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Coronavirus

People do realise it was Morrison & the Federal Government who wanted Victoria to open up faster. State opposition wanted that too. Andrews was taking a very conservative approach because he was worried this would happen. Many seem to have conveniently forgotten that fact.

So now its golfers, morrison, state opposition, federal gov't......…..(add your own disliked organistaion/group).....that have forced Dan (who despite bowing to pressure in this instance is usually a strong hand at the till) which in turn has led to a spike in cases...………...that no other state (that in the main had less onerous restrictions and earlier openings than VIC) have incurred...…..

Seriously, many argue that LTRTR is misusing statistics trying to link the spike to BLM protests yet they use no evidence to link the spike to golfers, federal gov't etc.

Australia wide new cases since restrictions eased on 2nd June-
VIC - 227
NSW - 65
SA - None
TAS - None
ACT - None
WA - 6
QLD - 5

NSW despite having the ruby princess debacle and starting from a more difficult position seem to have managed the situation better. Despite having less onerous visiting restrictions, schools open earlier etc.

There is little evidence to argue the spike is related to the BLM protest but it sure as *smile* is not the federal gov'ts fault either.
 
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Australia wide new cases since restrictions eased on 2nd June-
VIC - 227
NSW - 65
SA - None
TAS - None
ACT - None
WA - 6
QLD - 5

Something has undoubtedly gone amiss in this state. There might be a point to be developed about the most diverse state being the least united in purpose, but I don't want to get into any more arguments.
 
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What is the point of that graph?
The BLM protests were criticised for happening during a pandemic, not the right time.
The Indigenous rallies on Australia Day are criticised for happening on our national day - not the right day.
Climate change protests are criticised as school students shouldn't take time off school to protest against screwing up the planet - not the right time.

There is zero correlation between BLM protests during a pandemic and indigenour rallies on Australia Day. Zero. Or the kids protesting climate change during school hours.

If the protest during the pandemic was by right wing gun toting numpties (like in the States) you would be all over it.
 
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Something has undoubtedly gone amiss in this state. There might be a point to be developed about the most diverse state being the least united in purpose, but I don't want to get into any more arguments.

Why is it that someone always has to be wrong? I don't get it. I'd hate to be a politician, retain restrictions for too long, its your fault, release restrictions too early, its your fault.

Lets look at the facts shall we.

EVERY state released restrictions pretty much at the same time
There were BLM's protests in every major capital in every state
When restrictions were released we were told that outbreaks would occur and we were well placed to deal with them
Vic is the only state currently with an outbreak, we are dealing with it with extra testing stations etc.

Isn't this EXACTLY what we were told was going to happen? I'm puzzled by some of the anger and resentment seen in this thread
 
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So now its golfers, morrison, state opposition, federal gov't......…..(add your own disliked organistaion/group).....that have forced Dan (who despite bowing to pressure in this instance is usually a strong hand at the till) which in turn has led to a spike in cases...………...that no other state (that in the main had less onerous restrictions and earlier openings than VIC) have incurred...…..

Seriously, many argue that LTRTR is misusing statistics trying to link the spike to BLM protests yet they use no evidence to link the spike to golfers, federal gov't etc.

Australia wide new cases since restrictions eased on 2nd June-
VIC - 227
NSW - 65
SA - None
TAS - None
ACT - None
WA - 6
QLD - 5

NSW despite having the ruby princess debacle and starting from a more difficult position seem to have managed the situation better. Despite having less onerous visiting restrictions, schools open earlier etc.

There is little evidence to argue the spike is related to the BLM protest but it sure as *smile* is not the federal gov'ts fault either.

the spike coincided with Essendon delivering false positives and Collingwood going unbeaten.

Surely we should be blaming it all on them?
 
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So why is it only VIC where this spike has happened? You have no evidence that spikes are caused fr4om eased restrictions yet you claim they are? Why is every other state not the same?

Oh, and crowds at shopping centres/bunnings etc have been large since restrictions first came in. They were large every weekend. Bunnings crowds are lower now than they were during restrictions.

You have no data to support your claims yet continue blaming restrictions easing for the spike. Why hasn't this happened in every state?

The protests clearly are not the source of the spike but neither can you blame the easing of restrictions, its disingenuous to go down that line.

I'm not claiming that shopping centers are causing these new cases. Just that the logic of blaming the protests is ridiculous considering the conditions of the protest were nowhere near as significant for spreading disease as the every day conditions of shopping centres. As I said before, more people, smaller area, indoors, longer period of time, more often. Neither has any evidence for causing the increased number of cases, but that's exactly the point. Singling out the protests is ridiculous.

However, there is evidence that relaxed restrictions have led to more people in households, leading to more community transmission. This is accounting for most of the new cases.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...sters-driving-its-spread-20200622-p55504.html

" Events such as large family gatherings, where social distance measures haven't been observed, could have also become "super-spreading" events, experts say.

The two biggest family clusters, in the north-western suburb of Keilor Downs, and in Coburg in the north, have infected residents across at least five suburbs so far and directly led to the temporary closures of four Melbourne schools.

The clusters account for at least 25 cases with family members in the Hume, Brimbank, Moreland and Cardinia municipalities.
The Coburg family cluster has been linked to at least 14 cases, including at least four primary school aged children and extended family members in Broadmeadows, Coburg and Pakenham.

The Keilor Downs cluster has been traced back to at least 13 cases with teenagers and children among those infected.

The catalyst for spread has been attributed to family gatherings where social distancing measures were not upheld, authorities say."


Large family gatherings have only been allowed since the relaxing of restrictions. We actually have evidence that large family gatherings, a direct results of relaxing restrictions, has led more community transmission.

This happened in our state because at no point did we ever have a situation where we were only getting cases of known origin. We should not have relaxed restrictions until we did. If you're asking why other states are different, well it's a bit of luck, a bit of population density, a bit of the fact that a lot of travellers come through melbourne, and mainly the fact that most other states were accounting for all cases prior to relaxing restrictions. Dan was trying to hold out until we were in the same boat, but eventually folded under federal, social, and political pressure. IMHO that was a failing on his part.

By the way, I said as much at the beginning of May, indicating this would happen.

You're making it out like there are no measures of when to open up.

There are. And we haven't reached them yet.

What we need is not necessarily to have zero new cases for a week (though that'd be great), but to have widespread testing and only find positives of known positive contacts.

This means there isn't undetected community transmission (depending on how widespread the testing is).

Here's the thing. We still have people popping up every day in Victoria and testing positive with no known positive contacts. It is still moving silently in our community. We still have no inherent immunity. We still have no effective antivirals. We still have no vaccine.

If we start opening up now, there is no reason why this wouldn't ramp up again. None.

If we can get our tracing, monitoring and testing levels to the point where we can actually effectively quarantine and isolate, then we can talk about opening up.

There's this odd sense of 'come on, surely we've been locked down long enough. It has to be better by now.'

It's like we think the virus will get bored and go away.

Nothing has changed. Not until we know where every case in the state came from. And there are two ways to do that. Proper testing and tracing, or getting our cases down to zero.

The frustrating thing is we are not far off.

But this is the exact opposite of near enough is good enough. Near enough is not enough.

And it wasn't.

The one hope is that maybe, maybe, our contact tracing and testing regime will be at a significant enough level to keep this in check. We will have been incredibly successful if that turns out to be the case.
 
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You've got to wonder how much lower that number would be if Dan held out for just 1 more week. I blame Peter V'landys
 
So I have a question, IF we cannot get a vaccine working, what do people think is Plan B?

It seems to me that at this point, we are trying to eradicate in Australia and in most states (bar VIC) are a long way down the road with that. If by the end of the year we eradicate in Australia, and no vaccine is forthcoming, what is Plan B as Plan A is clearly, reduce reduce reduce until a vaccine comes out, but what if 1 doesn't and Australia eradicates? Does anyone really think we can remain cut off from the rest of the world or do we reintroduce and go through the process of herd immunity at that time?
 
I'm not claiming that shopping centers are causing these new cases. Just that the logic of blaming the protests is ridiculous considering the conditions of the protest were nowhere near as significant for spreading disease as the every day conditions of shopping centres. As I said before, more people, smaller area, indoors, longer period of time, more often. Neither has any evidence for causing the increased number of cases, but that's exactly the point. Singling out the protests is ridiculous.

However, there is evidence that relaxed restrictions have led to more people in households, leading to more community transmission. This is accounting for most of the new cases.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...sters-driving-its-spread-20200622-p55504.html

" Events such as large family gatherings, where social distance measures haven't been observed, could have also become "super-spreading" events, experts say.

The two biggest family clusters, in the north-western suburb of Keilor Downs, and in Coburg in the north, have infected residents across at least five suburbs so far and directly led to the temporary closures of four Melbourne schools.

The clusters account for at least 25 cases with family members in the Hume, Brimbank, Moreland and Cardinia municipalities.
The Coburg family cluster has been linked to at least 14 cases, including at least four primary school aged children and extended family members in Broadmeadows, Coburg and Pakenham.

The Keilor Downs cluster has been traced back to at least 13 cases with teenagers and children among those infected.

The catalyst for spread has been attributed to family gatherings where social distancing measures were not upheld, authorities say."


Large family gatherings have only been allowed since the relaxing of restrictions. We actually have evidence that large family gatherings, a direct results of relaxing restrictions, has led more community transmission.

This happened in our state because at no point did we ever have a situation where we were only getting cases of known origin. We should not have relaxed restrictions until we did. If you're asking why other states are different, well it's a bit of luck, a bit of population density, a bit of the fact that a lot of travellers come through melbourne, and mainly the fact that most other states were accounting for all cases prior to relaxing restrictions. Dan was trying to hold out until we were in the same boat, but eventually folded under federal, social, and political pressure. IMHO that was a failing on his part.

I agree on the BLM protests. Clearly not them. But wasn't all the hysteria about golfers & shopping centres and schools opening & people wanting to go shopping and run businesses etc? It appears none of these are causing outbreaks here in VIC or anywhere else in Aust.

Some clusters are clearly from cedar meats and others from the quarantine hotels debacle.

The issue of large family gatherings likely has little to do with restrictions. I am aware of many Italian families continuing with their usual weekly family gatherings before, during, after restrictions. I imagine this was common place throughout the community both ethnic and otherwise. Of the cases they trace back to "large" family gatherings when did they occur and exactly how large were they? Were they in line with the restrictions of the day?

Anyway it appears we are getting a better picture on what are catalysts for spreading. Essentially stay away from prolonged, confined indoor gatherings.

Personally I am fine with the changes, going back to 5 visitors per household without reinstating the other restrictions suits me.
 
What is the point of that graph?


There is zero correlation between BLM protests during a pandemic and indigenour rallies on Australia Day. Zero. Or the kids protesting climate change during school hours.

If the protest during the pandemic was by right wing gun toting numpties (like in the States) you would be all over it.

The right wing gun toting numpties tended not to wear masks as they see COVID19 as a giant hoax to destroy their second amendment rights. Numbers were pretty small compared to BLM though. I saw those protests more as a sign of general idiocy and gun fetishisation than a genuine health risk
 
So I have a question, IF we cannot get a vaccine working, what do people think is Plan B?

It seems to me that at this point, we are trying to eradicate in Australia and in most states (bar VIC) are a long way down the road with that. If by the end of the year we eradicate in Australia, and no vaccine is forthcoming, what is Plan B as Plan A is clearly, reduce reduce reduce until a vaccine comes out, but what if 1 doesn't and Australia eradicates? Does anyone really think we can remain cut off from the rest of the world or do we reintroduce and go through the process of herd immunity at that time?

yeah, restricted travel, continued social distancing while opening up within Australia as much as possible for the economy and hope not too many oldies get infected, overload the health system and cark it. Won't be fun.

On the other hand at least employers will be more open to peeps working from home at least part time now, depending on type of occupation of course.
 
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So I have a question, IF we cannot get a vaccine working, what do people think is Plan B?


A reminder we've never developed a successful vaccine for a coronavirus..
The sceptic in me says that pharmaceutical companies will be more interested in developing anti-viral medications than a vaccine anyway. I see this as more likely.
 
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Some restrictions were eased on May 27, but there wasn't a spike until after the protest. A deadly cocktail, perhaps?

Anyway I really don't enjoy this type of debate despite perhaps giving the opposite impression. Happy to drop it and deal with the current situation which affects all of us.

Plane loads arriving from India from the 21st of May coincided with the spike.
 
The BLM protests were criticised for happening during a pandemic, not the right time.
The Indigenous rallies on Australia Day are criticised for happening on our national day - not the right day.
Climate change protests are criticised as school students shouldn't take time off school to protest against screwing up the planet - not the right time.

Let's face it, the right, along with the right wing cheer squad that is our media, just don't like civil society (ie: citizens) challenging their precious system designed to keep them rich and powerful at the expense of the rest of us.

DS
Gun massacre - not the right time to be discussing gun control.
 
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