Ben Cousins a Tiger (Merged)

[Jason King]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

According to sheehan, Wallace wants Benny and he reckons thats how it will go. sheehan is a *smile*, but still...

 

[Tigerbob]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Just because your the 57th person to post that doesn't mean that is all there is to it.

I still find it intriguing that all of Ben's backers can only keep going on about the short term and hear and now and are just happy to keep constantly repeating the same old...his a great trainer, elite player/brownlow medalist, can teach the kids. Yes...yes...yes...we keep hearing that.

I STILL haven't seen anyone explain to me how this will not negatively affect development and our side in 3 - 4 years.

I'd love to know how we are going to give an opportunity to Collins, Polo, Connors, maybe even Hislop or Thomson etc etc if they are playing well in the VFL. I've already named a 28yr old and 2 30+ yr olds who will be started in our side in Round 1 if healthy. Add Cotchin and Lids and you start to struggle to give anyone else opportunity if they deserve it.

I can see us sliding into the finals, everyone happy and high fiving each other...and then slowly click when it comes to list noinations at the end of 2009...

Oh...we haven't seen enough of Polo or Coglan to rule on them now, because they tore the VFL up but we couldn't force him into the side with guns like Cousins and Cotch and Lids there...Oh....Johnson, Cousins and Tuck will not be playing much longer...Cotch, Lids and Foley can't do it alone and now we don't have enough games in our nextgen...damn...

Then everyone will be baying for Cameron's head and we'll be right back to where we started. Prove me wrong, I am openminded and would be most appreciative if somone could. Yet most/nearly all, keep ducking this question.

I'm not being a wet blanket, I want to believe! ;D ;D ;D

More importantly though, I want what is best for the club longer term, not just for the next year or two.

Be gentle with me.

Ok i'll bite ;D

I was of the same opinion, but of late have changed my tune, today I spent the day with a Hawthorn mate of mine, we ventured down to Waverley so he can proceed with his membership, what wonderful facilities do the Hawks have, absolutely amazing, best I have seen. Something everyone has to check out.

Anyway onto the topic at hand, my mate says it would be a mistake to take Cousins and reminded me of my persistence that we have good kids coming through and the negative affect it will have on their development.

I really don't see it that way.

A player of the work ethic of Ben Cousins, his training ability and his superstar persona will be something that HELPS develop these kids.

When we look at our list, who of these kids will be likely to miss because of Cousins lining up in the midfield? Who of these kids will generate the world around Richmond right up until season 2009? Which of these kids will increase membership, sponsorship and extra monetary benefits that Ben will?

If Kane Johnson has a place on our list, I see that as more of a stoppage of kids development, Johnson is WAY past his best and as an AFL player, can't tie Cousins shoelace. It is not everyday we get a player of Cousins caliber in our famous colours.

For the sake of a Andrew Collins plugging away at Coburg, I am willing to have Ben Cousins in our side and hopefully enabling us to get some FINALS EXPERIENCE into our young players, our coaches, our veterans and more importantly OUR FANS. Success creates success, winning is everything, this is not only a short term decision, this is a lot more beneficial than that.

 

[K3]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

<snip>

Oh...we haven't seen enough of Polo or Coglan to rule on them now, because they tore the VFL up but we couldn't force him into the side with guns like Cousins and Cotch and Lids there...Oh....Johnson, Cousins and Tuck will not be playing much longer...Cotch, Lids and Foley can't do it alone and now we don't have enough games in our nextgen...damn...

Then everyone will be baying for Cameron's head and we'll be right back to where we started. Prove me wrong, I am openminded and would be most appreciative if somone could. Yet most/nearly all, keep ducking this question.

I'm not being a wet blanket, I want to believe! ;D ;D ;D

<snip>

You have certainly raised some good points there DD but let me throw this one out there... Competition makes a team stronger! How many years have we (well I know I have) been bemoaning an amazing lack of depth at the club? Now you have pretty much stated in your post that getting Benjamin (is a much more respectable name and should be used more often ) will make it harder for other players to get a shot in the big time, well to me that is a positive and how I hope it remains from this day forward.

Go Tige's!

 

[Danarchy]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Share your concern to some degree DD. There could be a worry down the track, where quality players feel they aren't getting enough time and look elswhere for game time. Similar to what has been the case at Geelong recently. But with some onfield success hopefully they could see the big picture and want to be part of a winning Tigers culture.

You are right, the ageing players on our list are a concern, and I believe that we have a good group starting to make some ground, finally. However. Adding someone of Cousins calibre is very tantalising, very hard to look past the positives, short term they may be.

 

[tigertime2]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Just because your the 57th person to post that doesn't mean that is all there is to it.

I still find it intriguing that all of Ben's backers can only keep going on about the short term and hear and now and are just happy to keep constantly repeating the same old...his a great trainer, elite player/brownlow medalist, can teach the kids. Yes...yes...yes...we keep hearing that.

I STILL haven't seen anyone explain to me how this will not negatively affect development and our side in 3 - 4 years.

I'd love to know how we are going to give an opportunity to Collins, Polo, Connors, maybe even Hislop or Thomson etc etc if they are playing well in the VFL. I've already named a 28yr old and 2 30+ yr olds who will be started in our side in Round 1 if healthy. Add Cotchin and Lids and you start to struggle to give anyone else opportunity if they deserve it.

I can see us sliding into the finals, everyone happy and high fiving each other...and then slowly click when it comes to list noinations at the end of 2009...

Oh...we haven't seen enough of Polo or Coglan to rule on them now, because they tore the VFL up but we couldn't force him into the side with guns like Cousins and Cotch and Lids there...Oh....Johnson, Cousins and Tuck will not be playing much longer...Cotch, Lids and Foley can't do it alone and now we don't have enough games in our nextgen...damn...

Then everyone will be baying for Cameron's head and we'll be right back to where we started. Prove me wrong, I am openminded and would be most appreciative if somone could. Yet most/nearly all, keep ducking this question.

I'm not being a wet blanket, I want to believe! ;D ;D ;D

More importantly though, I want what is best for the club longer term, not just for the next year or two.

Be gentle with me.

DD, the other day Kevin Sheedy on SEN made a very relevant point about the Hawks drafting Stuart Dew and the difference that one person made in the critical 3rd 1/4 of the GF. Ben Cousins only needs to produce in a few games that count and especially in the last two games of the year.

DD, you may be proven right, but the upside far outways the downside. Personally I would take the risk and like all decisions in life there is a risk that things will not turn out how we want it to, but this is a risk well worth taking. At the end of the day how long is it since we as Tiger fans have been able to dream of premiership glory and be genuinely excited about that happening sooner rather than later? Cousins would take the best opposition tagger each game he plays and that alone would help the developement of Cotchin. If Ben took the heat for 2-3 years Cotchin would be ready to take over when Ben left and that will set us up for the next 10 years.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

I just hope that if hypothetical happens it doesn't take the focus away from the rest of the group.
Getting Cousins will not make one pinch of difference to our side if the rest of the players drop their intensity 10-15% thinking that Benny is going to make their jobs easier.
Cousin's recruitment has the potential to be just as big a distraction to our '09 plans as help.
Nothing is certain.

 

[Tiger Endevour]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Just reported on Ch10 that TW met with both Cuz and Nixon this afternoon.....

 

[Jason King]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Ben can say no to everyone else but us right ? That is he doesnt have to go elsewhere even if they have an earlier pick ?

 

[BrisTiger24]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Ben can say no to everyone else but us right ? That is he doesnt have to go elsewhere even if they have an earlier pick ?

I don't think he can refuse to be selected. It's just like any draft. Didn't Stevens wish to go to Collingwood by Carlton picked him with the earlier pick?

 

[TigerLuke]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

When Gary March decided to cut down the salary cap to it's bare minimum, was it because they had plans of drafting Benny two months ago?

i hope the salary cap has nothing to do with it, if cousins is drafted by any club he should be on minimum wage + match payments(maybe even big $ match payments) cos even if he gets drafted there is still a long long way to go and many boxes to tick before he actually plays a game. you'd have to be on drugs to give him a high base salary.

i've been thinking about this as his chances of playing again were fading day by day. i thought for sure some club would draft him even though at this point in time i don't think he has proven that he deserves to be at any club, but i always thought that a club could draft him, park him on the list for a couple of months until his hair grows back, pass the hair test and other things, and then start training with the club. in the meantime he would be training by himself or somewhere else, with club supervision, to keep his fitness up.

did anyone see cousins talking on the grand final coverage? even he did not sound confident that he would be right to play again. he said that every day was a struggle and any club he went to would have to have understand this and have the structures in place. he sounded like he did not think he could play without those support structures in place, ie he still needs a lot of help. so the only thing is even on minimum wage there would be associated costs, eg doctors, counselling, with cousins at any club and i was sure that richmond did not have extra money to spend on cousins. unless they think they might get more sponsorship due to the media coverage but i doubt it. i thought a club not in debt would be better placed to support cousins.

someone posted about concerns that if cousins was out socialising with the players and his 'mates' turned up, what effect this would have on the other players. this does concern me greatly, especially cos we have such a young list. but i think all clubs have realised now that cousins is not going to get rid of his 'scaly' mates so i guess a club would put procedures in place to control this.

i believe after the psd and rookie draft pans out cousins would effectively only be taking up the last rookie spot so not much loss there. the debate may come down to whether wallace thinks in 2011-12 we would be a better team after having cousins playing in 2009-10. not to mention how his training ethic would be a positive for the young players.

if cousins plays in 2009-10+ then he gets the best tagger, foley and cotchin are then one rung down and don't get tagged as much thus giving them a couple more years to develop their game. on the flip side cousins takes up the last midfielders spot in the team robbing a player of those 20-40+ games of experience. which is the greater benefit?

of course that's ignoring any cousins off field issues that may affect the club, but one misdemeanor and cousins knows he's gone for good.

after all that i think cousins should come back into the AFL system but with a club not in debt. he should be drafted by some club but parked on their list until he passes the hair test and other checks.

tho in saying all of that he was a lucky boy that he never tested positive for drugs on a match day because he would most likely have been suspended for 2 years. at the moment he has effectively served only a 1 year suspension. so if there was such a thing as karma he wouldn't get picked up for 2009 but would next year for 2010.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Excellent post Luke.

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Channel 7 newsvan at Punt Road.

 

[TigerForce]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Schulz gave a response whereas all the others stayed quiet.

It's all up to Adolf now......... hope he has a good weekend.

 

[Dyer Disciple]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Interesting article from the West

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=4&ContentID=112598

Great article ToO. Your on fire today. Your wit's had me chuckling all afternoon.

I can back up this article with another source. One of Cousins closest mate's Brad Hardie was saying exactly the same thing this afternoon.

In short, wether it was or was not the way to go about things (last 3 or 4 months) he's been dong it the way his manager have been wanting him to play it. Now that hasn't worked his gotten up off his ass and moved into overdrive, approaching clubs, writing/calling them etc.

Adds a little more weight to my point about Nixon with you *wink*

Good on him for doing it at all, might be late, but at least his doing it now. THIS is what he should have been doing months ago.

 

[Dyer Disciple]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

According to sheehan, Wallace wants Benny and he reckons thats how it will go. sheehan is a *smile*, but still...

I think the only official thing I am not waiting to hear, is that Wallace wants Cousins.

That's what I would call a Captain Obvious mate.

 

[skiptomystu]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Schulz gave a response whereas all the others stayed quiet.

It's all up to Adolf now......... hope he has a good weekend.

What was said TF?

 

[Dyer Disciple]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

A player of the work ethic of Ben Cousins, his training ability and his superstar persona will be something that HELPS develop these kids.

When we look at our list, who of these kids will be likely to miss because of Cousins lining up in the midfield? Who of these kids will generate the world around Richmond right up until season 2009? Which of these kids will increase membership, sponsorship and extra monetary benefits that Ben will?

I hear you and agree.

Look, you and I both know there is a lot more that goes into a successful club than just the football department. I agree totally with you. Cousins would help the financial side, however he won't be around for long, I would argue while he might attract some short term cash injections...once his gone, and we struggle to have players fill the void and slide back, it would be a neutral deal.

As far as which of those kids would have the same effect...none first up...HOWEVER, if for arguments sake...Thomson becomes the next Mitchell. Imagine a midfield of Cotchin, Lids, Foley and "a Mitchell type" running around for the next 10 years. That would mean more prolonged success and windfall in the long term.

If Richmond are building a successful side for the next 5 years their membership will increase, if they sign Cousins and I am right and it backfires development wise...it will be just one more rise and dip on the rollercoaster that is RFC and leave us with yet ANOTHER twilighter to get rid of.

If Kane Johnson has a place on our list, I see that as more of a stoppage of kids development, Johnson is WAY past his best and as an AFL player, can't tie Cousins shoelace. It is not everyday we get a player of Cousins caliber in our famous colours.

This is really a non-pint because, while I agree with you, I am coming at this from a realistic stand point. You and I would not play Johnson next year Round 1. RFC and Wallace will. We have to accept the reality of what the club will do and base opinions from there.

For the sake of a Andrew Collins plugging away at Coburg, I am willing to have Ben Cousins in our side and hopefully enabling us to get some FINALS EXPERIENCE into our young players, our coaches, our veterans and more importantly OUR FANS. Success creates success, winning is everything, this is not only a short term decision, this is a lot more beneficial than that.

This is a excellent point. It's something I am acutely aware of and why I have debated with others on here like Claw & Phantom that we needed twilighters up till now.

There is a trade off, balance required. I agree. I've made the same point before when defending our Bowden's and the like.

Development aside, there is nothing like success to breed success.

It's this one thing that makes Cousins palletable for me (despite the fat i think his a major soft tissue risk anyway).

My main fear here is if that success is short and fleeting, and then we go backwards because kids weren't developed to taste a coppery lick of the premiership cup...well, was it really worth it?

 

[Mr Pumblechook]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

Interesting article from the West

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=4&ContentID=112598

From the article:

“He has probably for the first time shown a strong level of remorse. He has done that on his own and he has done it to a number of the major stakeholders.”

I'm pleased to here this. It was one of my major reservations - that he wasn't remorseful.

In short, wether it was or was not the way to go about things (last 3 or 4 months) he's been dong it the way his manager have been wanting him to play it. Now that hasn't worked his gotten up off his ass and moved into overdrive, approaching clubs, writing/calling them etc.

Yep - I've questioned the role and advice of Nixon in all this - and his motives.

Adds a little more weight to my point about Nixon with you *wink*

You would care to expand DD?

 

[Dyer Disciple]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

DD, the other day Kevin Sheedy on SEN made a very relevant point about the Hawks drafting Stuart Dew and the difference that one person made in the critical 3rd 1/4 of the GF. Ben Cousins only needs to produce in a few games that count and especially in the last two games of the year.

DD, you may be proven right, but the upside far outways the downside. Personally I would take the risk and like all decisions in life there is a risk that things will not turn out how we want it to, but this is a risk well worth taking. At the end of the day how long is it since we as Tiger fans have been able to dream of premiership glory and be genuinely excited about that happening sooner rather than later? Cousins would take the best opposition tagger each game he plays and that alone would help the developement of Cotchin. If Ben took the heat for 2-3 years Cotchin would be ready to take over when Ben left and that will set us up for the next 10 years.

I respect your view tt2, but have to disagree on one major premise.

With major decisions I have one main method. Weigh up the potential wins and losses and base which way I go based on, if the positives don't work out, and I can't afford the negatives...pass.

I disagree with you the pros outweigh the cons.

You make a good point about it assisting in the development of Cotchin and Lids etc, I did consider that, but they are always going to play and improve. Sure, maybe not as quickly as they might if cousins is in their to take heat off, but I would rather work on developing the entire side than just the stars.

The improvement you get from Cotch and Lids would be negated (if I am right) by the lack of young midfielders ready to play finals as in experienced/developed enough. I hate putting all the eggs in one basket, we did that with Richo and it didn't work. I don't want to do the same thing with Cotch and Lids...I want to see a good team structure not a reliance on a few superstars.

 

[TigerForce]

Re: Ben Cousins a tiger?

What was said TF?

Nothing big.

When asked "What do you think of Cousins?", all players stayed quiet except for Sarge who just responded "Yeah he's terrific".