Atheism

[jayfox]

Why is that though? Your God created it after all.

I have said this so many times it's not funny (perhaps we need an emoticon for it ). Bad things happen in a fallen world because of sin. God created a perfect world were no harm would come to anyone but we all broke His rules so we all live with the consequences.

 

[Disco08]

God didn't foresee this happening before he started creating?

 

[jayfox]

I wasn't being provocative but typical of you to suggest that. I was responding to a specific comment of Djevv's because I respect his opinions and was interested to understand more. I have no time for your preaching considering your hypocrisy on this site. I simply don 't believe you're genuine or you wouldn't behave the way you do on here.

You talk about God "pilfering children for His own purposes" you weren't being provocative? Fair enough, I apologise for the accusation but I would hate to see you actually try to be provocative.

By the way, Djevv and my opinions on this topic, thus far, are exactly the same so if you respect his opinions you respect mine by default, whether you like it or not.

My hypocrisy? I'm just glad that God is more forgiving than you are considering that He at least forgives those who ask for it (as I have apologised to you). You always act like my "behaviour" has been something appalling but I still maintain that I've done very, very little wrong. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one but it is you who keeps bringing it up for some reason? Why do you do that? Do you like having that over me?

Those who post on here regularly know that I am genuine. Answer me this - Why would anyone spend this much time debating about something that they aren't actually genuine about? And how would they know so much about it if they hadn't studied it for years as a foundation for living their life?

Having said that you talk of an "only one God" where I mentioned some religions have other beliefs including reincarnation. You can spew forth quotes from the Bible but to me you might as well quote Dr Suess. It's just words and interpretations. Other religions could post claims to support their own beliefs too.

Exactly the reason why you need to study the context of a passage rather than just pulling bits out to suit your point of view. I agree that this is how many extremists bend passages to create a false ideal.

An advantage of being agnostic is not being blinkered to other people's beliefs and being free to respect the fact that many religions are "the" religion to the people who believe in them.

Do you respect that my religion is "the" religion to me then?

Therefore to me taking children to Heaven from a religion that doesn't believe in that fate is pilfering, stealing, kidnapping or whatever. To me it seems very selfish to deny them the chance to reincarnate, or end up elsewhere, when their families would believe that's what had happened after they died.

If there is only one God, as we (me, Djevv, TT2) subscribe to, then there is only one Heaven and no reincarnation. So the choice for these kids is simply Heaven or Hell. God is saying that "even though your parents didn't believe in me and believed in a God that doesn;t exist, I am not going to punish you for that and will save you anyway". That is wonderful.
If there is more than 1 God then we are wrong about everything, as would be the Bible, and nothing we say matters anyway, so the point is irrelevant. It's not selfish of God because it won't happen.

 

[jayfox]

God didn't foresee this happening before he started creating?

Yes He did. He knew we were going to turn against Him but created us anyway. The easy thing would have been to have given up on us but instead, as the saying goes, He sent Jesus to die for us before we were even created. THAT is an amazing God of love.

 

[Disco08]

Tell me again what's so loving about creating billions of souls with the knowledge that the majority of them are going to suffer for eternity.

Yes He did. He knew we were going to turn against Him but created us anyway.

So why are we told He wanted the world to be perfect when clearly He didn't. If He wanted the perfect world surely He could have created it in such a way that His plans wouldn't go awry.

 

[jayfox]

Tell me again what's so loving about creating billions of souls with the knowledge that the majority of them are going to suffer for eternity.

The fact that He even gives us a chance for it not to be that way. And not only gave us a chance but created that chance by personally suffering horrifically in the process. God is a just judge and no-one goes to Hell unfairly.

So why are we told He wanted the world to be perfect when clearly He didn't. If He wanted the perfect world surely He could have created it in such a way that His plans wouldn't go awry.

We've been through this a zillion times. To have a true relationship with someone, they have to be a willing participant in that relationship and not a robot. They have to have the choice of whether to want to be in that relationship or whether to reject you. Anything less is a dictatorship.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I know you have covered this topic before....it still doesn't make any sense when looked at closely though.

God created man and then holds man responsible for his (God-given) nature, all along knowing the outcome before doing it in the first place.

Therein lies the ridiculous core of your argument. Correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[Disco08]

We've been through this a zillion times. To have a true relationship with someone, they have to be a willing participant in that relationship and not a robot. They have to have the choice of whether to want to be in that relationship or whether to reject you. Anything less is a dictatorship.

So God originally designed a dictatorship until Adam and Eve stuffed it up?

The fact that He even gives us a chance for it not to be that way. And not only gave us a chance but created that chance by personally suffering horrifically in the process. God is a just judge and no-one goes to Hell unfairly.

Yes, He gave us a chance, but I'm prettu sure you've pointed out where The bible says many or most people will not make it to heaven. So, really the chance itself is irrelevant when determining God's love for His children. The bare fact is that God knew beforehand how many souls would go to hell and exactly which souls those were. Why even offer these souls the chance to go to heaven if you already know they're not going to make it?

 

[evo]

I know you have covered this topic before....it still doesn't make any sense when looked at closely though.

God created man and then holds man responsible for his (God-given) nature, all along knowing the outcome before doing it in the first place.

Therein lies the ridiculous core of your argument. Correct me if I am mistaken.

'Original Sin' is awesome--the more one investigates ithe concept,the more ludicrous it becomes.They couldn't make this stuff up.

well they could actually.

 

[Disco08]

I don't know why he put the snake there, particularly one that talks AND blabs. Or don't have the tree there, one or the either. It's an accident waiting to happen.

 

[jayfox]

I know you have covered this topic before....it still doesn't make any sense when looked at closely though.

God created man and then holds man responsible for his (God-given) nature, all along knowing the outcome before doing it in the first place.

Therein lies the ridiculous core of your argument. Correct me if I am mistaken.

No. God created man with a choice of whether to obey Him or not. There are penalties for disobeying. God knew that man would disobey so He created a way for him to be forgiven and considered perfect in His eyes upon judgment.

You may call it ridiculous. I think it's fantastic. God knew we would disobey Him yet created us anyway and still gave us a chance to spend eternity in Heaven with Him, which we so clearly don't deserve.

 

[jayfox]

So God originally designed a dictatorship until Adam and Eve stuffed it up?

No, it wasn't a dictatorship as they had a choice. They chose poorly, as have we all.

[/quote]

Yes, He gave us a chance, but I'm prettu sure you've pointed out where The bible says many or most people will not make it to heaven. So, really the chance itself is irrelevant when determining God's love for His children. The bare fact is that God knew beforehand how many souls would go to hell and exactly which souls those were. Why even offer these souls the chance to go to heaven if you already know they're not going to make it?
[/quote]

But they are going to Hell by their own choice, not His. Every one of those souls would have had the chance to repent and turn to Him if they wanted to, but they chose not to (we know about those without the law). Every person who goes to Hell will deserve it. No person who goes to Heaven will deserve it but God has made a way for that to happen anyway.

 

[jayfox]

'Original Sin' is awesome--the more one investigates ithe concept,the more ludicrous it becomes.They couldn't make this stuff up.

well they could actually.

Why?

 

[Disco08]

God knew we would disobey Him yet created us anyway and still gave us a chance to spend eternity in Heaven with Him, which we so clearly don't deserve.

Why exactly don't we deserve it Jay? It's not as if we'd all listen to a talking snake and disobey the orders of a supreme being.

No, it wasn't a dictatorship as they had a choice. They chose poorly, as have we all.

But God wanted a dictatorship though right? He was very upset with Adam and Eve for ruining it wasn't he? Doesn't this imply that he'd have preferred mankind not to know evil and to spend eternity in heaven with Him?

But they are going to Hell by their own choice, not His. Every one of those souls would have had the chance to repent and turn to Him if they wanted to, but they chose not to

Yes, I understand that. It doesn't however address the point at all.

Why even offer souls the chance to go to heaven if you already know they're not going to make it?

Every person who goes to Hell will deserve it. No person who goes to Heaven will deserve it but God has made a way for that to happen anyway.

So basically the moral is this: Even if you're kindhearted, generous, honest and loving you're nothing but a sinner deserving of eternity in Hell.

How sad.

 

[Rosy]

My hypocrisy? I'm just glad that God is more forgiving than you

Yes your hypocrisy, preaching one thing and practicing another. You've apologised but still continued to tell lies and *smile* stir on this forum. Token apologies, and only to the things that have been highlighted rather than things that haven't been made public, followed by continued harassment mean nothing to me. God might just decide dishonesty and trouble making is as bad as eating forbidden apples, after all the Bible has apparently changed tack over the years, and not be as forgiving as you assume. You might just end up getting cooked along with the rest of us. :hihi

 

[AngryAnt]

This is what is so interesting to me - or would be, if it wasn't so sad.

Christians are all about the honest worship of God, but are not above distorting the truth, ignoring the facts and actually being downright dishonest about science and history. Often many are not aware of the genesis (boom boom) of many of the myths but just accept them as they are handed down.

There is also the obvious self-delusion, but we'll leave that aside for now.

Is lying for God OK? There is a long, long tradition of it. Our boys are simply part of that ongoing tradition - websites that masquerade as "science" as a front for Christian apology are only the digital manifestation.

 

[jayfox]

Yes your hypocrisy, preaching one thing and practicing another. You've apologised but still continued to tell lies and sh!t stir on this forum. Token apologies, and only to the things that have been highlighted rather than things that haven't been made public, followed by continued harassment mean nothing to me. God might just decide dishonesty and trouble making is as bad as eating forbidden apples, after all the Bible has apparently changed tack over the years, and not be as forgiving as you assume. You might just end up getting cooked along with the rest of us. :hihi

Firstly, I do not continue to tell lies and the first instance was a misunderstanding and not a lie anyway. Secondly, how do I stir on this forum? I have a few people that I have some fun banter with but I hardly ever had stirred anyone up have I?

Continued harrassment? Give me a break. I've questioned a few things that Mods have done in the past in relation to stuff like disclosing the contents of PM's etc. If that is harrassment then I am guilty but that is dramatizing it to 'Days of our Lives' proportions.

You are right about one thing. God will judge me one day and will look to the core of my soul and through all of my thoughts and deeds and if I am false and disingenuous then I will go to Hell. There is nothing surer. But I know my heart and my intentions and where my faith lies and, whilst very far from perfect, I am very satisfied that in most cases I am trying to do what God wants me to and that I am at least trying to be faithful to Him and I believe that He will look favourably upon that. I even still hold out hope that you will one day realise how wonderful a relationship with Him can be.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

You may call it ridiculous. I think it's fantastic. God knew we would disobey Him yet created us anyway and still gave us a chance to spend eternity in Heaven with Him, which we so clearly don't deserve.

The fact that you can't see how ludicrous the bold sections are is concerning.

He created us in such a way that we would disobey him (and that is our fault how?) and we deserve eternal torment because that is the way we were designed. :-\

The self-loathing that comes along with the Christian package is really quite ugly and sad.

 

[tigertime2]

OH MY OH MY another whacko creationist!

John Lennox is professor of mathematics and fellow in the philosophy of science at Oxford University.

http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/why-not-every-scientist-worships-at-darwins-feet-20080818-3x8u.html

What an absolute classic!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mindless Matter :clap

"In 2009, when the champagne is uncorked in celebration of Darwin's legacy, we might pause to consider the presuppositions we bring to the question of what his theory tells us about God. There are essentially only two options. Either the wonder of human intelligence ultimately owes its origin to mindless matter; or there is a creator. It remains a mystery to me why some people claim it is their intelligence that leads them to prefer the first to the second." :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

 

[tigertime2]

Firstly, I do not continue to tell lies and the first instance was a misunderstanding and not a lie anyway. Secondly, how do I stir on this forum? I have a few people that I have some fun banter with but I hardly ever had stirred anyone up have I?

Continued harrassment? Give me a break. I've questioned a few things that Mods have done in the past in relation to stuff like disclosing the contents of PM's etc. If that is harrassment then I am guilty but that is dramatizing it to 'Days of our Lives' proportions.

You are right about one thing. God will judge me one day and will look to the core of my soul and through all of my thoughts and deeds and if I am false and disingenuous then I will go to Hell. There is nothing surer. But I know my heart and my intentions and where my faith lies and, whilst very far from perfect, I am very satisfied that in most cases I am trying to do what God wants me to and that I am at least trying to be faithful to Him and I believe that He will look favourably upon that. I even still hold out hope that you will one day realise how wonderful a relationship with Him can be.

He that is without sin should cast the first stone - God Bless