Atheism

[AngryAnt]

I can't remember if it has been covered much on this thread but how do the evolutionist Atheists feel in knowing that the founder of their beliefs, Charles Darwin, believed that Black people were less evolved (and therefore closer to the apes) than white people? Does this smack of racism at all to you? He was pretty firm in this belief, if I understand correctly, but do you believe that he got this wrong given that people of all races today are considered equal? Or do you believe that we are more highly evolved than the Indigenous Australians, Native Americans or Native Africans?

Darwin is not the "founder of their beliefs". He proposed a scientific theory which has been refined and developed through the scientific method for over 150 years.

Darwin, like many people of that time had ideas that most of us would consider racist today. We can reject his ideas on race and still accept the scientific theory he proposed.

Evolutionary theory does not equal atheism by the way.

 

[Tiger74]

I can't remember if it has been covered much on this thread but how do the evolutionist Atheists feel in knowing that the founder of their beliefs, Charles Darwin, believed that Black people were less evolved (and therefore closer to the apes) than white people? Does this smack of racism at all to you? He was pretty firm in this belief, if I understand correctly, but do you believe that he got this wrong given that people of all races today are considered equal? Or do you believe that we are more highly evolved than the Indigenous Australians, Native Americans or Native Africans?

Reasonable question. I don't like his view with that regard, and unfortunately it was not one uncommon at the time. Being a bigot however does not dilute the theory as such.

Many early Christian leaders endorsed slavery. Does this lower the value of the lessons of OT morality though?

Although the perspective of how a theory or a discovery is made should be considered when testing it, if the theory can stand by itself the theory may still be good and valid. You need to be objective about these things.

An example I would give is the difference between Christianity and Scientology. I could point at Kirk Cameron and a lot of those dills proclaiming the apocolyse is nigh on TV and 4am in the morning and say "these are dead set extremist dills, and based upon their lack of credibility, Christianity must be wrong". This would be wrong though, as many other intelligent and reasoned people have developed rationales "proving" the existance of God which deserve to be respected and not dismissed without proper consideration.

Scientology on the otherhand was developed with a background story that is extremely doubtful, and uses recruitment tactics which have more in common with brainwashing than enlightenment. While Christianity and Evolution have many unproven/unprovable holes in them today, you can drive a bus through those for Scientology.

Play the ball Jay, not the man. You are better than that

 

[Six Pack]

like i said, Darwin doesnt inform my beliefs.

 

[jayfox]

do you care to elaborate?

Everyone's life journey, beliefs and opinions are directly (or indirectly) affected by their families, people they interact with, things they are told, information that they are taught or have read. In the end it is up to each of us to decide what we believe as true and not but there are many, many influencing factors. If you believe in evolution, then Charles Darwin has had an affect on your beliefs, whether you like it or not, as he was a major founder this side of scientific research.

 

[Six Pack]

Everyone's life journey, beliefs and opinions are directly (or indirectly) affected by their families, people they interact with, things they are told, information that they are taught or have read. In the end it is up to each of us to decide what we believe as true and not but there are many, many influencing factors. If you believe in evolution, then Charles Darwin has had an affect on your beliefs, whether you like it or not, as he was a major founder this side of scientific research.

I'm an atheist. i worked this out without any help from Darwin. Don't assume that we all need some guru, jay.

Separate issues anyways.

 

[jayfox]

I'm an atheist. i worked this out without any help from Darwin. Don't assume that we all need some guru, jay.

Separate issues anyways.

Do you believe in evolution?

 

[Six Pack]

Jay, if you track back thru all these threads you will see that I have avoided a lot of the scientific stuff that some of the others have dabbled in. this is because i don't feel particularly qualified to contribute to the cut and thrust of the evolutionary/science argument.

My atheism is more deep seated than that anyways. its based on what i have seen and heard. it's based on a rejection of organised religion, in particular christianity.

However, generally speaking, and without wanting to go thru all the science stuff again, i believe in the idea of evolution. but i dont feel i possess enough knowledge of it to debate it with u.

 

[jayfox]

Jay, if you track back thru all these threads you will see that I have avoided a lot of the scientific stuff that some of the others have dabbled in. this is because i don't feel particularly qualified to contribute to the cut and thrust of the evolutionary/science argument.

My atheism is more deep seated than that anyways. its based on what i have seen and heard. it's based on a rejection of organised religion, in particular christianity.

However, generally speaking, and without wanting to go thru all the science stuff again, i believe in the idea of evolution. but i dont feel i possess enough knowledge of it to debate it with u.

If you believe in a theory that was founded by a man, regardless of the extent of your knowledge of it, then clearly that man has had an affect on you.

6ty, You come across as a person who has had a bad experience with Christianity or with a church in the past. Is that the case?

 

[Six Pack]

Jay, i dont really think Darwin has had any real direct effect on me.

And yr probably on the money with yr hypothesising about the 'bad experience' but there's much more to it than that.

Quite simply, i find the idea of a divine being to be completely irrational.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Jay,

You do understand that evolutionary theory is based on evidence, not the opinion of Darwin?

It was pretty commonplace for individuals from Darwin's time to hold similar views on other races. This has no bearing on the evidence supporting evolution. You should also realise that Darwin did not come up with the idea of evolution, it had been around for a long time before him. He was just the first to clearly outline a driving mechanism, in natural selection. This mechanism now sits in what is referred to as the modern synthesis to describe the 'unified' theory of evolution. This is where debate still exists in the scientific exploration of evolution, the driving mechanisms and their relative contribution and importance. There is no debate in science on whether evolution occurs or not.

Do you dismiss natural selection as a mechanism that can lead to change in a population of biological organisms?

 

[jayfox]

Jay,

You do understand that evolutionary theory is based on evidence, not the opinion of Darwin?

It was pretty commonplace for individuals from Darwin's time to hold similar views on other races. This has no bearing on the evidence supporting evolution. You should also realise that Darwin did not come up with the idea of evolution, it had been around for a long time before him. He was just the first to clearly outline a driving mechanism, in natural selection. This mechanism now sits in what is referred to as the modern synthesis to describe the 'unified' theory of evolution. This is where debate still exists in the scientific exploration of evolution, the driving mechanisms and their relative contribution and importance. There is no debate in science on whether evolution occurs or not.

Do you dismiss natural selection as a mechanism that can lead to change in a population of biological organisms?

I understand that Darwin was the originator of much of the accepted theory surrounding evolution today. Anyway, Darwin is irrelevant, he is just a name. My point is that you are affected by any person who comes up with a theory, regardless of the evidence, that you then decide to believe in.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I understand that Darwin was the originator of much of the accepted theory surrounding evolution today. Anyway, Darwin is irrelevant, he is just a name. My point is that you are affected by any person who comes up with a theory, regardless of the evidence, that you then decide to believe in.

He was the originator of one part of the theory...natural selection. Significant for it's originality and self-evident ability to drive evolutionary change. A very powerful idea. I would be interested to know how you think Darwin himself affects the implications of his theory? They are two separate issues and should be judged as such.

 

[AngryAnt]

My point is that you are affected by any person who comes up with a theory, regardless of the evidence, that you then decide to believe in.

Your point is wrong. In fact in the words of the famous physicist Richard Feynman it is "not even wrong" as it is based on a total lack of understanding of the scientific method.

 

[jayfox]

Your point is wrong. In fact in the words of the famous physicist Richard Feynman it is "not even wrong" as it is based on a total lack of understanding of the scientific method.

What? The point I have been making is that what people believe in is affected by what they are taught or told by people during their lives. How can you possibly disagree with that?

 

[AngryAnt]

What? The point I have been making is that what people believe in is affected by what they are taught or told by people during their lives. How can you possibly disagree with that?

IF that is really your point then it is so incredibly obvious that pointing it out is a complete waste of time.

Unless of course your real agenda is to show the we "believe" in evolution because someone told us about it, and you "believe" in God because of your cultural experience so therefore they are of equal standing.

Wrong and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method, peer review, evidence, etc etc.... cultural relativism won't fly here soldier.

 

[evo]

.... cultural relativism won't fly here soldier.

;D 8)

 

[jayfox]

IF that is really your point then it is so incredibly obvious that pointing it out is a complete waste of time.

Unless of course your real agenda is to show the we "believe" in evolution because someone told us about it, and you "believe" in God because of your cultural experience so therefore they are of equal standing.

Wrong and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method, peer review, evidence, etc etc.... cultural relativism won't fly here soldier.

Thanks for the tips Johnny-come-lately and thanks for doing your best to misinterpret my posts. I agree that my point was incredibly obvious and I was trying to get 6pack to understand and acknowledge that. I'd suggest you go back and read my posts before you shoot your mouth off incorrectly in future.

 

[Six Pack]

oops? me? I wasn't paying attention.

What do I have to acknowledge?

 

[AngryAnt]

Thanks for the tips Johnny-come-lately and thanks for doing your best to misinterpret my posts. I agree that my point was incredibly obvious and I was trying to get 6pack to understand and acknowledge that. I'd suggest you go back and read my posts before you shoot your mouth off incorrectly in future.

In other words you have no comeback.

 

[jayfox]

In other words you have no comeback.

What are you talking about? My whole point, the entire time I have been making it, was that what people believe in is affected by what they are taught or told by people during their lives. I was making this point to 6pack to show that the studies and findings of Darwin (along with many, many others) have had a direct or indirect affect on what he believes because he was failing to recognise that. Go back and read every one of my "and 6 packs posts on this issue and maybe you will get it. If you don't then I can't help you.

In fact I'm gonna list them here for you and you can tell me what you disagree with -

Everyone's life journey, beliefs and opinions are directly (or indirectly) affected by their families, people they interact with, things they are told, information that they are taught or have read. In the end it is up to each of us to decide what we believe as true and not but there are many, many influencing factors. If you believe in evolution, then Charles Darwin has had an affect on your beliefs, whether you like it or not, as he was a major founder this side of scientific research."

"If you believe in a theory that was founded by a man, regardless of the extent of your knowledge of it, then clearly that man has had an affect on you."

"My point is that you are affected by any person who comes up with a theory, regardless of the evidence, that you then decide to believe in."

"The point I have been making is that what people believe in is affected by what they are taught or told by people during their lives. How can you possibly disagree with that?"

In other words you have no comeback.

I don't need a comeback. You are the one who has been misinterpreting my posts and intent the entire time. This conversation with 6pack was never about the credibility of the research involved but about getting him to realise that Darwin has had some affect on his life, or at least what he believes.