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Atheism
- Thread starter Disco08
- Start date
Disco08 said:
This goes to show the general misunderstanding regarding God on this thread. God cannot create more Son's as Jesus is God. The Trinity is made up of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, each part equally God. Saying God could create more sons is like saying that God could create more God. It doesn't make sense.
Why not? God isn't bound by restraints. If he can make a universe he can split himself into a billion if he wants surely?
Also, would Jesus have gone to heaven? If so, God wasn't really sacrificing his Son, He was just bringing Him home so He could spend more time with Himself.
Also, would Jesus have gone to heaven? If so, God wasn't really sacrificing his Son, He was just bringing Him home so He could spend more time with Himself.
Disco08 said:
I don't know if He could but there is no reason to so it is a mute point.
Yes. Jesus went to sit at the right hand of God the Father. They are all completely God and yet all completely separate entities at the same time. The best way that I can describe it is it is like having a glass of water and you leave a 3rd in the glass as water, freeze a 3rd and boil a 3rd into steam. They are all the same, just in different forms. Granted it is hard to understand for new believers or non-believers.
So in fact Jesus (God?) really didn't sacrifice anything by dying on the cross?
I only said it because you said that God making more God didn't make sense. I think it has to make sense because God isn't bound by any rules. If He wants to make more of Himself, He does it.
jayfox said:
I only said it because you said that God making more God didn't make sense. I think it has to make sense because God isn't bound by any rules. If He wants to make more of Himself, He does it.
Because logically it makes no sense. In the end He just ended up back in heaven with Himself (as He knew He would). That's not a sacrifice. A sacrifice is when you risk something or give something up. Sure His described death would have been painful but it was only temporary pain and quite frankly an absolute walk in the park compared to what he's putting billions of souls through.
Disco08 said:
A perfect, omnipotent, supernatural God becomes human flesh, suffers unspeakable torture and a horrifically painful and humiliating death, by His own choice when He could have stayed in Heaven and destroyed us all instead.He died to save people who reject, mock, hurt and disobey him every day of their lives. And you say He didn't sacrifice anything? If that is seriously your view then there is no point talking any further about it as it appears to me that you are blinded by your sin and pride.
You can put as many emotive adjectives into the equation as you like but it doesn't change the fact that Jesus didn't die in a true sense because He's sitting in Heaven as we speak. So what exactly did he sacrifice? His life an earth? As I've said (and I'm sorry to annoy and upset you but it's just a discussion Jay) that doesn't seem like a sacrifice at all to me. Perhaps you can tell me logically why it is? He didn't really risk anything because obviously he knew the outcome well in advance and all He relinquished was His temporary life on earth. Am I wrong?
I understand if you don't want to discuss it with me any more though. My blindness must be very frustrating to you.
I understand if you don't want to discuss it with me any more though. My blindness must be very frustrating to you.
Disco08 said:
God makes the laws and He doesn't break them. If He did He would be a sinner just like us! God may be omnipotent, but He will not do things that are against His nature.
Disco08 said:
This is the logical problem of evil (again). My only answer here is God made the universe the way He did for a very good reason - so greater good would come of it!
Djevv said:
But it's OK to ask others to break them. Thou shalt not kill only applies when it's convenient, but when there's so false idol worshiipers that need eradicating it's not that important? Didn't god also use His powers to send plagues and storms and the like to kill off a lot of people? This is an example of breaking His own rules surely?
Djevv said:
So why not just make it like that from the beginning?
I think the point Disco is trying to make is for mortals death is the great unknown. Even with 4,000,000,000,000 bibles, we still truly don't know what happens after death. No one can properly describe it or explain it, and even the Bible does not go into precise detail.
As such, for a mortal to sacrifice their life, they are making a huge leap of faith, that the consequence of their death will be outweighed by the benefit derived from it.
The problem with Jesus is he was NOT mortal in the true sense. Even if his human form was to die (which it didn't - he came back to life - something none of us can do), his existance as a God would continue. There is no leap of faith there, and even if the benefit of the death was considerable (paying for sins), the price paid is not compared to a mortal death.
As such, for a mortal to sacrifice their life, they are making a huge leap of faith, that the consequence of their death will be outweighed by the benefit derived from it.
The problem with Jesus is he was NOT mortal in the true sense. Even if his human form was to die (which it didn't - he came back to life - something none of us can do), his existance as a God would continue. There is no leap of faith there, and even if the benefit of the death was considerable (paying for sins), the price paid is not compared to a mortal death.
Djevv said:
I don't get that Djevv. How does God deal with sin in modern times through the sacrifice of Christ so long ago? How do you know God used to wipe out people for their love of sin but doesn't now? What basket does the recent China earthquake fall in to? Did God cause it? If so why did he want so many to die and why didn't Jesus' sacrifice earn them any brownie points?
The Old Testament describes how God killed entire populations (either himself via nature or by commanding his followers to do these deeds) because they were living in sin. I think for the most part this sin usually entailed worshiping another God.
Jesus' death on the cross was the act which somehow defied Satan and allowed God to permit the righteous to Heaven.
Jesus' death on the cross was the act which somehow defied Satan and allowed God to permit the righteous to Heaven.
Still doesn't make sense to me Disco. I take that's supposed to mean pre-sacrifice populations were wiped out as punishment, worship me or I'll kill ya kind of thing, and post-sacrifice they just get banished to Hell. Did Hell exist pre-sacrifice? If God was responsible for populations being wiped out back then is he still responsible for it happening now?
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either rosy. You're right about pre/post sacrifice punishment I think but I'll have to let those with more knowledge answer your other questions.
On your last question I would say logically God is responsible for everything that happens, including tragedy like the China earthquakes or the Tsunami, etc. Logically He has to be IMO. If you have the power to stop something (and you know in advance that it's going to happen) then surely non-action equals responsibility.
On your last question I would say logically God is responsible for everything that happens, including tragedy like the China earthquakes or the Tsunami, etc. Logically He has to be IMO. If you have the power to stop something (and you know in advance that it's going to happen) then surely non-action equals responsibility.
Tiger74 said:
There is a lot more to it than what you are saying. Jesus left Heaven, lived as a first century peasant of a subject race, was unjustly murdered for doing good, went to hell and suffered separation from the Father - all fo your sin. He still bears the wounds to this day. This is both suffering and sacrifice.
