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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
David Hicks [Split from Saddam thread]
- Thread starter Liverpool
- Start date
Anduril said:
Anduril,
When you mentioned Canada, I remembered hearing/reading something.....and found this story.
I've highlighted the Canadian part for you.
I've also highlighted a couple of bits that might interest Remote/Panthera/TigerAttack as well:
Hicks's sensible mood won't stop the civil liberty debate
Gerard Henderson
May 22, 2007
It's early days yet. However, from the available evidence, it seems David Hicks is behaving more responsibly than some members of the David Hicks fan club. Hicks's lawyer David McLeod says his client has instructed him to abandon any idea of taking further legal action and has indicated he does not intend to make money from selling his story. This suggests that Hicks may be intent on serving out his time in Adelaide's Yatala Prison and getting on with the rest of his life.
Hicks's apparent position is unlikely to prevent many members of the civil liberties lobby from arguing his case. The most recent entrant in the debate is Kristine Klugman, the president of Civil Liberties Australia. Interviewed on Channel Ten's Meet the Press on Sunday, she said "there was no evidence against" Hicks and that "he finally pleaded guilty to get out of a hellhole". [size=10pt]Klugman alleged that Australia was at greater risk of a terrorist attack because of our commitment in Iraq and that consequently, "we have a level of security fear here that is not evident in New Zealand or in Canada[/size]".
[size=10pt]Despite the resources of the association and a doctorate in politics, Klugman appears unaware that national security is a concern in Canada. A group of Canadian Muslims has been charged with possessing bomb-making equipment and planning to attack targets including Parliament House in Ottawa. One of the men has been accused of wanting to behead Canada's Prime Minister, Stephen Harper. Canada has no forces in Iraq[/size].
Like Klugman, many members of the civil liberties lobby refuse to accept that Hicks did what he claimed to have done in correspondence with his family, and in interviews which he freely gave to Australian and US authorities following his detention. Leigh Sales, the ABC's national security correspondent, is critical of the Bush Administration and the Howard Government in her book Detainee 002: The Case of David Hicks. (MUP, 2007). Yet she says the most significant evidence against Hicks was his statements, particularly the interview he gave to the Australian Federal Police in May 2002.
Sales says: "Hicks gave detailed and extensive information about his activities in Afghanistan, including his time in al-Qaeda training camps." She says he provided this information freely.
Some reviewers have been disappointed that Sales's account is fair and balanced. In The Age, the legal academic Gerry Simpson said that Sales's "general argument is weakened by an obsession with balance and pragmatism". He says "there is only one side to be on in such a debate" - that is, Hicks's side. The columnist Richard Ackland, in a review for the Herald, came to a similar conclusion, saying "this is an annoyingly fair book".
As far as I am aware, no member of the civil liberties lobby has criticised the content of the correspondence which Hicks forwarded to his father, Terry. This was released by the Hicks family to the directors of the pro-Hicks documentary The President Versus David Hicks. In these letters Hicks called for an end to what he termed the "Western-Jewish domination of the world", celebrated Islamist beheadings and declared he enjoyed attempting to kill individuals while firing ammunition from the Pakistani side of the Kashmir line of control.
It is as if members of the civil liberties lobby went into a state of collective denial about the one-time activities of the one-time member of the Taliban. So much so that Sydney's 2007 Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras included a David Hicks float, despite the fact the Taliban regime regarded homosexuals as suitable candidates for beheadings. It may be that Hicks has renounced the Taliban, al-Qaeda and all that. But this is not yet known.
Irrespective of what the lobby maintains, there is abundant evidence Hicks did give material support to terrorism, the charge which he eventually pleaded guilty to under the US military commission system. Certainly he was held for too long without trial. However, the length of his incarceration was not the sole responsibility of US authorities.
Detainee 002 makes it clear Hicks's Australian lawyer, Stephen Kenny, with his American lawyer, Major Michael Mori, and members of the Hicks family, opposed a plea bargain in 2004 which would have seen Hicks returned to Australia three years ago.
A tough attitude to Hicks is not just the preserve of John Howard. Mike Rann, South Australia's Labor Premier, has referred to the Adelaide-born supporter of terrorism as having an "unsavoury record" and has proposed that when released at the end of the year, Hicks should be placed under a control order. Rann's deputy, Kevin Foley, on Sunday said: "Hicks is a very foolish man at best [and] an extremely dangerous man at worst."
The Howard Government could have better handled the Hicks matter. In any event, it appears Hicks's return, and his apparent sensible attitude, will lead to a decline of interest in the case, despite the civil liberties lobby's protestations.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/hickss-sensible-mood-wont-stop-the-civil-liberty-debate/2007/05/21/1179601324160.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
And this from the Sydney morning Herald...."The Age"s leftist brother. :clap :clap :clap
If u think the Age and the SMH are 'leftist' then you have no idea what the term means, Liverpool.
Tiger Attack said:
It's called war mate...it's not meant to be a boy scout convention.
Just wait until Tehran has their nuclear weapons ready....then you'll see what cold-hearted is.
I suggest if you want to ever visit Israel...do it soon...cause it might no be there once the Iranians have their finger on the red button!
Tiger Attack said:
Well, let's say it isn't in the middle....and its definitely not leaning to the right...so...
Tiger Attack said:
Smack bang in the centre if you ask me... but trending right... like everything these days...
Gypsy__Jazz said:
*smile* Gypsy.
Go to "The Age" any time of the day, and there will be an "anti-Howard" (or "pro-Rudd) story on the homepage.
Currently, as I speak, there is a big photo of the 4 "celebrity candidates" running for the ALP.
The title isn't "Not another celebrity candidate who knows nothing about politics"...oh no....the title of the story is....*drum roll please*:
"Weatherman Rudd's latest star"
:rofl
Next thing Gypsy, you'll be telling me Tivendale is an excellent right foot kick.... :hihi
Liverpool said:
If it was so left wing as u say, it would champion the cause of the working classes. It doesnt. its very middle class and has supported the Howard govt for years.
And if it seems pro Rudd, well thats hardly left wing.
Tiger Attack said:
It hasn't been a Howard supporter when I have read it.
All I'm saying is it leans to the left....its not an extreme-leftist paper like this:
http://www.greenleft.org.au/
...but it's definitely anti-Government in the majority of its views.
Liverpool said:
My apologies... if the paper is as pro-rudd as you say it is, it must have right wing sympathies, just as Rudd's labor party does.
So I'll correct myself. The Age leans to the right.
Liverpool said:
Can you point out how 'terrorists' are being treated differently to the rest of us?
I am very interested to know what your personal course of action would consist of. I REALLY can't see what you are suggesting. The only way I can interpret your logic is that you would suggest execution, torture and murdering of civilians as a means to an end. You may want to live in a society where your government espouses such ideals, but I am thankful that I don't (I use to be able to say that with a lot more conviction....ie. that I don't live in such a society).
As for your example of hypocrisy, all I can say is: "I do not think that word means what you think it means".
Again, I come back to my point of the tainted process. It would have been all well and good if Hicks had been afforded a fair trial and had pleaded guilty. Again, you point to that guilty plea as exactly that without addressing the concerns about the process that led to the plea. If David Hicks was guilty of a crime, I would have no hesitation in supporting the appropriate sentence.
As for the 12 year old beheading, it is a sad reflection on the state of the world, but I fail to see how that will colour my view. What is your suggested course of action? Kill the animals because look at what they do? That could be said for most human cultures throughout the course of history. You should study it. Your reactions and polarisation of the situation are mirrored in many conflicts of the past and doomed to failure if history repeats itself (which it seems to always do).
I think you miss the point Livers. You cannot suspend human rights at will. Perhaps it will be yourself, a friend or family member that will suffer in the future when the government decides to suspend the rights of individual. These rights protect ALL of us and it appears that it is you that take them for granted. You complain about the actions of these other cultures (I should say individuals within these cultures) and what you fail to understand is that you would rather live in such a culture where personal liberties and freedoms are nowhere near as common. Do you realise this?
You said in another post that 'thats war', yet you contradict yourself here. There are international laws that deal with war crimes. We should let those deal with war criminals. Again, it seems that you are suggesting we should resort to tactics that you clearly despise. It is a childlike and ridiculous response to a problem.
Perhaps the lack of a FAIR TRIAL and DUE PROCESS should also be on your list.
Yes, if a family member of mine was ever incarcerated for years without a trial and not afforded the basic rights of every other citizen in this country, I would oh so grateful to our government.
At no time have I said treat terrorists differently - treat them with the full force of the law. Have a due process that allows their innocence or guilt to be proven.
Your attitude of - an eye for an eye - has been proven down through history to be an antagonist to more violence, death and blood spilling. Which also begs the question do you believe in Capital Punishment for crimes commited in Victoria or even the whole of Australia?
I believe as a civilized society we should lead the way in showing the world this is how a fair law with due process can place all citizens of the world at the same level.
Something the Yanks do not want - because the heavily biased Jewish population within the USA does not want the US Government to recognise the claims of the Arab states within the Middle East. And the Yanks addiction to oil is a further reason why they have an interest in the Middle East.
Be aware that the great American Worldwide Economic Empire is going to lose its place as the leading economy in the world within the next decade and a half. China will be the economy that the world will operate from - it is already happening with the Shanghai Stock Exchange taking the lead in stock market moves around the world. The Yanks are in for a rude shock and if Australia does not link itself to the Chinese - like Mr Howard is endevoring to do with a Free Trade Agreement with Beijing - then we will go the same way as the Yanks - downward.
We are in an excellent geographical position for the next phase of economic wealth around the world - Asia and the Sub-Continent virtually on our door step. But we must lead the way in humane rights and show that a fair and just law with correct due processes can govern all people and lead to economic prosperity to those who wish to work.
Maybe I am an idealist - but that is the world I would like my kids to grow up in.
Your attitude of - an eye for an eye - has been proven down through history to be an antagonist to more violence, death and blood spilling. Which also begs the question do you believe in Capital Punishment for crimes commited in Victoria or even the whole of Australia?
I believe as a civilized society we should lead the way in showing the world this is how a fair law with due process can place all citizens of the world at the same level.
Something the Yanks do not want - because the heavily biased Jewish population within the USA does not want the US Government to recognise the claims of the Arab states within the Middle East. And the Yanks addiction to oil is a further reason why they have an interest in the Middle East.
Be aware that the great American Worldwide Economic Empire is going to lose its place as the leading economy in the world within the next decade and a half. China will be the economy that the world will operate from - it is already happening with the Shanghai Stock Exchange taking the lead in stock market moves around the world. The Yanks are in for a rude shock and if Australia does not link itself to the Chinese - like Mr Howard is endevoring to do with a Free Trade Agreement with Beijing - then we will go the same way as the Yanks - downward.
We are in an excellent geographical position for the next phase of economic wealth around the world - Asia and the Sub-Continent virtually on our door step. But we must lead the way in humane rights and show that a fair and just law with correct due processes can govern all people and lead to economic prosperity to those who wish to work.
Maybe I am an idealist - but that is the world I would like my kids to grow up in.
