Cricket

[Sintiger]

Not sure why the behaviour of English crowds seems to have come as a surprise.
Their yobbos are at least as good as ours.
My feeling is that in a way the fact that it happened probably helped them in the run chase. I don’t think Stokes would have played that innings unless he was super fired up.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

I sometimes wonder if the cultural clash that can arise between England and Australia in cricket comes from the different social dynamics of the game in the two respective countries.

In England cricket has always seemed a bit of a middle to upper class niche. There are some exceptions to this, where it's an 'every man's' game in certain regional pockets. And there of course have been English international players from working class roots (Freddy Flintoff being a northern working class lad for instance). But it really does have a different feel to the game in Australia, where it's been a national unifying past time across all social classes. And thus, the Australian team has always seemed to me, to be made up of players far more across the social spectrum. Dave Warner from housing commission Matraville in Sydney's south east. Ponting from housing commission in the working class northern suburbs of Launceston ended up captaining the country. Some recent examples.

Thus, the ritualised gentleman's code seems to be more heavily emphasised in the English context, due to the middle to upper class undertones.

And you see remnants of this within England itself. Today on an English football (soccer) banter site on social media, the contributors seem to be more of a working class English dynamic (football/soccer being more of a working class pursuit in England). They were having a good laugh at the English cricket team losing. Like it's a way to stick it to the class enemy. An English mate at work told me he's observed similar when the English Rugby team performs poorly. The working class lads love having a laugh and taking the *smile* as a way to give the middle finger to the class enemy. Not that they really care about cricket or would actually be secretly barracking for the opposition - but when you think about it, a working class Essex lad or Scouser would have more socially in common with a Dave Warner or Ricky Ponting than most of the English cricket team, despite the fact they come from thousands of KMs away.

 

[DavidSSS]

Can't play Bazball on a pitch that swings n seams, gotta have a pitch that plays straight and even.

I think this is a good point, the wickets for the first 2 tests were a joke. A test wicket should give some chance to the bowlers and certainly shouldn't be that benign on the last day. I was wondering why the Australian bowlers were sending down so many short balls, and I figure there has to be a reason. Yes, cricketers can be pretty dumb a times, but the whole team and their support staff too? Don't think so.

The controversy over the Starc catch (that was far more of an interpretation of the rules, but the ball was clearly grounded and it was arguable whether he had completed the catch before the ball touched the ground - I've seen a few catches over the years where the player has contorted themselves to prevent such a situation) and the Bairstow dismissal (more clear cut) is a sideshow. The real controversy in this series is the wickets which are just ridiculous, like something in Pakistan.

DS

 

[tigersnake]

I sometimes wonder if the cultural clash that can arise between England and Australia in cricket comes from the different social dynamics of the game in the two respective countries.

In England cricket has always seemed a bit of a middle to upper class niche. There are some exceptions to this, where it's an 'every man's' game in certain regional pockets. And there of course have been English international players from working class roots (Freddy Flintoff being a northern working class lad for instance). But it really does have a different feel to the game in Australia, where it's been a national unifying past time across all social classes. And thus, the Australian team has always seemed to me, to be made up of players far more across the social spectrum. Dave Warner from housing commission Matraville in Sydney's south east. Ponting from housing commission in the working class northern suburbs of Launceston ended up captaining the country. Some recent examples.

Thus, the ritualised gentleman's code seems to be more heavily emphasised in the English context, due to the middle to upper class undertones.

And you see remnants of this within England itself. Today on an English football (soccer) banter site on social media, the contributors seem to be more of a working class English dynamic (football/soccer being more of a working class pursuit in England). They were having a good laugh at the English cricket team losing. Like it's a way to stick it to the class enemy. An English mate at work told me he's observed similar when the English Rugby team performs poorly. The working class lads love having a laugh and taking the *smile* as a way to give the middle finger to the class enemy. Not that they really care about cricket or would actually be secretly barracking for the opposition - but when you think about it, a working class Essex lad or Merseysider would have more socially in common with a Dave Warner or Ricky Ponting than most of the English cricket team, despite the fact they come from thousands of KMs away.

you make some good points, but its more complex. Some counties are all-in on cricket, well known some northern counties, Yorkshire being the posterboy, some are split along class lines as you say and its a game for the wealthy, some are a mix. I lived in suffolk for a year as a kid, went to a state school, cricket-mad.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

you make some good points, but its more complex. Some counties are all-in on cricket, well known some northern counties, Yorkshire being the posterboy, some are split along class lines as you say and its a game for the wealthy, some are a mix. I lived in suffolk for a year as a kid, went to a state school, cricket-mad.

For sure, not exclusively so. I did try and qualify somewhat what you are discussing in my original post - admittedly I didn’t expand enough. Just the social dynamics over all in the game seem to be weighted quite differently in Australia than England.

Plus, it just never seemed to be as much of a national unifying past time in England, in quite the same way it has been so in Australia. Until the most recent generation, the phenomenal amount of street, park, beach and playground cricket played in Australia for recreation. It cannot be understated how much those countless hours kids spend playing unorganised forms of sport add to their skill set and give them a huge head start when it comes to organised forms of participation. England’s masses never really embraced the game in quite the same way.

Might also go some way to explaining why, particularly post war, Australia has generally been the stronger cricketing nation of the two, despite the smaller population size (of course other linked dynamics like weather, lifestyle and playing conditions also come into it).

 

[leon]

I'm not sure Jimmy's done, before this series he's been bowling really well, these are his stats since 2014. Its more to do with the wicket, neither wicket so far as enabled him to swing the ball. The 1st 2 tests he played this year, he got 10/168 so around 17's but has struggled on the 2 wickets we have provided so far in the Ashes.

View attachment 19830

Firstly he has had two pitches prepared to Stokes and McCullum's instructions, so he cannot complain. It's certainly not intended to be favorable to Aust. Secondly, swing is created by the overhead atmosphere, as distinct to seam which is from the wicket. As England had all the favorable atmospheric conditions at Lord's, batting in the sunshine while we copped the heavily overcast skies at times kept on in very poor light ... because the lights were switched on! Not convinced that is so conducive to good seeing conditions at ground level to bowlers with a dark Dukes ball coming in at 85kmh, in the case of Tongue at least?
Again, he cannot complain. But from my POV, delighted if England keep selecting both Jimmy and Johnny.

 

[Tigers of Old]

My goodness this may be these best yet. Absolutely hysterical.

The spirit of cricket was murdered in cold blood by sunburnt thugs - and the game might never recover

It's often said that to win a Test match, you need to take 20 wickets. At Lord's in 2023, Australia proved that this is…

www.theroar.com.au

 

[tigersnake]

For sure, not exclusively so. I did try and qualify somewhat what you are discussing in my original post - admittedly I didn’t expand enough. Just the social dynamics over all in the game seem to be weighted quite differently in Australia than England.

Plus, it just never seemed to be as much of a national unifying past time in England, in quite the same way it has been so in Australia. Until the last generation, the phenomenal amount of street, park, beach and playground cricket played in Australia for recreation. It cannot be understated how much those countless hours kids spend playing unorganised forms of sport add to their skill set and give them a huge head start when it comes to organised forms of participation. England’s masses never really embraced the game in quite the same way.

Might also go some way to explaining why, particularly post war, Australia has generally been the stronger cricketing nation of the two, despite the smaller population size (of course other linked dynamics like weather, lifestyle and playing conditions also come into it).

for sure. Purely anecdotal and tiny sample size of 1, but here I was your bog average cricketer, in England I was pretty good. We have a smaller pop but more people play, they have a much bigger pop but less play.

 

[tigerdell]

I was actually quite embarrassed by this. I don't see why Stokes needed this treatment.

He didn't agree with what Carey did, but he was reserved in expressing his opinion and I thought handled himself admirably given the obvious disappointment he felt.

Great cricketer who deserves much more respect than this IMO.

I thought he was pretty unclassy in the end of match interview.
(Though Atherton didnt give him a good lead in)
No congrats to the winning team, no well played, no we were beaten by the better team on the day.

I thought his positivity about winning the next 3 was great. Good on him for looking forward and aiming to win the series.

But how about some respect for the opposition?
And what he said about the Bairstow dismissal was a veiled swipe at Cummins - i wouldna let it happen cos spirit of the game.

The crowd was loudly booing.
He could have stood up and lead the way.
Nah. Think he missed it

 

[leon]

Hypocrisy goes both ways though Leon.

Broad didn't walk when he nicked behind and was lambasted in Australia for the "spirit of the game", enough so that he was booed constantly 2 years later when he returned to Australia and still to this day, many Australian's won't let it go, even though it is the umpires job to give him out.

Yet now "spirit of the game" doesn't matter because Australia benefited. Its 1 thing that both sides of shown, they are both hypocrites, but don't make out like it only goes one way.

Nah, don't accept any of that. Broad was clearly out. He smashed it to first slip and evidence proved it - he has even admitted it. How did the umpire not give it out in your opinion BTW. It was another blatant cheat like the non-LBW decision not given to Lyon which was later shown to be out on all criteria, but we had wasted our last review. So how was that not given out by the umpire too IYO? Any trend there apparent?

I loathe Broad - he's a pantomime buffoon and proved it again after Bairstow got stumped. Flog of the highest order due to his utter hypocrisy - a blatant cheat with no scruples whatsoever. Best ignored as much as possible but that lambasting fully earned.

Really not sure what you are going on about "spirit of the game" re Australians. Bairstow stumped because he walked out of his crease when the ball was live. Nothing to do with any nebulous, waffly concept that is invoked by England only when it suits their biased causes. Go back and read Cummins post-match comments - despite the fury at the denied Starc catch through some weird rule invocation never seen before (McGrath put it well), they accepted and abided by this strange ruling of 'out' just as Bairstow was out. Umpires decision in both cases, or read responses of 2 ex-Eng captains - Atherton and Hussein.

One side that are clear hypocrites. Even old duffer Boycott. Not seeing any incongruity with all the instances of same actions, multiple same/similar dismissals by JB, McCubbin and Stokes as captain never objecting to anything to their advantage. Like the Starc catch, clearly taken in two hands well before he touched the turf. Never seen such a catch denied before. Funny how this umpiring interpretation suddenly just appears now - link back to Pgh 1. They are totally full of *smile*. Clearly umpiring is highly dubious in England. Root fell to ground taking the catch to dismiss Head, bracing his fall with his left hand holding the ball. But replay vision I've seen only gave one angle, with Head's body blocking the view of how his hand made contact with the ground. Funny about that.

Even your latest weasel Tory PM too, clearly must be struggling in the polls seeking to scavenge a few votes by appearing patriotic. Totally unnecessary for him to say anything.

Not to leave out those disgracefully arrogant members of Lords. They should never be allowed near our players again. Long Room BS must be cancelled. No 'Lords" ever allowed such dangerous physical access ever again to our players, who were abusive, bullying, threatening, allegedly tried tripping our players, acted like a Neanderthal mob of baiting, jeering, entitled pricks - so brave in their overwhelming numbers. Entrance to the ground should be altered to directly from change rooms only and with security protection.

Enjoyed Albo's retort. But overall, find the abusive English crowds intolerable and I'm genuinely concerned with possible violence directed at one of our team, incited by fools like those nominated above. If I had my way, I'd bring the world's best test team home now with the urn. The lousy, miserable, contemptuous English crowds don't deserve their presence.

End of rant ... for now.

 

[mrposhman]

Nah, don't accept any of that. Broad was clearly out. He smashed it to first slip and evidence proved it - he has even admitted it. How did the umpire not give it out in your opinion BTW. It was another blatant cheat like the non-LBW decision not given to Lyon which was later shown to be out on all criteria, but we had wasted our last review. So how was that not given out by the umpire too IYO? Any trend there apparent?

I loathe Broad - he's a pantomime buffoon and proved it again after Bairstow got stumped. Flog of the highest order due to his utter hypocrisy - a blatant cheat with no scruples whatsoever. Best ignored as much as possible but that lambasting fully earned.

Really not sure what you are going on about "spirit of the game" re Australians. Bairstow stumped because he walked out of his crease when the ball was live. Nothing to do with any nebulous, waffly concept that is invoked by England only when it suits their biased causes. Go back and read Cummins post-match comments - despite the fury at the denied Starc catch through some weird rule invocation never seen before (McGrath put it well), they accepted and abided by this strange ruling of 'out' just as Bairstow was out. Umpires decision in both cases, or read responses of 2 ex-Eng captains - Atherton and Hussein.

One side that are clear hypocrites. Even old duffer Boycott. Not seeing any incongruity with all the instances of same actions, multiple same/similar dismissals by JB, McCubbin and Stokes as captain never objecting to anything to their advantage. Like the Starc catch, clearly taken in two hands well before he touched the turf. Never seen such a catch denied before. Funny how this umpiring interpretation suddenly just appears now - link back to Pgh 1. They are totally full of *smile*. Clearly umpiring is highly dubious in England. Root fell to ground taking the catch to dismiss Head, bracing his fall with his left hand holding the ball. But replay vision I've seen only gave one angle, with Head's body blocking the view of how his hand made contact with the ground. Funny about that.

Even your latest weasel Tory PM too, clearly must be struggling in the polls seeking to scavenge a few votes by appearing patriotic. Totally unnecessary for him to say anything.

Not to leave out those disgracefully arrogant members of Lords. They should never be allowed near our players again. Long Room BS must be cancelled. No 'Lords" ever allowed such dangerous physical access ever again to our players, who were abusive, bullying, threatening, allegedly tried tripping our players, acted like a Neanderthal mob of baiting, jeering, entitled pricks - so brave in their overwhelming numbers. Entrance to the ground should be altered to directly from change rooms only and with security protection.

Enjoyed Albo's retort. But overall, find the abusive English crowds intolerable and I'm genuinely concerned with possible violence directed at one of our team, incited by fools like those nominated above. If I had my way, I'd bring the world's best test team home now with the urn. The lousy, miserable, contemptuous English crowds don't deserve their presence.

End of rant ... for now.

You say "spirit of the game" is only dreamt up and used by the english, but was the reason why so many Aussies got so under the collar by Broad. He stayed his ground until the umpire put the finger up, the umpire made a mistake. Broad doesn't need to walk, but that didn't stop the aussie crowds booing him, and clearly all these years later you are still hot under the collar about it, but why should Broad have walked?? Oh "spirit of the game" was what was used.

Oh right, so its an English concept is it? The fact that you can't see this hypocrisy is pure Leon IMO. You only seem to see the wrong in others and never in yourself.

Anyway, way too much time has been wasted on this 1 decision. Need the 3rd test to start so everyone can move on and watch something new with cricket soon enough.

 

[leon]

I was actually quite embarrassed by this. I don't see why Stokes needed this treatment.

He didn't agree with what Carey did, but he was reserved in expressing his opinion and I thought handled himself admirably given the obvious disappointment he felt.

Great cricketer who deserves much more respect than this IMO.

BS. Agree can play the game but want to see the Aussie bowlers never feed his strengths so dumbly ever again. As for his character, still reserving judgement since his thuggery outburst years ago because I'm still not clear on how much he was culpable, but many believe he got off very lightly.

But has he ever once congratulated the Australian team for their two wins? Any acknowledgement of their defeating his team twice now. No, don't think so. Just how they shoulda/coulda/gunna/next time along with 'moral victories'. Whatever. Do they go in the record book BTW?

I just see a sore loser who has got a lot wrong along with his arrogant hypocrite of a coach. But they've really won ... so that must explain the refusal to give Australia any credit.

I think you need to take off those Union Jack novelty glasses

 

[leon]

You say "spirit of the game" is only dreamt up and used by the english, but was the reason why so many Aussies got so under the collar by Broad. He stayed his ground until the umpire put the finger up, the umpire made a mistake. Broad doesn't need to walk, but that didn't stop the aussie crowds booing him, and clearly all these years later you are still hot under the collar about it, but why should Broad have walked?? Oh "spirit of the game" was what was used.

Oh right, so its an English concept is it? The fact that you can't see this hypocrisy is pure Leon IMO. You only seem to see the wrong in others and never in yourself.

Anyway, way too much time has been wasted on this 1 decision. Need the 3rd test to start so everyone can move on and watch something new with cricket soon enough.

Nah. You've missed my drift again. The "spirit of the game" has been BS ever since Jardine created and employed bodyline, remember. Heard Strauss justifying the re-introduction of it in this test where something like 98% of their bowling was short.

I'm calling out their blatant, ruthless cheating and suspect them of corrupting umpires too. Can't see how those decisions can be explained any other way.

You should make yourself more familiar with that latest report into English cricket. It's all so easy for the world to see still. They're even racist to our mostly white Australian cricketers because they are led to believe they are class-superior; see their players personified by Broad. See and hear their crowds. Such entitlement that they actually believe they can win any way they like with little need to be accountable.

Really, what are you talking about regarding me? I only see the wrong in other?! What rot! You know virtually nothing about me. But I can tell you that I am not playing cricket in these tests in your country. Such a petty personal attack - try to focus on realities.

 

[MD Jazz]

Nah, don't accept any of that. Broad was clearly out. He smashed it to first slip and evidence proved it - he has even admitted it. How did the umpire not give it out in your opinion BTW. It was another blatant cheat like the non-LBW decision not given to Lyon which was later shown to be out on all criteria, but we had wasted our last review. So how was that not given out by the umpire too IYO? Any trend there apparent?

I loathe Broad - he's a pantomime buffoon and proved it again after Bairstow got stumped. Flog of the highest order due to his utter hypocrisy - a blatant cheat with no scruples whatsoever. Best ignored as much as possible but that lambasting fully earned.

Really not sure what you are going on about "spirit of the game" re Australians. Bairstow stumped because he walked out of his crease when the ball was live. Nothing to do with any nebulous, waffly concept that is invoked by England only when it suits their biased causes. Go back and read Cummins post-match comments - despite the fury at the denied Starc catch through some weird rule invocation never seen before (McGrath put it well), they accepted and abided by this strange ruling of 'out' just as Bairstow was out. Umpires decision in both cases, or read responses of 2 ex-Eng captains - Atherton and Hussein.

One side that are clear hypocrites. Even old duffer Boycott. Not seeing any incongruity with all the instances of same actions, multiple same/similar dismissals by JB, McCubbin and Stokes as captain never objecting to anything to their advantage. Like the Starc catch, clearly taken in two hands well before he touched the turf. Never seen such a catch denied before. Funny how this umpiring interpretation suddenly just appears now - link back to Pgh 1. They are totally full of *smile*. Clearly umpiring is highly dubious in England. Root fell to ground taking the catch to dismiss Head, bracing his fall with his left hand holding the ball. But replay vision I've seen only gave one angle, with Head's body blocking the view of how his hand made contact with the ground. Funny about that.

Even your latest weasel Tory PM too, clearly must be struggling in the polls seeking to scavenge a few votes by appearing patriotic. Totally unnecessary for him to say anything.

Not to leave out those disgracefully arrogant members of Lords. They should never be allowed near our players again. Long Room BS must be cancelled. No 'Lords" ever allowed such dangerous physical access ever again to our players, who were abusive, bullying, threatening, allegedly tried tripping our players, acted like a Neanderthal mob of baiting, jeering, entitled pricks - so brave in their overwhelming numbers. Entrance to the ground should be altered to directly from change rooms only and with security protection.

Enjoyed Albo's retort. But overall, find the abusive English crowds intolerable and I'm genuinely concerned with possible violence directed at one of our team, incited by fools like those nominated above. If I had my way, I'd bring the world's best test team home now with the urn. The lousy, miserable, contemptuous English crowds don't deserve their presence.

End of rant ... for now.

Maybe your most ridiculous post ever leon.

 

[tigerman]

Can't play Bazball on a pitch that swings n seams, gotta have a pitch that plays straight and even.

Good on England for playing entertaining cricket with the willow, they've said that they don't mind losing the occasional test playing Bazball.
Not sure that they would won't to lose the Ashes playing that way though, especially when they haven't needed "straight and even" wickets on Australia last five tours over there.

 

[Brodders17]

You say "spirit of the game" is only dreamt up and used by the english, but was the reason why so many Aussies got so under the collar by Broad. He stayed his ground until the umpire put the finger up, the umpire made a mistake. Broad doesn't need to walk, but that didn't stop the aussie crowds booing him, and clearly all these years later you are still hot under the collar about it, but why should Broad have walked?? Oh "spirit of the game" was what was used.

I reckon Broad is boo'ed cos he comes across a wanker. His decision not to walk just gives the ferals an excuse. If it was Pope say, no one would remember.

 

[mrposhman]

I reckon Broad is boo'ed cos he comes across a wanker. His decision not to walk just gives the ferals an excuse. If it was Pope say, no one would remember.

Yet it only started when he didn't walk.

 

[mrposhman]

Nah. You've missed my drift again. The "spirit of the game" has been BS ever since Jardine created and employed bodyline, remember. Heard Strauss justifying the re-introduction of it in this test where something like 98% of their bowling was short.

I'm calling out their blatant, ruthless cheating and suspect them of corrupting umpires too. Can't see how those decisions can be explained any other way.

You should make yourself more familiar with that latest report into English cricket. It's all so easy for the world to see still. They're even racist to our mostly white Australian cricketers because they are led to believe they are class-superior; see their players personified by Broad. See and hear their crowds. Such entitlement that they actually believe they can win any way they like with little need to be accountable.

Really, what are you talking about regarding me? I only see the wrong in other?! What rot! You know virtually nothing about me. But I can tell you that I am not playing cricket in these tests in your country. Such a petty personal attack - try to focus on realities.

You need a tin hat, corrupting umpires etc. Are you serious?

 

[TrialByVideo]

Just watched Joe Root interviewed in lead up for the 3rd test.
Gee the old country are really boxing themselves into a corner with the moral high ground.
I take it now that any slightly contentious dismissal on their part will be scrutinised to the enth degree and they won't have a choice but to withdraw anything that isn't within the spirit of the game.
Maybe we should have our batsmen leave their crease straight after the last ball of each over.... then let's see what happens next!
Actually, if Warner survives Broads first over, I won't be surprised if he does it.
I'm guessing no attempt at a stumping from Bairstow, hence no appeal from Broad.
That's the spirit!

 

[tigersnake]

The hits keep coming, to borrow Lalor's line. Bairstow interview after the Patel stumping he refers to an earlier one by Prior to stump Morkel at LORDS, crowd cheered, funny that. Also says in the interview, when asked how the batsman would feel:

"It’s within the rules of the game and that’s how it is".

Looking at both the JB and Prior ones, the 'gaining advantage' is well and truly out the window.

I still can't believe the 'we wouldn't have done it' bulldust. Its Trump-esque.