Atheism

[Disco08]

There is a lot more to it than what you are saying. Jesus left Heaven, lived as a first century peasant of a subject race, was unjustly murdered for doing good, went to hell and suffered separation from the Father - all fo your sin. He still bears the wounds to this day. This is both suffering and sacrifice.

Why would Jesus go to hell? He was without sin surely? I did a bit of a search and most of the Christian sites I found say Jesus didn't go to hell between his death and resurrection.

What 'wounds' does His spirit in heaven bear exactly?

So, you can laugh at this silly argument all you like, but IMO coming down to earth to live like the rest of creation, suffering a painful death and then returning back to Heaven isn't a sacrifice for God at all. Suffering yes but what did He lose?

 

[Tiger74]

There is a lot more to it than what you are saying. Jesus left Heaven, lived as a first century peasant of a subject race, was unjustly murdered for doing good, went to hell and suffered separation from the Father - all fo your sin. He still bears the wounds to this day. This is both suffering and sacrifice.

When did he go to Hell, and how the heck did he get out of there? If Satan is as bad as he is, surely he would have kept Jesus down there to spite God, or even better, used the means Jesus used to get the heck out of Dodge.

 

[jayfox]

You can put as many emotive adjectives into the equation as you like but it doesn't change the fact that Jesus didn't die in a true sense because He's sitting in Heaven as we speak.

So then every Christian who has ever died has not died in the true sense? Because they are all sitting in Heaven as we speak as well and they all knew where they were going after death.

So what exactly did he sacrifice? His life an earth? As I've said (and I'm sorry to annoy and upset you but it's just a discussion Jay) that doesn't seem like a sacrifice at all to me. Perhaps you can tell me logically why it is?

I have tried to and I can't believe that you can't see that an omnipotent God who came to Earth, leaving behind just about all of His power, to give Himself over to a life of ridicule, mocking, torment, and a horrifically painful death, has sacrificed something? He had the power to destroy the Universe and start again but He loves us so much that He chose instead to die a horrific, mortal death for us. Why would any Supreme Being do that? And if He did, then how could someone say that it wasn't a sacrifice? I am astounded. And yet you still think this, and think that it is unfair that He will send you to Hell if you don't believe in Him? Amazing.

He didn't really risk anything because obviously he knew the outcome well in advance and all He relinquished was His temporary life on earth. Am I wrong?

Yes. Why suffer anything for a creation that constantly rejects you? Why suffer anything for a people that when you came to save them, rejected you, tortured you and killed you? Why suffer anything, even if you know the outcome, when you are omnipotent and have the power to destroy the Universe with a single word? I know my future after death, and I can tell you that if I gave my life up for someone else then I would hope that they considered it a sacrifice and weren't ungrateful for it.

I understand if you don't want to discuss it with me any more though. My blindness must be very frustrating to you.

To be honest it is. I continue to post on this topic because I would love for you to understand and to have a relationship with God and to what an amazing difference that makes in this life. I am sure that Djevv and TT2 are exactly the same. We spend hours on here and it is not for any personal gain I can assure you. It upsets me to see people so interested in a topic but not finding the answers that God provides. With God, this life makes sense. Without God, this life is a random chance that loses much of it's meaning and ends without any memory of it happening, which is largely pointless to the individual, especially once you are dead.

 

[Djevv]

I don't get that Djevv. How does God deal with sin in modern times through the sacrifice of Christ so long ago? How do you know God used to wipe out people for their love of sin but doesn't now? What basket does the recent China earthquake fall in to? Did God cause it? If so why did he want so many to die and why didn't Jesus' sacrifice earn them any brownie points?

The OT was the age of the law. This is how God related to people (in the main). Since Jesus we live in the age of Grace - forgiveness by faith is how you access it.

Rosy, earthquakes are caused by tensions built up in the earth's crust being released suddenly. They are a natural part of the way our world operates. As Satan is described as 'the God of this World' in the Bible I would ascribe blame in these matters to him before I would God. God does not (generally) judge sin in this way any longer.

Just one more point I would like to make. God ONLY moves and works on this Earth through His agents (us), via prayer, otherwise the world is owned lock stock and barrel by the enemy.

 

[jayfox]

When did he go to Hell, and how the heck did he get out of there? If Satan is as bad as he is, surely he would have kept Jesus down there to spite God, or even better, used the means Jesus used to get the heck out of Dodge.

Satan doesn't run Hell. This is a common misconception. Hell was made for Satan and his fallen angels to suffer in. Anyone who follows Satan, i.e. those who reject God as he is the founder of all evil, will go to be with him in suffering after death.

As for Jesus going to Hell, I would need to do more research on this. I believed that He went to Hades which is a place that people go to before Judgment and has a good and bad section if you like. Djevv may be able to correct me on this however.

 

[jayfox]

Still doesn't make sense to me Disco. I take that's supposed to mean pre-sacrifice populations were wiped out as punishment, worship me or I'll kill ya kind of thing, and post-sacrifice they just get banished to Hell. Did Hell exist pre-sacrifice? If God was responsible for populations being wiped out back then is he still responsible for it happening now?

God created the Earth in a perfect way but gave people the option of whether to obey Him or not. Satan tempted the people to reject God and we did. (He continues to do this every day and we still reject God every day, even Christians). The world then became a fallen place. A place with sin in it.

Where there is sin there is imperfection. There is also punishment for sin and living a hard life was people's punishment for sin. In a sinful world bad things happen, like earthquakes, tsunami's, tornadoes, floods etc. Does God control them. I'd say no. He 'allows' these things to happen for sure as, once sin entered the world, God allowed things to take their course. Had there been no sin in the world he obviously would have stopped these things from happening.

For a believer there is no fear in death as we know where we are going. So if God decides to allow us to be killed in a freak storm then we know that we go to be in a better place. To be with God as He intended, in a perfect place.

 

[Djevv]

Why would Jesus go to hell? He was without sin surely? I did a bit of a search and most of the Christian sites I found say Jesus didn't go to hell between his death and resurrection.

The apostles creed makes this confession - which is what most churches believe. This scripture is pretty plain as well. I am a bit surprised that these sites don't hold to this.

What 'wounds' does His spirit in heaven bear exactly?

His ressurection was bodily, if you read the gospels. He has two nail marks and a spear thrust.

So, you can laugh at this silly argument all you like, but IMO coming down to earth to live like the rest of creation, suffering a painful death and then returning back to Heaven isn't a sacrifice for God at all. Suffering yes but what did He lose?

OK I'll have a good roll on the floor :rofl :rofl :rofl

But seriously, why leave Heaven and Godhood in the first place?

 

[Disco08]

So then every Christian who has ever died has not died in the true sense? Because they are all sitting in Heaven as we speak as well and they all knew where they were going after death.

Well, whether or not they've died in a true sense all depends on what happens thereafter. If we accept that heaven is real then that's right, in a true sense they haven't died at all, they've just moved on to a much better place.

Why would any Supreme Being do that? And if He did, then how could someone say that it wasn't a sacrifice?

I say it's not a sacrifice because, and I'm repeating myself now so maybe you actually address these points directly - 1) He hasn't lost anything, He's sitting In Heaven right now and 2) He knew this is exactly how it would turn out. He didn't have to take a risk and he didn't have to relinquish anything. As I've already said to Djevv, I agree he suffered while on Earth but suffering does not equal sacrifice.

Yes. Why suffer anything for a creation that constantly rejects you? Why suffer anything for a people that when you came to save them, rejected you, tortured you and killed you? Why suffer anything, even if you know the outcome, when you are omnipotent and have the power to destroy the Universe with a single word? I know my future after death, and I can tell you that if I gave my life up for someone else then I would hope that they considered it a sacrifice and weren't ungrateful for it.

The fact that God loves us and was motivated enough to do what He did make it any more or less of a sacrifice on His behalf. If it was a mortal person who knew nothing of what his or her future would be after they were killed then yes, this would have been a massive sacrifice to make. For a deity who has known all along what the result will be, it's simply all part of His ultimate plan. Tell me, if this is how He wanted and planned it to happen, how can He possibly have made a sacrifice?

To be honest it is. I continue to post on this topic because I would love for you to understand and to have a relationship with God and to what an amazing difference that makes in this life. I am sure that Djevv and TT2 are exactly the same. We spend hours on here and it is not for any personal gain I can assure you. It upsets me to see people so interested in a topic but not finding the answers that God provides. With God, this life makes sense. Without God, this life is a random chance that loses much of it's meaning and ends without any memory of it happening, which is largely pointless to the individual, especially once you are dead.

Well, therein lies a big difference between us. I see plenty of meaning and beauty in this life and universe without having to fit God into the picture.

Why do you think it is, out of interest, that people like those of us on this thread who do not believe aren't touched by God? We're certainly all open to rational evidence and as you say, very interested in the topic. If God knows this and wants us to be with Him, why doesn't He just provide us with something that will convince us beyond doubt?

 

[Disco08]

The apostles creed makes this confession - which is what most churches believe. This scripture is pretty plain as well. I am a bit surprised that these sites don't hold to this.

If you google 'Jesus in hell' you'll find any number of sites discussing this. I looked at a few and this type of thing seems to be the common understanding:

Did Jesus’ soul go to Hell during the time in between His death and resurrection? There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into Hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “Hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the “realms” of the dead.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to described the realm of the dead is "Sheol." It simply means the "place of the dead" or the "place of departed souls/spirits." The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is "Hades," which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that Sheol / Hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to “Hell” because “Hell” is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

His ressurection was bodily, if you read the gospels. He has two nail marks and a spear thrust.

Yes I know that, but He is in spirit form in Heaven right? His mortal body would have been left behind like all other mortals wouldn't it?

But seriously, why leave Heaven and Godhood in the first place?

Because, as Jay says He loves us and was motivated to save us. That doesn't automatically make what He did a sacrifice on His behalf though. As I've asked Jay, what did He ultimately lose from this sacrifice? If you could frame your answer keeping in mind that all these events were part of His master plan I'd appreciate it.

 

[jayfox]

I say it's not a sacrifice because, and I'm repeating myself now so maybe you actually address these points directly - 1) He hasn't lost anything, He's sitting In Heaven right now and 2) He knew this is exactly how it would turn out. He didn't have to take a risk and he didn't have to relinquish anything. As I've already said to Djevv, I agree he suffered while on Earth but suffering does not equal sacrifice.

Okay. Let's look at this another way. You are happy with your life. You have a nice house and are very comfortable living where you are. You also have a son that you love very much who gets into trouble for doing the wrong thing in another country. The countries laws say that there is to be an extreme punishment for his crime but that you as his father could take the punishment for him if you wish to, thereby letting him go free.

The overseas government assure you that they will beat you mercilessly and do all kinds of torture to you but that after your punishment you will be allowed to go home and resume your normal life. Your son will not be touched. You agree to go over to save your son from that kind of punishment, you suffer terribly, but upon your return your son says to you that you didn't really make a sacrifice for him as you knew that you would be allowed to come home in the end anyway.

Would you think he was ungrateful? Should he have at least acknowledged your sacrifice? Or is he right in saying that you really didn't sacrifice anything, even though you suffered terribly for something you didn't do, in order to save someone you love from punishment?

 

[Tiger74]

Okay. Let's look at this another way. You are happy with your life. You have a nice house and are very comfortable living where you are. You also have a son that you love very much who gets into trouble for doing the wrong thing in another country. The countries laws say that there is to be an extreme punishment for his crime but that you as his father could take the punishment for him if you wish to, thereby letting him go free.

The overseas government assure you that they will beat you mercilessly and do all kinds of torture to you but that after your punishment you will be allowed to go home and resume your normal life. Your son will not be touched. You agree to go over to save your son from that kind of punishment, you suffer terribly, but upon your return your son says to you that you didn't really make a sacrifice for him as you knew that you would be allowed to come home in the end anyway.

Would you think he was ungrateful? Should he have at least acknowledged your sacrifice? Or is he right in saying that you really didn't sacrifice anything, even though you suffered terribly for something you didn't do, in order to save someone you love from punishment?

Bad example.  My Dad would feel that pain and scars for life.  A God doesn't feel those things, and when he get back home would be all perfect again.

More importantly, my Dad would not know if he would survive, how he would be scarred, and what tortures he would face.  The unknown is terrifying.

God knows all, and went into this eyes wide open.

 

[Djevv]

If you google 'Jesus in hell' you'll find any number of sites discussing this. I looked at a few and this type of thing seems to be the common understanding:

Did Jesus’ soul go to Hell during the time in between His death and resurrection? There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into Hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “Hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the “realms” of the dead.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to described the realm of the dead is "Sheol." It simply means the "place of the dead" or the "place of departed souls/spirits." The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is "Hades," which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that Sheol / Hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to “Hell” because “Hell” is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

OK I had a read too. Basically he went to what is commonly understood to be Hell, but if you want to be pedantic it was actually Hades .

Because, as Jay says He loves us and was motivated to save us. That doesn't automatically make what He did a sacrifice on His behalf though. As I've asked Jay, what did He ultimately lose from this sacrifice? If you could frame your answer keeping in mind that all these events were part of His master plan I'd appreciate it.

Suffering = sacrifice for someone like God. I mean God is God, he cant lose anything material can He? All He can sacrifice is Himself. Are you a lawyer? If not you've missed your calling ;D. Enough already on this topic .

Yes I know that, but He is in spirit form in Heaven right? His mortal body would have been left behind like all other mortals wouldn't it?

No, He has a ressurection body. And no I don't know anything else about it but I'll put it on my to do list of things about God I need to understand better.

 

[AngryAnt]

All this discussion verifies for me is that the Christian narrative of Jesus' sacrifice makes no sense if viewed objectively. It's clearly a fable that has great power if you believe and accept uncritically - God gave up his own son to save all of us sinners - but if you look at the narrative from the outside it's ridiculous given the fact of God's supposed omnipotence.

Just like most other aspects of the Christian cultural narrative, it comes down to faith and uncritical acceptance, but don't look to hard at the logic because then great shards keep falling away.

 

[Disco08]

Okay. Let's look at this another way. You are happy with your life. You have a nice house and are very comfortable living where you are. You also have a son that you love very much who gets into trouble for doing the wrong thing in another country. The countries laws say that there is to be an extreme punishment for his crime but that you as his father could take the punishment for him if you wish to, thereby letting him go free.

The overseas government assure you that they will beat you mercilessly and do all kinds of torture to you but that after your punishment you will be allowed to go home and resume your normal life. Your son will not be touched. You agree to go over to save your son from that kind of punishment, you suffer terribly, but upon your return your son says to you that you didn't really make a sacrifice for him as you knew that you would be allowed to come home in the end anyway.

Would you think he was ungrateful? Should he have at least acknowledged your sacrifice? Or is he right in saying that you really didn't sacrifice anything, even though you suffered terribly for something you didn't do, in order to save someone you love from punishment?

Yes I would, and it's a decent analogy Jay, with one major difference. I didn't plan the situation and create the environment that would see me have to endure this suffering on my son's behalf.

I would also argue that it takes a far bigger sacrifice to put yourself in a situation where you have no idea what the results will be. In your analogy, I agree I've made a sacrifice by copping this pain and torture but because I knew all along that I would be ultimately unaffected by it I see it as not that big a deal TBH.

 

[jayfox]

Bad example. My Dad would feel that pain and scares for life. A God doesn't feel those things, and when he get back home would be all perfect again.

More importantly, my Dad would not know if he would survive, how he would be scared, and what tortures he would face. The unknown is terrifying.

God knows all, and went into this eyes wide open.

Fair enough. I'm done. If you can't see that God sacrificed, literally Himself, on the cross then, again, then I see no point talking in about it. In fact, there's probably no point talking about any of this stuff as you can't even see the most basic of points and will not concede anything. I'd have thought that even the most hardened of atheists could see that, if the story of the Bible is true, that God made an almighty sacrifice for his creation. Apparently I was wrong.

Yes I would, and it's a decent analogy Jay, with one major difference. I didn't plan the situation and create the environment that would see me have to endure this suffering on my son's behalf.

I would also argue that it takes a far bigger sacrifice to put yourself in a situation where you have no idea what the results will be.

Thanks for being reasonable Disco. Others on here think it is a poor analogy and, whilst I admit it is not perfect (and what analogy re God can be?), I think that the point is obvious.

I would also agree that God knew He would have to sacrifice Himself prior to creating the Earth. There is a saying that 'He died for us before the Heavens or Earth were created'. What this is saying is that He created us knowing that we would reject Him but was still willing to sacrifice Himself for us, before He had even started, such is His love for us.

In your analogy, I agree I've made a sacrifice by copping this pain and torture but because I knew all along that I would be ultimately unaffected by it I see it as not that big a deal TBH.

Not a big deal is interesting. You still have to go through it. The pain. The torture. I don't know too many people who would consider that "not a big deal", even if you came out of it okay.

Multiply all that torture etc. by infinity when you are God and have experienced Heaven and have to leave there to come down to Earth to suffer. Seriously why would you bother?

 

[Disco08]

OK I had a read too. Basically he went to what is commonly understood to be Hell, but if you want to be pedantic it was actually Hades .

I'm not being pedantic at all. Hades is accepted to be the temporary resting place of souls awaiting reincarnation and hell is accepted to be the fabled Lake Of Fire where souls are sent to suffer for eternity. There's a big difference. Jesus was sent to Hades, so these people obviously have good reason to believe he was never in Hell.

Suffering = sacrifice for someone like God. I mean God is God, he cant lose anything material can He? All He can sacrifice is Himself. Are you a lawyer? If not you've missed your calling ;D. Enough already on this topic .

Fine, if you're not enjoying the discussion I'll leave it be. I still haven't seen any good reasoning from you guys though. As antman says, this story has fantastic metaphoric impact, but try and piece it together logically and things get very difficult.

No, He has a ressurection body. And no I don't know anything else about it but I'll put it on my to do list of things about God I need to understand better.

Fair enough. I always thought it was the soul that was sent to heaven or hell.

 

[jayfox]

I'm not being pedantic at all. Hades is accepted to be the temporary resting place of souls awaiting reincarnation and hell is accepted to be the fabled Lake Of Fire where souls are sent to suffer for eternity. There's a big difference. Jesus was sent to Hades, so these people obviously have good reason to believe he was never in Hell.

Christians do not believe in reincarnation so whoever posted that on their site is wrong.

Fine, if you're not enjoying the discussion I'll leave it be. I still haven't seen any good reasoning from you guys though. As antman says, this story has fantastic metaphoric impact, but try and piece it together logically and things get very difficult.

So why do 2 intelligent, learned people, amongst hundreds of others that I know, have no trouble in understanding it logically?

 

[Tiger74]

Fair enough. I'm done. If you can't see that God sacrificed, literally Himself, on the cross then, again, then I see no point talking in about it. In fact, there's probably no point talking about any of this stuff as you can't even see the most basic of points and will not concede anything. I'd have thought that even the most hardened of atheists could see that, if the story of the Bible is true, that God made an almighty sacrifice for his creation. Apparently I was wrong.

Jay you are taking this completely the wrong way. I am not arguing he was crucified, and I think we both accept the son of god bit comes down to a matter of faith.

What I am disputing is the degree of sacrifice we are discussing here. Personally I hold what Abraham was asked to do as being a much bigger sacrifice.

Abraham is a mortal, cannot "create" like God can, and at his age was assumed to have no more sons. Abraham had to take on faith that what he was doing was right, and that he and Issac would be rewarded. God did not need that faith, as he was in command of all, and would have known that Jesus would die, be resurrected, and return "home".

 

[Disco08]

So why do 2 intelligent, learned people, amongst hundreds of others that I know, have no trouble in understanding it logically?

As I said to Djevv, if you google 'jesus in hell', you will get a lot of hits (mostly Christian sites) discussing this topic and the ones I read all seem to give this conclusion.

Christians do not believe in reincarnation so whoever posted that on their site is wrong.
So why do 2 intelligent, learned people, amongst hundreds of others that I know, have no trouble in understanding it logically?

At the risk of offending you Jay, I'd say it's because you start with the presupposition that the story is real. There are intelligent people on both sides of these debates who continue to hold firm on their opinions so I think at some point it is obvious that factors other than intelligence are influencing people. I know, from my own biased POV which group of people I think that is happening to.

 

[jayfox]

At the risk of offending you Jay, I'd say it's because you start with the presupposition that the story is real. There are intelligent people on both sides of these debates who continue to hold firm on their opinions so I think at some point it is obvious that factors other than intelligence are influencing people. I know, from my own biased POV which group of people I think that is happening to.

Hah, Hah, Hah! So do I.