Coronavirus

[lamb22]

Thats true, much like soldiers that go to war can get shot and can die. Doesn't mean they don't wear their protective equipment though.

Exactly the same argument as Covid. We have protective equipment (vaccines) that can maybe save your life, why would you not take it. The argument is, "well I could get shot and still survive", yes thats true, but wearing your protective equipment gives your a GREATER chance of survival.

Pete's post was not accurate. I have let people slide on spouting personal opinion as fact. I was not arguing on the merits of vaccination. I am fully vaccinated.

However if we are going to be fully accurate vaccination is not helpful in some individuals (immunocompromised) or may not be advisable on a risk/reward for some demographics. Accordingly the quicker we get to herd immunity the better and that includes a robust population vaccination level.

 

[eZyT]

Pete's post was not accurate. I have let people slide on spouting personal opinion as fact. I was not arguing on the merits of vaccination. I am fully vaccinated.

However if we are going to be fully accurate vaccination is not helpful in some individuals (immunocompromised) or may not be advisable on a risk/reward for some demographics. Accordingly the quicker we get to herd immunity the better and that includes a robust population vaccination level.

Out of interest, what are you actually saying lambo?

it reads a bit like a description of a bush dance

 

[lamb22]

So it turns out you are an anti-vaxxer. Interesting since a few posts back you told us to get vaccinated - Ivermectin was merely a useful therapeutic and supplement to vaccination. Remember that?

I guess if you go far enough down the rabbit hole you reach a point where it's impossible to turn around, you just have to keep going deeper.

You are right - science is never static, so if Ivermectin is proven clinically useful in treating Covid great, I will happily acknowledge that and line up for my dose, if my doctor prescribes it.

Thing is though, most of what you propose is not related to science. It's highly political statements about big Pharma lies, Fauci conspiring with the Chinese, and medical researchers hiding the truth or being shills for big Pharma.

That's all ok by me, you can believe what you want. Its fun debating such easily disproved woo. But don't pretend you are arguing from a position of science.

Again I am gong to call you out. There is absolutely no science or data in your response. You have not addressed any issues and made an absurd claim that I am an anti vaxxer. Presumably because I have stated three facts you cannot argue against. Please respond as to whether you have data that disproves the facts I cited. If you argue from incorrect data as you often do you are unlikely to get to a correct outcome.

Again you dissemble and bring in your red herrings. Read your post again. 100 % evasion and why? Because you don't have either the ability or character to have a data driven discussion.

If you want to debate the science then debate it. If not you forfeit the claim "you are following the science"

 

[AngryAnt]

I just reposted this because it is classic Angry Ant.

You misunderstood, I posted the "I do my own research" line as a form of self-deprecation as I'm pretty much the only bloke here stupid enough to attempt to rebut most of your statements.

Most here have better things to do with their time I guess.

 

[lamb22]

Out of interest, what are you actually saying lambo?

it reads a bit like a description of a bush dance

Second paragraph just says that some people don't get a benefit from vaccination (or the risk reward is an issue) so they get protected when we get to herd immunity and we get there when we have a high vaccination rate and/or a high natural immunity rate. So in effect I am implicitly encouraging those people who can get vaccinations safely and have not been previously infected to get vaccinated.

I keep talking about an Indian state Uttar Pradesh that has crushed delta with only about 5% of the population fully vaccinated at the time So presumably they have got there through natural immunity and their quite good other health measures including early treatment. They are ramping up vaccination now.

But this vaccination debate is really a first world argument. 44% of the worlds population has been vaccinated. Only 2% of the world's poorest have. So this get vaccinated thingy is really only hypothetical for them. They'd love to be getting some of the vaccines that are going off on the shelves of western countries. That's why any available therapies while they wait for a jab are so important.

 

[Sintiger]

I heard today some health workers express a view of anger at the unvaccinated. The point they are making is that the overwhelming majority of the COVID patients they are seeing in the hospitals are unvaccinated.
These extremely sick people come into hospital and expect to be treated and in the process are exposing the staff to increased risk of infection. Whilst hospitals are taking extraordinary steps to keep staff and other patients safe it is not 100%, it cannot be.
The group I heard discussing it have young unvaccinated children at home. It is hard to not have sympathy for that view
I even heard one view that there are people waiting for surgery who are being forced to wait because individuals choose to not get vaccinated and wondering whether that is really fair ?

Interesting questions

 

[lamb22]

You misunderstood, I posted the "I do my own research" line as a form of self-deprecation as I'm pretty much the only bloke here stupid enough to attempt to rebut most of your statements.

Most here have better things to do with their time I guess.

Where the hell is this research? Is it an anecdote from a guardian article" Or your stunning rebuttals that you don't watch old men on YouTube or data doesn't exist because it's presented by some one in an ill fitting suit.

You go out of your way to evade data. I thought it was because you were disingenuous but you are still pushing that barrow so maybe that's just the limits of your comprehension.

Do you actually understand the concept of arguing from first principles or critical thinking?

Once again please confirm that you accept the facts I presented or offer data in rebuttal. Stop your "look over there *smile*". Once we have an agreed set of facts and you can add your own (real data) the we can actually have a discussion which follows the science. If you do not want to do that, fine but you cannot make the claim that you are following the science

 

[MB78]

What are the 27 suburbs they’re targeting ?

All 27 listed here. Most of these areas have hubs close by handing out Moderna. So no excuses now.

SUBURBS REVEALED: Vaccine push for 27 Melbourne postcodes with lower than average jab coverage

More than two dozen postcodes across Melbourne still have less than 75 per cent first dose COVID-19 vaccination coverage, with these locations now flagged for a targeted push.

7news.com.au

 

[eZyT]

Second paragraph just says that some people don't get a benefit from vaccination (or the risk reward is an issue) so they get protected when we get to herd immunity and we get there when we have a high vaccination rate and/or a high natural immunity rate. So in effect I am implicitly encouraging those people who can get vaccinations safely and have not been previously infected to get vaccinated.

I keep talking about an Indian state Uttar Pradesh that has crushed delta with only about 5% of the population fully vaccinated at the time So presumably they have got there through natural immunity and their quite good other health measures including early treatment. They are ramping up vaccination now.

But this vaccination debate is really a first world argument. 44% of the worlds population has been vaccinated. Only 2% of the world's poorest have. So this get vaccinated thingy is really only hypothetical for them. They'd love to be getting some of the vaccines that are going off on the shelves of western countries. That's why any available therapies while they wait for a jab are so important.

Herd immunity seems reasonable to me,

provided the majority of that population understand and are prepared to accept that;

1. you'll probably need to build a shrine to the fallen doctors and the nurses;

2. undertakers will drive coastal property prices up; and

3. Greeting card companies will be left with a lot of diamond wedding anniversary stock.

then yeah, by all means, let her rip.

 

[eZyT]

double

 

[eZyT]

I heard today some health workers express a view of anger at the unvaccinated. The point they are making is that the overwhelming majority of the COVID patients they are seeing in the hospitals are unvaccinated.
These extremely sick people come into hospital and expect to be treated and in the process are exposing the staff to increased risk of infection. Whilst hospitals are taking extraordinary steps to keep staff and other patients safe it is not 100%, it cannot be.
The group I heard discussing it have young unvaccinated children at home. It is hard to not have sympathy for that view
I even heard one view that there are people waiting for surgery who are being forced to wait because individuals choose to not get vaccinated and wondering whether that is really fair ?

Interesting questions

I've been waiting for some numbers surrounding the effect of vaccination on transmission.

today, Qld CHO said unvaccinated are 4 times more likely to give someone else Covid than unvaccinated.

Im a pretty quantitative kind of bloke,

so I like this number.

It allows me to quantify how big of a *smile* a deliberately unvaccinated person is.

e.g a bit of a *smile* before the pandemic, now unvaccinated, is 4 bits of a *smile*.

and it follows, that a complete *smile*, now unvaccinated, is now a complete *smile* x 4

 

[eZyT]

double

 

[lamb22]

Herd immunity seems reasonable to me,

provided the population understand and are prepared to accept that;

1. you'll probably need to build a shrine to the fallen doctors and the nurses;

2. undertakers will drive coastal property prices up; and

3. Greeting card companies will be left with a lot of diamond wedding anniversary stock.

then yeah, by all means, let her rip.

I think you are suggesting getting to herd immunity is only via natural infection as opposed to via vaccination (which in fact is orthodox public policy) plus natural infection. The strategy was that the virus runs out of hosts and disappears. Unfortunately most governments having given up on that strategy and it looks like the virus is endemic so the vulnerable will continue to be susceptible.

 

[MB78]

Great numbers for us yesterday with a record amount of second doses. Hopefully this continues for the rest and the week.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1445214973261594624

 

[22nd Man]

GF being blamed again for surge .... second wave from the initial infections.

Never thought Victorians love for the game would prove to be a death sentence.

 

[lamb22]

Yes...these are the very old and frail ie 90 year olds or those with very serious co morbidities ie cancer or chemotherapy.
No arguement that some will not be protected despite full vaccination.
Otherwise healthy people are very very unlikely to become significantly ill.
Whether vaccination prevents infectivity to others is yet to be determined. It certainly does with most other vaccines and my money is that it does with covid too. Only time will tell.
Still...my point is that it is irrelevant that vaccines are made by pharmaceutical companies or come from say fish eggs.
The source of the supply is in no way relevant to the choice to vaccinate or not.
I understand that Lamby has his own views and is perfectly entitled to them. They are not wacky. But I don't share them.

Thanks Pete. I think all vaccines are made by pharmaceutical companies, at least initially.

 

[22nd Man]

Beyond two or three North and Western LGA’s, why is there such a low vax rate in the Melbourne, Yarra, Port Phillip and to a lesser extent, Stonnington LGA’s ?

Over half of daily cases are associated with under 30’s.

Having lived and worked in three of those four LGA’s and knowing the demographics pretty well, I suspect we are going to eventually start seeing inner city under 30’s the primary cohort of infections.

Businesses in these areas - particularly in the Melbourne LGA - have been complaining vociferously about lockdowns, restrictions, losing their business etc for quite some time. Maybe they should apply some equal promotional energy into getting people in their local area vaccinated because if they become young, hotbeds for infection, then people will be reluctant to venture back into the CBD, Richmond, Fitzroy, Carlton, Port etc and their businesses will sink regardless when lockdowns and restrictions begin to get lifted.

I think Melbourne is low because a large number of the people they think live there are gone - students back to their home country and probably ST work visa holders too.
The numerator is pretty easy - doses - but the denominator is some population (estimate) from how long ago? Overseas Students and incoming short term visa holders are a substantial proportion of City of Melb ..... and for those still there have all the language/ cultural factors that may or may not be impacting north and west.
To a lesser extent same might be happening in Monash which is lowest on middle E/SE suburbs... many homes are vacant as students from Deakin, Monash Uni and Chinese families abandoned Melb last year or were caught in China when Borders closed in Feb 2020.

 

[RoarEmotion]

I keep talking about an Indian state Uttar Pradesh that has crushed delta with only about 5% of the population fully vaccinated at the time So presumably they have got there through natural immunity and their quite good other health measures including early treatment. They are ramping up vaccination now.

Excess death data says UP has fudged their numbers massively. I have a few Indian colleagues with family back home who verbally confirmed to me the devastation on the ground. I’d be very wary of drawing conclusions on UP performance.

Death Count In 24 UP Districts 43 Times More Than Official Covid-19 Toll

Excess deaths in UP districts with highest official caseload were between 10 to 335 times higher than the government’s Covid-19 death toll over nine months to 31 March 2021, we found after analysing mortality data, obtained under the right-to-information law.

article-14.com

 

[MD Jazz]

I don't understand why the gov't didn't engage key stakeholders (industry groups/employer groups/unions) in the vaccination discussion earlier. Surely the types of mandates that have occurred should have been discussed and agreed upon rather than imposed with the seeming lack of collaboration & haste that has occurred? Understand we didn't have the supply but that shouldn't have kept the discussions from occurring.

Perhaps if Dan spent less time posturing for the camera and more time performing the task he was elected for we wouldn't have had the recent troubles, at least to the extent we have seen?

Lack of leadership isn't confined to federal politics.

 

[RoarEmotion]

1. Vaccines are a very effective tool but not all vaccines are created equal.
2. Natural immunity provides a robust defence against re-infection.
3. Leaving aside issues of efficacy, Ivermectin is a much safer drug than the covid vaccines.

1 sure
2 makes sense to me - haven’t seen the studies but both a vaccine and an infection generate an immune response so could well be true. I’d expect being infected (if you survive) to be better. There are challenge trials being conducted now in UK. https://www.economist.com/science-a...liberately-infecting-volunteers-with-covid-19. If we’d done these from the start on young people we may have saved millions but is an ethical obstacle the medical profession has no way to overcome.
3. Too much of anything is a poison (including water). I don’t know the mort level of properly administered invermectin vs vaccine but wouldn’t be surprised if invermectin is safer. The main issue has been people ODing / using the horse version etc.

my general stick is wanting a healthy debate to continue. I’d still challenge you to read a little bit more of what you send through before sending it. But admire your persistence despite some *smile* giving in each direction.