Atheism

[jayfox]

I think that you are trying to make evolutionary change occur in large leaps, which it doesn't (although in some cases it can in geological timescales). Every species is a transitional form! Try extrapolating the changes that occur over massive timescales...things can certainly change and evolve great complexity.

If you throw a hundred fish a year onto the beach for a billion years you will end up with a hundred billion dead fish IMO. How did something like this happen?

Chance has a pretty clear definition. Do you think your white wolf survived by chance?

I have already clarified my point on what I was saying re: chance. You know what I meant.

No, I believe that creatures can change to adapt to their environments. That does not mean that I believe that they can make the massive changes that would make them be as different as a giraffe, eagle, elephant and shark are, regardless of the time frame.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

If you throw a hundred fish a year onto the beach for a billion years you will end up with a hundred billion dead fish IMO. How did something like this happen?

Evolution isn't about individual change, but changes in populations over time. Do you concede that there is variation in a population? Do you concede that at least some if not most of that variation is genetic and thus heritable? Do you concede that some variants are more likely to survive and reproduce, given the environment they find themselves in? Then you accept that the population will change over time to adapt to its environment.

This 'fish changing into another animal analogy' that creationists love to wheel out is a strawman.

I have already clarified my point on what I was saying re: chance. You know what I meant.

No, I believe that creatures can change to adapt to their environments. That does not mean that I believe that they can make the massive changes that would make them be as different as a giraffe, eagle, elephant and shark are, regardless of the time frame.

:confused :bs

There is a lot of literature on this topic containing data supporting the conclusions. You don't have take anyone's word or gut feeling on any of this. Instead of just saying "I don't believe it"...try reading the literature and pointing out where the flaws in the interpretation of the data lie.

We, as humans, have real problems comprehending geological timescales....it is not something that we have any reason to grasp unless we ask questions like this.

 

[Djevv]

In your opinion, perhaps. IMO it makes the life and consciousness that I have and experience all the more precious.

That second paragraph reveals wish thinking in action.....it can only affect you if you believe and yet you refuse to. On what grounds? Because you have some strange interpretation of the implications of that world view. Such a thought process is not likely to lead you to a true interpretation of the world around you.

That line of thinking can get you to reconsider ideas that you have held all your life and wonder if they are in fact correct. For the first time in my life I began to ask spiritual questions about who, in fact I was. Surely to be human is consider the nature of existance? At that point God started speaking to me and revealing himself to me in certain ways. You can call that 'wish fulfillment' if you want but it was real to me - and to many others as I later discovered. It's reality was manifest in a change of life that others noticed.

Anyway a question that occurs to me from what you are saying is : what would you give your life for?

I think I spend most of my time on here pointing out the flaws in the assertions made by certain individuals. I agree that this isn't something that can be settled one way or the other....believe what you like. However, certain claims made on this thread are clearly untrue and those can pointed out.

And you keep making the untrue assertion that there is 'no evidence' to back up Christianity, that I have spent a lot of time and energy refuting.

 

[Six Pack]

a fist fight? :-\

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

That line of thinking can get you to reconsider ideas that you have held all your life and wonder if they are in fact correct. For the first time in my life I began to ask spiritual questions about who, in fact I was. Surely to be human is consider the nature of existance? At that point God started speaking to me and revealing himself to me in certain ways. You can call that 'wish fulfillment' if you want but it was real to me - and to many others as I later discovered. It's reality was manifest in a change of life that others noticed.

Did you seek medical advice when you started hearing this voice? ;D (sorry, couldn't help myself).

I think many people come to ask these questions and explore possible answers. I think the absolute assurance that religion offers is a great comfort to people asking these questions. However, for me personally I have always encountered far too many flaws in religion to ever entertain the idea of belief in such a thing. I have no doubt that your belief and that of others is real in your experience, but that does not make it a reality outside of yourself. The changes that it led to in your personal life are one of those beneficial horizontal effects of religion. The trick is to find it within yourself to make such changes without needing to buy into clear falsehoods...it is possible .

Anyway a question that occurs to me from what you are saying is : what would you give your life for?

That is a good question and a difficult one to answer unless faced with it in reality. I am sure I wouldn't hesitate to give my life to save my loved ones, in other situations, I am not sure....I would have to be in it to know.

You?

And you keep making the untrue assertion that there is 'no evidence' to back up Christianity, that I have spent a lot of time and energy refuting.

I haven't seen one convincing argument to support the tenets of Christianity.

 

[AngryAnt]

Firstly, I am well aware that we can see that viruses exist under a microscope. My example was more to show that the average person has never seen the influenza virus under a microscope. They have never seen what makes them feel sick. They have been told what it is and feel the effects but have never actually seen it with their own eyes. I did say it wasn't a perfect example and that there probably is no perfect example but surely you could see the point?

I do understand the point you are making. However your philosophy reduces everything to the feelings, experiences and beliefs of the individual.

As I said, that is not an argument for the existence of God.

 

[jayfox]

I do understand the point you are making. However your philosophy reduces everything to the feelings, experiences and beliefs of the individual.

As I said, that is not an argument for the existence of God.

My real point is - Just because the average person can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Six Pack]

My real point is - Just because the average person can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

uh oh, you might need to define 'average' Foxman!

 

[AngryAnt]

My real point is - Just because the average person can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And we are back where we started. You have no evidence, and so you claim that an absence of evidence does not disprove God's existence.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

And we are back where we started. You have no evidence, and so you claim that an absence of evidence does not disprove God's existence.

Which is true.

It is also why what you said in an earlier post is about as far as this thread can go in terms of the simple question of whether a God exists.

As I've suggested, they should forget this approach and just say "my religion is my faith - I don't understand how God operates and how He made us into existence" and leave it at that rather than relying on wacky philosophers like Platinga or dubious extrapolations on what Noah's Ark actually looked like because in the end, it all comes down to personal belief.

As for me, I base my lack of belief in a God wholly in the fact that I have never seen any evidence of him, and the logical/philosophical/theological arguments for Him existing don't hold water, to put it bluntly. Difference is, as soon as I am shown hard evidence I'll have no problem conceding the fact that God does exist.

However as soon as anyone starts to make fallacious claims about the impact of their God on the world outside of their head, they are fair game >.

 

[jayfox]

However, for me personally I have always encountered far too many flaws in religion to ever entertain the idea of belief in such a thing. I have no doubt that your belief and that of others is real in your experience, but that does not make it a reality outside of yourself. The changes that it led to in your personal life are one of those beneficial horizontal effects of religion. The trick is to find it within yourself to make such changes without needing to buy into clear falsehoods...it is possible .

Lucky for you that you are so much more intelligent, analytical and less gullible than the believers out there, eh?

 

[Tigers of Old]

My real point is - Just because the average person can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As I have said before it should be a lot simpler than that, particularly if your God is going to send someone to hell if they don't see/believe in him/her based on nothing more than a 'feeling'.

 

[jayfox]

As I have said before it should be a lot simpler than that, particularly if your God is going to send someone to hell if they don't see/believe in him/her based on nothing more than a 'feeling'.

I would suggest that the evidence is all around you and it is up to you whether you choose to ignore it or not. I believe that all of Creation shows the evidence and wonder of God. Why do I believe it and not you? I have no idea. But I can't see why you would be upset with the methods of something that you don't believe in. And just because you don't agree with His methods doesn't mean that He isn't real.

 

[Djevv]

As I have said before it should be a lot simpler than that, particularly if your God is going to send someone to hell if they don't see/believe in him/her based on nothing more than a 'feeling'.

Look Oldie, seriously, there is evidence, both metaphysical/philosophical and historical and life experience. If you want to be informed rather than 'going with the flow' - our society is not friendly to Faith - I can point you to numerous excellent sites and articles.

To be frank I don't come on this thread because I love being abused, being called mentally defective or a goose or whatever. I've got better things to do. I do it because I care and these issues are, to me, where life is 'at'. I'm pretty sure Jay is the same, even the 'opposition' is here because fundamentally they are people an these issues are important. So by all means have an opinion, but I would encourage you to make it an informed one .

 

[Disco08]

Would you mind giving Tooheys a brief list of the available evidence Djevv?

 

[jayfox]

Would you mind giving Tooheys a brief list of the available evidence Djevv?

Start with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, I reckon Disco.

 

[AngryAnt]

Start with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, I reckon Disco.

That's not evidence, that's literary criticism...

 

[jayfox]

That's not evidence, that's literary criticism...

Call it what you like. They are first hand accounts of those who have seen Jesus. And I see no reason not to believe that they did and that He was who they say He was.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Start with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, I reckon Disco.

Again, that's just words, from a long, long time ago no less, when people believed all sorts of things which have since been disproven by science.
I need far more than that to be convinced.

As I said Jayfox, I was actually interested in the notion of God for a while there and am even still intrigued by it mainly because I have never found what so many claim to have been touched by. Not through lack of trying either BTW.

I went to church, youth groups, the whole shebang & I met some very nice people through those experiences but I never 'felt' anything that made me think that there was a God in the way you describe so I stopped going and remain unconvinced by it.
If that makes me a target for God to send me off to hell well so be it but I find that whole concept pretty offensive.

 

[jayfox]

Again, that's just words, from a long, long time ago no less, when people believed all sorts of things which have since been disproven by science.
I need far more than that to be convinced.

As I said Jayfox, I was actually interested in the notion of God for a while there and am even still intrigued by it mainly because I have never found what so many claim to have been touched by. Not through lack of trying either BTW.

I went to church, youth groups, the whole shebang & I met some very nice people through those experiences but I never 'felt' anything that made me think that there was a God in the way you describe so I stopped going and remain unconvinced by it.
If that makes me a target for God to send me off to hell well so be it but I find that whole concept pretty offensive.

Yeah, I have no explanation as to why you didn;t find God initially, except that maybe the timing wasn't right for you. With God life is all about a journey, not necessarily a 'cliff top moment' where you either jump or you don't. Perhaps it wasn't in God's plan to reveal Himself to you at that stage? Perhaps He wants you to continue searching for Him to show that you are genuinely seeking him and not easily giving up? He always reveals Himself to those that truly want a relationship with Him but it is always in His timing, not theirs. I'd encourage you to continue your search as my relationship with God is the greatest thing in my life which I know will never leave me. When everything else on Earth is wrong and sucks, you can always talk to God and know that He loves you and wants the best for you. It doesn't mean He will make your life easy but He will enable you to cope.