Atheism

[evo]

God is His own explanation.

LOL.Well then so is the singularity.

He is infinite - requiring no beginning - remember at the beginning of the universe was a singularity - which means things like matter and energy were infinite apparently.

You make the assumption that the singularity was the start.Most physicist I've read either don't know or surmise Mtheory or many worlds.A result of a previous reaction.No-one 'knows' at this stage obviously.

Why must God be complex? God is a spirit who is beyond nature, does complexity mean anything in these terms?

"God is a spirit".What does that even mean?

What's a spirit? How does a 'spirit' create matter?

Saying God is spirit hasn't told me anything about God.

The God explanation explains why the universe 'works', there was a plan behind it.

It doesn't explain anytihng.You haven't even told me what Gos is yet.Or how 'it' creates matter.

Can matter be it's own explanation?

can God?

What of the laws of nature what is their origin?

What laws of nature? You don't believe in them(except when it's convenient.) You don't even believe in the law of cause and effect it seems.

 

[Djevv]

No need to explain that any more thanks Djevv. It's been mentioned befotre and I still think it's pretty arrogant and self-centred if God plucks kids from other religions and beliefs and takes them to his heaven.

I'm struggling here Rosy - if there is a true God then religion is irrelevant - or at least only relevant in how well it reflects the truth. Me personally I would have though it was comforting.

That still doesn't explain why God kills off the innocents/victims and lets the powers to be who make them endure such tyranny go unscathed.

I think I've done this one already .

 

[Djevv]

Their origin is the event which triggered the creation of this universe, obviously.

Of course it does, because we are talking about human definitions. Any human definition which postulates something beyond human comprehension becomes an infinitely more complex proposition.

God must be complex because it can only stand to reason that a creator must be at least as complex as the sum of their creations.

But God is beyond this universe so His nature is not describable in it's terms. In our terms complex means lots of interacting parts working together to make a functioning whole. But does this describe God? His name is I AM in the Bible, another interpretation is I WILL BE - if we take the second one we get a person with will and a plan. Simple.

 

[Djevv]

Human history has been littered with countless atrocities, massacres, sexual crimes, genocide, plain bad luck and so forth.

i find it impossible to believe that a caring, loving creator would allow this to happen.

And of course the christians will wheel out the free will argument but to me this has never proven anything.

if a caring loving god made us he would never have allowed his creation to be so barbaric and cruel, unexplainable and random.

if god exist he/she can go get *smile*ed.

Surely man is responsible for his own behavior? I reckon 99% of all the bad stuff that occurs on Earth is fixable if man had the will.

 

[Djevv]

LOL.Well then so is the singularity.

Isn't this a bit like saying a car or a computer is it's own explanation? Nonsense.

You make the assumption that the singularity was the start.Most physicist I've read either don't know or surmise Mtheory or many worlds.A result of a previous reaction.No-one 'knows' at this stage obviously.
"God is a spirit".What does that even mean?
What's a spirit? How does a 'spirit' create matter?

A singularity, as I understand it, is an impossibility, so I can understand why scientists don't find it easy to accept.

A spirit is an immaterial person - a mind without a body.

Saying God is spirit hasn't told me anything about God.
It doesn't explain anytihng.You haven't even told me what Gos is yet.Or how 'it' creates matter.
can God?
What laws of nature? You don't believe in them(except when it's convenient.) You don't even believe in the law of cause and effect it seems.

Same way as man does in a sense thinks and plans originally, then creates. The Bible says He spoke the universe into existance.

As for the stuff about the laws of nature, whaaaat ??? where on Earth do you get your material from, you need a new writer! Why on Earth would I reject the laws of nature which so strongly speak of a creator! Anyway, for an ultimate cause I think you must look beyond nature. Otherwise you have a universe originating from nothing - now thats really absurd!

 

[Disco08]

Surely man is responsible for his own behavior? I reckon 99% of all the bad stuff that occurs on Earth is fixable if man had the will.

We blame parents if their young children misbehave. Why isn't God subject to similar judgment?

Also, 99% is a terrible guestimate. We've been trying to find a cure for cancer and AIDS for years. What percentage of the earth's misery do you think those 2 things alone account for? Couldn't God just eradicate them? Then there's natural disaster which would take another huge chunk. Do you think we should have stopped the tsunami or the China earthquakes? God could have couldn't He?

But God is beyond this universe so His nature is not describable in it's terms.

What other terms do you propose we define Him in?

His name is I AM in the Bible, another interpretation is I WILL BE - if we take the second one we get a person with will and a plan. Simple.

I see. We can use the definitions written in a book to conclude that He's a simple proposition even though he's not describable in this universe's terms. Curious.

 

[Freezer]

With there being apparent 'conditions' on us getting into heaven, does that mean God doesn't love us unconditionally?

 

[Disco08]

Is it even possible to love at all conditionally?

 

[Tiger74]

Is it even possible to love at all conditionally?

Not according to my wife olice:

 

[evo]

Isn't this a bit like saying a car or a computer is it's own explanation? Nonsense.

Well I agree.But this is what your God relies on. I'm just trying to show you how ridiculous you sound.

Who built 'him'/it?

A singularity, as I understand it, is an impossibility, so I can understand why scientists don't find it easy to accept.

A spirit is an immaterial person - a mind without a body.

Same way as man does in a sense thinks and plans originally, then creates. The Bible says He spoke the universe into existance.

As for the stuff about the laws of nature, whaaaat ??? where on Earth do you get your material from, you need a new writer! Why on Earth would I reject the laws of nature which so strongly speak of a creator! Anyway, for an ultimate cause I think you must look beyond nature. Otherwise you have a universe originating from nothing - now thats really absurd!

How do the laws of nature speak of a creator?

As far as i can tell the keyt law of nature is the law of cause and effect.Your premise of uncreated God breaks the most fundamental law.

BTW.I can't see my Plastic Jesus again.

 

[Tiger74]

BTW.I can't see my Plastic Jesus again.

I can still see him

Maybe this is because he's gone to the G to break Buddy's kneecaps

 

[evo]

Traded him in. Biker Jesus is a dud.

Have got nodding Jesus now.Ask him anything and he'll say yes.


Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you

 

[Tiger74]

You've done it now....we will lose to the Hawks

Just because you could not see Biker Jesus, you should not have lost faith and turned to false idols. Now we will be doomed to spend 40 years walking in the desert.

Between you and MB64 picking us as certainties, its a miracle we win any games at all

 

[evo]

Surely you've gathered by now I'm not capable of faith.

As if I was going to take your word for it that he was really there.

 

[Rosy]

I'm struggling here Rosy - if there is a true God then religion is irrelevant - or at least only relevant in how well it reflects the truth. Me personally I would have though it was comforting.

What is a "true" God though? Different religions have different Gods and beliefs. Some even believe in reincarnation yet your God apparently pilfers their children for his own purposes.

I think I've done this one already .

Sorry Djevv I must have missed it. I've read back to the quote below that I was referring to but I can't see your explanation. Could you give me a link please?

When you question "should he stand back and do nothing" I wonder "should he punish the innocent victims or the enforcers who make them torture and murder?". Your question makes it sound like a conscious decision on God's behalf so I wonder how he makes the call who to punish. I don't understand what you refer to as "fair".

Surely an omniscient God is qualified to be a fair judge. If He finds a nation of people who ritually torture-murder their own children for selfish reasons, should He stand back and do nothing?

 

[Tiger74]

Surely you've gathered by now I'm not capable of faith.

As if I was going to take your word for it that he was really there.

Plastic Jesus delivered you a win over Buddy.....you have faith yet :angel:

 

[jayfox]

What is a "true" God though? Different religions have different Gods and beliefs. Some even believe in reincarnation yet your God apparently pilfers their children for his own purposes.

You are probably being provocative but I will respond anyway. God doesn't "pilfer" anyone's children for his own purposes. We are all 'His' children. If there is only one God and only one Heaven then He takes innocent children to be with Him in Heaven regardless of their parents belief. This is a wonderful thing. The other option would be to send them to Hell as their religions Heaven in non-existent. Would you prefer He sent them to Hell? Instead they get to live in a place that is so wonderful it is beyond imagination. THey get to live for eternity with the creator of the universe in a place designed for them ("In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. - John 14:2). If the Almighty Creator of the Universe prepares a room especially for you, you can guarantee that you will like it.

Sorry Djevv I must have missed it. I've read back to the quote below that I was referring to but I can't see your explanation. Could you give me a link please?

When you question "should he stand back and do nothing" I wonder "should he punish the innocent victims or the enforcers who make them torture and murder?". Your question makes it sound like a conscious decision on God's behalf so I wonder how he makes the call who to punish. I don't understand what you refer to as "fair".

Every person has sinned. We therefore live in an imperfect world where bad things do happen. To say that the powers that be get away with atrocities whilst the innocent suffer on Earth is certainly true in many cases but you have to rely on God's judgment after this life. Everyone will be brought to face God and take account of what they have done in their lives. These people will then be punished, as will all non-repentant sinners, for what they have done. Those who put their faith in Jesus have already have their punishment paid by Him. It may not be fair on Earth, and life rarely is, but this life is but the blink of an eye compared to eternity and you can guarantee that they will regret their actions and pay their penalties then.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

It may not be fair on Earth, and life rarely is....

Why is that though? Your God created it after all.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Surely man is responsible for his own behavior? I reckon 99% of all the bad stuff that occurs on Earth is fixable if man had the will.

What is your view on mental illness, especially sociopathic or psychopathic disorders? Is this a matter of will? Are they completely responsible, as they were born with the conditions (a 'gift' from god?), or at least are predisposed to this type of behaviour?

 

[Rosy]

You are probably being provocative but I will respond anyway. God doesn't "pilfer" anyone's children for his own purposes. We are all 'His' children. If there is only one God and only one Heaven then He takes innocent children to be with Him in Heaven regardless of their parents belief. This is a wonderful thing. The other option would be to send them to Hell as their religions Heaven in non-existent. Would you prefer He sent them to Hell? Instead they get to live in a place that is so wonderful it is beyond imagination. THey get to live for eternity with the creator of the universe in a place designed for them ("In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. - John 14:2). If the Almighty Creator of the Universe prepares a room especially for you, you can guarantee that you will like it.

I wasn't being provocative but typical of you to suggest that.  I was responding to a specific comment of Djevv's because I respect his opinions and was interested to understand more. I have no time for your preaching considering your hypocrisy on this site.  I simply don 't believe you're genuine or you wouldn't behave the way you do on here.

Having said that you talk of an "only one God" where I mentioned some religions have other beliefs including reincarnation.  You can spew forth quotes from the Bible but to me you might as well quote Dr Suess. It's just words and interpretations.  Other religions could post claims to support their own beliefs too. 

An advantage of being agnostic is not being blinkered to other people's beliefs and being free to respect the fact that many religions are "the" religion to the people who believe in them.  Therefore to me taking children to Heaven from a religion that doesn't believe in that fate is pilfering, stealing, kidnapping or whatever.   To me it seems very selfish to deny them the chance to reincarnate, or end up elsewhere, when their families would believe that's what had happened after they died.