Atheism

[Tigers of Old]

As for your cold virus analogy....I can certainly test for the presence of the cold and if I want I can visualise it with the proper equipment. There is no such test for your God and no evidence of his existence. How do you know that you are not deluding yourself? Wish thinking can be quite seductive and surety in this life is a comforting thing. This may come across as derogatory, but I am honestly asking how you rule this out?

Entirely agree.

Yet you seem to understand it with 100% surety. ???

Again agree. Good posting.

 

[jayfox]

Our parents, family, teachers, friends and these days TV's and computers. Our environment and the society we live in play huge roles in determining an individual's morality. As societies evolve, so too does morality.

See, this and your other comment about morality improving over the years is false IMO. I reckon society's morals have gone way down hill in recent years. There is waaaay more drug use, promiscuous sex, lack of respect, crime, selfishness, lack of community etc.

Not entirely related but another change today - I can remember a time when everyone knew all of their neighbours, and they would be a community within a community and babysit each others kids etc. These days most people barely know their neighbours and just hope their not too noisy or have dogs that bark etc.

 

[Disco08]

You obviously don't live in a small town, and cities for the most part were never like this.

You don't think today's morality is a vast improvement over the slavery, degradation of women etc. of the 19th century? Perhaps you're referring to times only decades ago where people voted in laws with such high moral values as the White Australia policy. As for drug use and promiscuous sex, while I wasn't alive I'm led to believe the 60's were pretty good.

I think it's quite obvious that technology is having an effect on the current generation's morality and attitude in general, but to say that as a society we've gone backwards is ludicrous IMO.

 

[jayfox]

You obviously don't live in a small town, and cities for the most part were never like this.

You don't think today's morality is a vast improvement over the slavery, degradation of women etc. of the 19th century? Perhaps you're referring to times only decades ago where people voted in laws with such high moral values as the White Australia policy. As for drug use and promiscuous sex, while I wasn't alive I'm led to believe the 60's were pretty good.

I think it's quite obvious that technology is having an effect on the current generation's morality and attitude in general, but to say that as a society we've gone backwards is ludicrous IMO.

Well wrap me up and call me ludicrous. In my generation alone I have seen a massive drop in society's morals. Most people my age, i.e. most of my mates (most of them non-Christians) think the same too. Yes we live in a city so that would make a small difference but I think you only have to see what can be watched on tv these days to get the idea. Someone like Gordon Ramsay wouldn't get past the first episode before being banned for being inappropriate in years gone by.

And I would agree that the 60's weren't great but I think they were probably the start of the moral decline. I think there has been a makor difference since the 1900's - 1950's to now.

 

[Disco08]

You think the years between 1900-1960 with accepted practices such as apartheid, slavery, no rights for women, gay bashing etc, etc were morally ahead of what exists in society today?

 

[hutstar]

Well wrap me up and call me ludicrous. In my generation alone I have seen a massive drop in society's morals. Most people my age, i.e. most of my mates (most of them non-Christians) think the same too. Yes we live in a city so that would make a small difference but I think you only have to see what can be watched on tv these days to get the idea. Someone like Gordon Ramsay wouldn't get past the first episode before being banned for being inappropriate in years gone by.

And I would agree that the 60's weren't great but I think they were probably the start of the moral decline. I think there has been a makor difference since the 1900's - 1950's to now.

Yep, with Disco - Morality has come forward in leaps and bounds, most of it despite religion. So what if Gordon Ramsey Swears - how is that an argument about morality? Same with drugs! They just don't link with morals at all, just values, which are VERY subjective.
I agree with the simplicity of nothing, born, live, nothing. Sure, there are plenty of things we don't know - but do we really need to explain them with a fairytale?

 

[AngryAnt]

It may not be material evidence as you would like to see it but it is experiential evidence which can be just as important. If you have a cold do you see the cold virus that is causing you to feel crap? No. But do you feel the affects of it on your body/life. Of course. There is no perfect Earthly example to explain a relationship with God but there are plenty of things in this life that the average person accepts through experiential evidence only.

An absolutely terrible example Jayfox. Viruses exist - here's an electron microscope photo of the influenza virus.

Before people knew about virii through scientific research, we felt sick but didn't know why. It was because we were caught out in the rain or didn't wear our coat in cold weather. We knew about bacteria (depending on the point in history) but the discovery and study of viruses is even more recent.

So sure, I have "experiential" knowledge of viral infections but there is also a huge pile of scientific evidence to explain that experience.

 

[Six Pack]

the idea that society has lower moral standards now is subjective at best and completely erroneous at worst.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Before people knew about virii through scientific research, we felt sick but didn't know why. It was because we were caught out in the rain or didn't wear our coat in cold weather. We knew about bacteria (depending on the point in history) but the discovery and study of viruses is even more recent.

Or it was because we were sinners, or afflicted by evil spirits.

That particular theory has fallen out of favour for the most part, even amongst the deeply religious. Another myth (gap) forced to make way by the weight of scientific evidence against it. :-\

 

[evo]

I don't think moral standards are either lowering or raising.They are just shifting focus.(as Duckman is alluding to)

There may be some sort of ethical 'golden mean' within humans that stays relatively constant over millennia but shifts focus.

Dunno,just a hunch.

 

[Djevv]

I think individual morality has slipped, I think societies rules (PC morality) have become stricter to compensate.

 

[jayfox]

As for your cold virus analogy....I can certainly test for the presence of the cold and if I want I can visualise it with the proper equipment. There is no such test for your God and no evidence of his existence. How do you know that you are not deluding yourself? Wish thinking can be quite seductive and surety in this life is a comforting thing. This may come across as derogatory, but I am honestly asking how you rule this out?

An absolutely terrible example Jayfox. Viruses exist - here's an electron microscope photo of the influenza virus.

Firstly, I am well aware that we can see that viruses exist under a microscope. My example was more to show that the average person has never seen the influenza virus under a microscope. They have never seen what makes them feel sick. They have been told what it is and feel the effects but have never actually seen it with their own eyes. I did say it wasn't a perfect example and that there probably is no perfect example but surely you could see the point?

Secondly, how do I know that I am not deluding myself? It's an interesting question. I have no doubt and again I will say that I have the "blessed assurance" that God gives to those who put their faith in Him. I know that this sounds ridiculous to an unbeliever, but it is a sense of complete certainty. You can see Him in every part of creation, feel His presence, speak with Him and even get responses of sort - feelings, thoughts etc. that are incredible and difficult to explain. I have had moments of uncertainty, prayed, and then had an absolute certainty of what to do and feel completely reassured, without stress. Instantly. I had another time of grief and I prayed and felt as if someone had wrapped their arms around me. The feeling was just as strong as if my wife was hugging me there at that moment, except I was alone. Do these prove there is a God? Perhaps not. Was it merely a reaction to grief? I certainly don't think so. Remarkable coincidence? Something I talked myself into? I don't think so and I was the one experiencing it. Occurances like that throughout my life reassure me that God is there and does care for us.

 

[jayfox]

Or it was because we were sinners, or afflicted by evil spirits.

That particular theory has fallen out of favour for the most part, even amongst the deeply religious. Another myth (gap) forced to make way by the weight of scientific evidence against it. :-\

The Bible doesn't say that we will definitely come on hard times on this Earth because we are sinners. There are examples of it, reaping what we sew, prodigal son, some people being possessed by an evil spirit etc. but there is always a chance for them to be saved and there are plenty of bad people who don't get their just deserts until after death.

The people who say that others get sick because of sin is ridiculous. In an imperfect world good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.

 

[jayfox]

I don't think moral standards are either lowering or raising.They are just shifting focus.(as Duckman is alluding to)

There may be some sort of ethical 'golden mean' within humans that stays relatively constant over millennia but shifts focus.

Dunno,just a hunch.

The morality question neither proves or disproves God anyway. I so think that if all people followed Jesus' teaching then the world would have far better morals and be a far better place -

Do unto others as you'd have them do to you.
Love your neighbour as yourself
Turn the other cheek etc.

 

[Djevv]

Who really knows the answer to how life began?

Noone. Does it matter is the real question? I think it does because it tells our place in the cosmos. Are we just naturally reorganised cosmic dust then every thing is entirely meaningless ... ultimately.

In the Bible God said he was responsible for it. He said we were made in His image for a purpose.

At the end of the day if the materialist is correct and all is 'dust in the wind' then to me that is irrelevant, as ultimately it doesn't matter. The only way it can affect my life is if I believe it. But something in me refuses to believe it. I think that that is why originally I abandoned Atheism and became a Christian.

The Atheists on here will say there is no evidence. Whatever they say we spent over 400 pages and 100 on here discussing various evidences. I would say again what I have said from the start, there is PLENTY of evidence for the reasonable person to believe - but there is no silver bullet - no ultimate proof - which is why the Bible holds Faith to be among the supreme virtues.

 

[jayfox]

We have been having this discussion for some time and it seems that the basic principles of evolution still seem to elude you. You don't even seem to have grasped that one of the major driving forces of evolution, natural selection is the opposite of chance! Yet you and other creationists continue to harp on about how you can't believe that everything evolved by chance. Guess what? Neither do I, nor any other evolutionary biologist! If you actually took a little bit of time and looked at the principle (like I said in a recent post, it is simple enough for a child to grasp) I think you would see the role that chance plays in the evolution of complex, adaptive traits...ie. 0.

I actually agree with natural selection as a way that creatures can change. I understand how a white snow wolf would be more likely to survive than a black snow wolf due to ease of hunting and so eventually all snow wolves look white (terrible example I know). Natural selection doesn't explain to me how a fish can grow legs and survive out of the ocean, even after a billion years of trying? Natural selection, as I understand it, doesn't explain to me the massive changes that would have to occur for evolution as you describe it to have happened. How does it explain the very beginning of it all? How does it explain that if everything's origins are the same why don't we see multitudes of transitional fossils. There should be millions of them, shouldn't there? Perhaps you could direct me again to your previous explanation that even a child could understand.

I think our understanding of chance is different. I am saying that if all of this that we see around us was a fluke. It happened without design. That is what I am talking about in saying by 'chance'.

 

[Six Pack]

maybe we should have a drinking competition to sort all this out? :clap

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Noone. Does it matter is the real question? I think it does because it tells our place in the cosmos. Are we just naturally reorganised cosmic dust then every thing is entirely meaningless ... ultimately.

In your opinion, perhaps. IMO it makes the life and consciousness that I have and experience all the more precious.

In the Bible God said he was responsible for it. He said we were made in His image for a purpose.

At the end of the day if the materialist is correct and all is 'dust in the wind' then to me that is irrelevant, as ultimately it doesn't matter. The only way it can affect my life is if I believe it. But something in me refuses to believe it. I think that that is why originally I abandoned Atheism and became a Christian.

That second paragraph reveals wish thinking in action.....it can only affect you if you believe and yet you refuse to. On what grounds? Because you have some strange interpretation of the implications of that world view. Such a thought process is not likely to lead you to a true interpretation of the world around you.

The Atheists on here will say there is no evidence. Whatever they say we spent over 400 pages and 100 on here discussing various evidences. I would say again what I have said from the start, there is PLENTY of evidence for the reasonable person to believe - but there is no silver bullet - no ultimate proof - which is why the Bible holds Faith to be among the supreme virtues.

I think I spend most of my time on here pointing out the flaws in the assertions made by certain individuals. I agree that this isn't something that can be settled one way or the other....believe what you like. However, certain claims made on this thread are clearly untrue and those can pointed out.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Firstly, I am well aware that we can see that viruses exist under a microscope. My example was more to show that the average person has never seen the influenza virus under a microscope. They have never seen what makes them feel sick. They have been told what it is and feel the effects but have never actually seen it with their own eyes. I did say it wasn't a perfect example and that there probably is no perfect example but surely you could see the point?

The point is that there are ways of testing for the presence of these viruses that are completely objective. Your experience of 'God' is completely subjective, so, no, I don't see the point.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I actually agree with natural selection as a way that creatures can change. I understand how a white snow wolf would be more likely to survive than a black snow wolf due to ease of hunting and so eventually all snow wolves look white (terrible example I know). Natural selection doesn't explain to me how a fish can grow legs and survive out of the ocean, even after a billion years of trying? Natural selection, as I understand it, doesn't explain to me the massive changes that would have to occur for evolution as you describe it to have happened. How does it explain the very beginning of it all? How does it explain that if everything's origins are the same why don't we see multitudes of transitional fossils. There should be millions of them, shouldn't there? Perhaps you could direct me again to your previous explanation that even a child could understand.

I think that you are trying to make evolutionary change occur in large leaps, which it doesn't (although in some cases it can in geological timescales). Every species is a transitional form! Try extrapolating the changes that occur over massive timescales...things can certainly change and evolve great complexity.

I think our understanding of chance is different. I am saying that if all of this that we see around us was a fluke. It happened without design. That is what I am talking about in saying by 'chance'.

Chance has a pretty clear definition. Do you think your white wolf survived by chance?