.

Fact of the matter is, his trial should have been in Afghanistan, and he should be serving his time in Afghanistan.....not here.

 

[Tiger Attack]

You're being silly re. the Afghanistan thing. When prisoners are taken in time of war they are usually carted off to all sorts of locations.

You need to take this up with the Americans, Liverpool.

 

[Anduril]

You're being silly re. the Afghanistan thing. When prisoners are taken in time of war they are usually carted off to all sorts of locations.

You need to take this up with the Americans, Liverpool.

The Americans have a particularly nasty way of doing it. Ask the Canadian govt.

Hicks pleaded guilty to one charge.

 

[Liverpool]

You're being silly re. the Afghanistan thing. When prisoners are taken in time of war they are usually carted off to all sorts of locations.

You need to take this up with the Americans, Liverpool.

I had no problem him being carted off to Gitmo...he's a traitor to this country, and was fighting with an army whose enemy were Australian citizens.
Quite ironic, considering people claim the citizenship has been "devalued" because of the Government's stance against Hicks.

What I am on about, is that the Australian Government should not have allowed him back here....it has nothing to do with the Americans.

Hicks pleaded guilty to one charge.

I don't care...he plead guilty...thats all that counts.
To me, if he is guilty of committing a crime in Afghanistan, then Afghanistan is where he should be serving his time...not at the Hilton.

 

[Tiger Attack]

Last time i check you could come and go from the Hilton, have a swim in the pool and order some champagne from room service.

Gee he's a lucky fella!

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

You're being silly re. the Afghanistan thing. When prisoners are taken in time of war they are usually carted off to all sorts of locations.

You need to take this up with the Americans, Liverpool.

The Americans have a particularly nasty way of doing it. Ask the Canadian govt.

Hicks pleaded guilty to one charge.

Hicks pleased guilty to one charge, however the whole process surrounding his incarceration and trial raise serious questions as to whether he really had a choice.

I don't know Hicks from a bar of soap, it is highly likely that he did train with the Taliban (if he did it a few years ago he could have been working for the CIA!). However, the lack of process and natural justice are highly concerning. Incarceration for an extended period without charge, exacerbated by claims of torture, which given the leaks from Iraqi prisons and the personal comments of George W on the matter aren't too far-fetched, mean that any plea of guilty by Hicks must potentially be viewed as a means to escape incarceration at Gitmo. Either way the process is irreperably tainted. I guess the US and Australian governments (and Liverpool) have got their 'out' as they will just point to the conviction - 'he is a convicted aider of terrorism' (whatever that means). I feel that if he was truly guilty of a criminal act, it wouldn't have taken 5 years and the provision of novel laws to convict him.

Guilty or not, we will never really know for sure. That is the outcome of this fiasco. The other major one being the United States loss of ANY moral high ground in any situation. They are guilty of suspending natural justice for an 'enemy combatant' and the Australian government provided tacit approval of the action. Even the British government wouldn't allow it!

 

[Liverpool]

Last time i check you could come and go from the Hilton, have a swim in the pool and order some champagne from room service.

Gee he's a lucky fella!

Not far off it mate:

South Australian Correctional Services acting chief executive Greg Weir said Hicks had spent his first day resting and being assessed by staff at Yatala.
He was offered toast, cereal and coffee for breakfast yesterday, and a meat and salad roll for lunch. Hicks will receive meals at 8am, 11.30am and 4pm.
He will eat in his cell and can expect sandwiches, pies and pasties for lunch and meat and vegetables for dinner.
Prison staff will finalise a comprehensive management plan for Hicks by the end of the week, including arrangements for him to complete Year 12.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21772464-601,00.html

"In the next week or so, we'll prepare a detailed management plan into the future for him, specifically tailored to his needs."
"They may be allowed books, TV, those type of items, once again, an individual assessment is made on a prisoner by prisoner basis."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200705/1928983.htm?sa

But the terrorism supporter has access to a radio to keep him company and could be given newspapers and a TV.
Hicks - who completed a Year 11 education at Guantanamo Bay - has already revealed plans to complete his HSC and study ecology or zoology at university.
"In the next week or so we'll prepare a detailed management plan for him specifically tailored to his needs," South Australian Correctional Services acting chief executive Greg Weir said yesterday.
Public outrage swelled yesterday after Hicks was returned from Guantanamo Bay on a luxury private Gulfstream jet once used by tennis ace Lleyton Hewitt.
Hicks was allowed to watch the Martin Scorcese blockbuster The Departed - a violent gangster film starring Jack Nicholson and Leonardo DiCaprio - during the 23-hour flight.
The Federal Government maintained it had no choice but to pay $500,000 for the trip.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21770619-2,00.html

He's doing better than a lot of Australian citizens out there who have done nothing wrong at all!

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Not far off it mate:

Yes, exactly like the Hilton.

Would drawn and quartered be preferable?

 

[Tiger Attack]

You're kidding yourself, Liverpool. IF jail is so good why don't you incarcerate yourself?

 

[RemoteTiger]

You're being silly re. the Afghanistan thing. When prisoners are taken in time of war they are usually carted off to all sorts of locations.

You need to take this up with the Americans, Liverpool.

The Americans have a particularly nasty way of doing it. Ask the Canadian govt.

Hicks pleaded guilty to one charge.

Hicks pleased guilty to one charge, however the whole process surrounding his incarceration and trial raise serious questions as to whether he really had a choice.

I don't know Hicks from a bar of soap, it is highly likely that he did train with the Taliban (if he did it a few years ago he could have been working for the CIA!). However, the lack of process and natural justice are highly concerning. Incarceration for an extended period without charge, exacerbated by claims of torture, which given the leaks from Iraqi prisons and the personal comments of George W on the matter aren't too far-fetched, mean that any plea of guilty by Hicks must potentially be viewed as a means to escape incarceration at Gitmo. Either way the process is irreperably tainted. I guess the US and Australian governments (and Liverpool) have got their 'out' as they will just point to the conviction - 'he is a convicted aider of terrorism' (whatever that means). I feel that if he was truly guilty of a criminal act, it wouldn't have taken 5 years and the provision of novel laws to convict him.

Guilty or not, we will never really know for sure. That is the outcome of this fiasco. The other major one being the United States loss of ANY moral high ground in any situation. They are guilty of suspending natural justice for an 'enemy combatant' and the Australian government provided tacit approval of the action. Even the British government wouldn't allow it!

IMO your statement above, Panthera tigris FC, is particularly strong and holds some deep truths that most fair Australians would agree with.

I will not defend Hicks for I do not know what the truth is about him or his actions - (and because of this saga nobody does) - but - I will defend his right as an Australian Citizen to be treated humanely and with respect under the law. (And Liverpool don't give me any of your "just like the way the Taliban humanely treat their victims". We as a civilized society have to rise above that type of thinking!)

To me Hicks has not been proven guilty of anything connected to the Taliban - he has only been proven guilty of having a gut full of the treatment dished out a G-Bay.

And that tells me the Yanks are no better than those who they tell us are our enemies.

Our law is the law for Australians - and it is not only to protect innocent and guilty Australian citizens alike but also to protect our Australian society from slipping into anarchy.

 

[Liverpool]

Not far off it mate:

Yes, exactly like the Hilton.

Would drawn and quartered be preferable?

No...but something like a jail might be a good start.

Next, he'll be recruited by the ALP as a "celebrity candidate" (a la McKew, Bailey, Garrett, Cornes, etc.... :hihi)

You're kidding yourself, Liverpool. IF jail is so good why don't you incarcerate yourself?

Because I'm doing quite well out here thanks....but I'm sure any homeless person, sleeping under a railway bridge tonight, hunting through rubbish bins for scraps of food, might feel a little aggrieved at how a self-confessed traitor of this country, can be lauded with so many luxuries.

At best, he should be put in a cell, and give bread/water 3 times a day.
That to me, is jail.

 

[Tiger Attack]

Not far off it mate:

Yes, exactly like the Hilton.

Would drawn and quartered be preferable?

No...but something like a jail might be a good start.

Next, he'll be recruited by the ALP as a "celebrity candidate" (a la McKew, Bailey, Garrett, Cornes, etc.... :hihi)

You're kidding yourself, Liverpool. IF jail is so good why don't you incarcerate yourself?

Because I'm doing quite well out here thanks....but I'm sure any homeless person, sleeping under a railway bridge tonight, hunting through rubbish bins for scraps of food, might feel a little aggrieved at how a self-confessed traitor of this country, can be lauded with so many luxuries.

At best, he should be put in a cell, and give bread/water 3 times a day.
That to me, is jail.

Hey lets lock up the homeless people too!

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Because I'm doing quite well out here thanks....but I'm sure any homeless person, sleeping under a railway bridge tonight, hunting through rubbish bins for scraps of food, might feel a little aggrieved at how a self-confessed traitor of this country, can be lauded with so many luxuries.

That statement carries little weight for reasons I described above

At best, he should be put in a cell, and give bread/water 3 times a day.
That to me, is jail.

Clearly you see prison as purely punitive. Do you see any role for rehabilitation in the penal system?

 

[Tiger Attack]

Liverpool, you seem strong in your convictions, as I am in mine. have you written to the Australian Govt calling for a harsher sentence or to espouse your try him in Afghanistan theory? Or do you just mouth off in here?

In fact, why don't you go to Hicks' jail and mount some sort of protest outside the prison walls?

 

[Liverpool]

I will not defend Hicks for I do not know what the truth is about him or his actions - (and because of this saga nobody does) - but - I will defend his right as an Australian Citizen to be treated humanely and with respect under the law. (And Liverpool don't give me any of your "just like the way the Taliban humanely treat their victims". We as a civilized society have to rise above that type of thinking!)

Remote,

You have hit the nail on the head as to the whole problem.

What you call "civilised society" (and what I call "burying your left head in the sand") continue to treat terrorists as something different to the rest of us.

They are human beings who should be held accountable for their actions, not be given an excuse to do what they do.
You expect us to have our hands tied behind our backs....because "they're terrorists, its o.k, its what they do".

A similar line of thought was heard when the Israeli/Hezbollah conflict was on...where Israeli bombs, which killed civilians was treated with disgust, yet Hezbollah rockets fired randomly into Israel, killing citizens there, were ignored as "thats what Hezbollah do, Israel are expected to have a higher moral ground".
Its hypocrisy at its greatest.

Perfect example on this very forum, where I posted this page:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C04%5C22%5Cstory_22-4-2007_pg7_8

And the response I got from Anduril, a champion of human rights on this very thread:

As to the rest of the above....whatever!

Read it for yourselves here:

http://www.puntroadend.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=19796.615

Here, we have had 9 pages now, of a collaborator of everything against what we hold dear.....willing to fight against Australian citizens....willing to learn how to kill you, me, and other Australian citizens....yet, on the other hand, we have a 12 year old beheading a fellow human being, and only one reply of "whatever" is heard.
Yet, hold someone in an orange jumpsuit, feed him 3 times a day, and heaven forbid!

I'm disappointed RemoteTiger, that you expect me to take on board what the Government have done (or haven't done)...and Hicks' human rights...yet, when the shoe is on the other foot, and it is the human rights of other Australian citizens at the mercy of the same terrorists Hicks was aiding and abetting, I get told "we're supposed to rise above this type of thinking".

In WW2, the Japanese were just as merciless at todays terrorists....executing Australian soldiers, beheading them with swords, and committing all sorts of tortuous acts upon them.
Should these acts be ignored, and the Australian soldiers ignored, because we were expected to take a higher moral stance than the Japanese?
They also used 'suicide bombers' as a means of attack...maybe not on civilians like todays Islamic terrorists...but by using kamikaze pilots and their planes and using them as flying bombs against Allied forces.
The only way we stopped them in the end, was two atomic bombs, and those who committed torture and executions, tried and executed themselves.

It seems the only complaint I hear is the holding of Hicks for 5 years before the trial.

The "rising above the terrorists line of thinking" is exactly why Hicks is still alive....why he still has all his limbs...and why he is enjoying 3 meals a day, TV, and 'rehabilitation' in the Adelaide 'Hilton'.
For that, Terry Hicks (and David Hicks) should be on their knees thanking them, for not treating him the same as that prisoner who was beheaded by the 12 year old boy.

 

[Tiger Attack]

They also used 'suicide bombers' as a means of attack...maybe not on civilians like todays Islamic terrorists...but by using kamikaze pilots and their planes and using them as flying bombs against Allied forces.
The only way we stopped them in the end, was two atomic bombs, and those who committed torture and executions, tried and executed themselves.

Why did they drop the second bomb? Nagasaki was a soft target and countless civillians died. Hardly necessary?

Don't u think one bomb would have done the job?

 

[Liverpool]

Why did they drop the second bomb? Nagasaki was a soft target and countless civillians died. Hardly necessary?

Don't u think one bomb would have done the job?

The Japanese didn't surrender until after the 2nd bomb was dropped, so obviously one wasn't enough.

Nagasaki was a military target that had been bombed before, and more people died at Hiroshima than Nagasaki.

More civilians in Japan, as well as thousands upon thousands of American (and Australian) troops would have been killed, if it wasn't for these atomic bombs.

Can you imagine the slaughter on mainland Japan, if the Allied troops were forced to "island hop" their way, hand to hand combat in the streets, booby-trapped houses, and civilians caught in the crossfire....because the likes of Remote/Panthera/Anduril/yourself urged us to "take the moral high ground" and NOT use these atomic bombs?

 

[Tiger Attack]

The Japanese didn't surrender until after the 2nd bomb was dropped, so obviously one wasn't enough.

Nagasaki was a military target that had been bombed before, and more people died at Hiroshima than Nagasaki.

More civilians in Japan, as well as thousands upon thousands of American (and Australian) troops would have been killed, if it wasn't for these atomic bombs.

Can you imagine the slaughter on mainland Japan, if the Allied troops were forced to "island hop" their way, hand to hand combat in the streets, booby-trapped houses, and civilians caught in the crossfire....because the likes of Remote/Panthera/Anduril/yourself urged us to "take the moral high ground" and NOT use these atomic bombs?

Another theory goes that the Americans were keen to test the bomb out (they didnt really know what would happen) and thus scare the Russians, who they knew would be the next problem.

It wasn't as simple as finishing the war quickly.