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Are we going to win the 2024 wooden spoon?
- Thread starter Ian4
- Start date
Disagree
You need good players who want more opportunities coming into the club to help build a team around the elite talent you are drafting in. It’s about being smart with who you bring in and not spending the farm.
Houli and Grigg both came to the club when we were crap
If you look at Carlton’s team from last week players like Hewitt, Newman, Kennedy as examples are all playing good footy now and all went to Carlton when they were crap
Good drafting and good trading are not mutually exclusive
Its funny really, it probably depends on if you are a glass half full or empty type of person.
To win a premiership, you need the guns (we don't have our next set yet), but you also need the set of players that are the next rung down from there. To win that premiership, both sets of players are equally as important, the "not guns" need to have the work rate desire, and ability to support the guns, the guns need to do their thing, whilst also dragging the next group along.
I reckon if you went to 5 years before our premiership in 2017, and had a look at the team that played on that great day in September 2017 and took out the guns, would we think thats a premiership team?
Houli. Lambert, Nankervis, Grigg, Graham, Ellis, Broad, Caddy, Rioli, Castagna, McIntosh, Butler, Townsend, Astbury and Grimes.
Bit of a rag tag bunch of who we now know are superstars, but practically every one of them has had some level of criticism thrown at them bar probably Rioli.
I took 7 players out of that team, Martin, Prestia, Edwards, Cotchin, Vlastuin, Riewoldt and Rance.
If we think we can raise enough of a draft hand over the next 2 years to fill in those last 7 (btw with 5 years as a guide, we already have Shai, Balta and potentially Gibcus that could fill in some of those "gun" spots, do you not think we either have the players or the ability to draft / trade well to fill in the "not guns" list to build a premiership team. Obviously culture is the 1 thing we haven't mentioned, and is probably the most important part of getting a premiership team ready and thats why we need to change captains this year for me, if Bakes stays its him, if not its TT.
Not sure what you're trying to represent here but if you go back five years from our 2017 premiership only five of these blokes were actually on our list at the time. Can't in any way say that they did or didn't look like a bunch of premiership quality players.
OK take the 5 years out of it, but the point was without the stars, the list wasn't all that hot. We had players that knew their roles, and were good but not great players, but in the system we had they were perfect.
Now people look out our list and say our list is crap, not winning a premiership with that list etc, yet if we can plant some of those "stars" into our lineup over the next few years through the draft, and if we are lucky through FA too, then why couldn't we rebound quickly.
Tigerlove was giving reasons why if we finish bottom that we would be looking at 10+ years before we can compete again, despite having a list that when fit, isn't an 18th placed list. I'm trying to give that some context.
I've mentioned previously ad nauseum that I see this list build as that we are doing it in reverse to what we did for our last premierships. Ie. that list we built with the stars as we were low down the ladder, and as you've pointed out, most of those premiership players were added within a few years of actually winning the premiership, we are doing this one the other way around due to circumstance, get some of those "non stars" and then add the stars through the draft and potentially FA over the next few years.
100% one of the reasons we became a premiership quality side was our ability to find diamonds in the rough. This was especially important as Gold Coast & GWS were taking many of the draft picks as the entered the competition.
Do we have those diamonds in the rough for the next tilt? I'm not sure we do. I also think replacing the quality of the gun players you mentioned (7) in 2 years is a very tall ask. It all comes back imo to trying chase another premiership after 2020. Put us back at least 3 or 4 years in rebuild. Need a good 3-4 years of solid recruiting (with few mistakes) and evolution of youngsters and finding those diamonds in the rough for the lacking areas before we can become super competitive again. That's my half full glass view. Half glass empty view is that history shows it takes in the majority of cases where ultimate success has been achieved from wooden spoon position 8 years plus, the last exception being Brisbane which doesn't count being gifted their position by AFL subsidies.
Time will tell. In the meantime I'm content to live off the memories of 2017 (especially), 2019 and 2020 premierships.
Are we not the only team in afl history to win the spoon and not get pick 1,we have been screwed more than a pornhub hooker by the afl.
It will be tough to replace them in a couple of drafts, but when you look at where they were taking, if we get lucky and pick the right players, its not out of the question to be able to do it, but Toce needs to draft really well.
Martin (3), Prestia (6), Edwards (26), Cotchin (2), Vlastuin (9), Riewoldt (13) and Rance (18).
Time will tell on the other players, but we won't see if they have the ability and class to replace those premiership players until they've played 30+ games each. People tend to talk down out list on here, but I can see some good options to fill in a lot of those spots, but rightly so, we don't have many stars on our list and the 1 young star we do have had unfortunately lost 2 years to injury.
Interestingly these players were recruited originally in the national draft over a 7 year period 2006-2012 (Prestia obviously then much later by us) then another 5 years for ultimate success. Fits in with the 8-10 years for glory.
For a bottom up rebuild yes you are right. As in we draft the guns first and then fit the rest in after that.
If we manage to pull off the reverse list build, then you should be able to significantly reduce that 8-10 timeframe.
Who knows how long it will take but if you look at what could happen.
We need to draft 2 top line on ballers over the next two years. Add them to Taranto and Hopper and we have a good starting midfield. Lots of good judges rate McAuliffe highly and to me he could be a very good next level mid.
We potentially have key backs to build a defence around in Gibcus and Balta.
We desperately need key forwards and that has to be a priority in draft and trade in the next 24 months.
We need a quality developing ruck, trade or draft. A mobile one.
Keep 2 out of baker, Rioli and Bolton. Add promising players like Brown, Campbell, Smith etc. Lefau looks like he could be a 5-6 year 3rd forward.
That glass half full makes us not far off.
Money ball a few, all the top teams have had success in that space.
It can happen, all is not lost.
We need to draft 2 top line on ballers over the next two years. Add them to Taranto and Hopper and we have a good starting midfield. Lots of good judges rate McAuliffe highly and to me he could be a very good next level mid.
We potentially have key backs to build a defence around in Gibcus and Balta.
We desperately need key forwards and that has to be a priority in draft and trade in the next 24 months.
We need a quality developing ruck, trade or draft. A mobile one.
Keep 2 out of baker, Rioli and Bolton. Add promising players like Brown, Campbell, Smith etc. Lefau looks like he could be a 5-6 year 3rd forward.
That glass half full makes us not far off.
Money ball a few, all the top teams have had success in that space.
It can happen, all is not lost.
People need to get the idea out of their heads that to win a flag we need to grow a team as good as our 17-20 version. That was a team that should have won 4 straight, and without injuries could have competed for another in 21/22.
Collingwood last year, the Dees in 2021, or the WEgales did not have a foursome to compete with Dusty, Cotch, Rance and Jack. then they didnt have a 2nd tier of SHEdwards, Grimes, Prestia, Vlastuin etc. The Cats in 2022 probably didnt either. We would have flogged the 2016 Dogs.
We obviously need to get better, but to win our next flag we dont need 4 all time greats, alongside another 4 or 5 who should have been AA each year between 17-20 if the selectors really wanted the best team.
Collingwood last year, the Dees in 2021, or the WEgales did not have a foursome to compete with Dusty, Cotch, Rance and Jack. then they didnt have a 2nd tier of SHEdwards, Grimes, Prestia, Vlastuin etc. The Cats in 2022 probably didnt either. We would have flogged the 2016 Dogs.
We obviously need to get better, but to win our next flag we dont need 4 all time greats, alongside another 4 or 5 who should have been AA each year between 17-20 if the selectors really wanted the best team.
Even though we had Edward’s, Cotchin, Rance and Riewoldt when Hardwick joined the club at the end of 2009 how many of his original players were in the 2017 Premiership side? The majority of it was built by drafting and trading. It took 7 - 8 years.
We’re going to need some very good draft hands in the next few years.
Clubs will be re-signing their bigger names to long term lucrative contracts, especially with the TPP increasing fairly substatially.
I wouldn’t be getting too fixated who we could entice via FA. For a rebuild. They would be icing on the cake. The hard yards will need to be done via consecutive drafts.
Clubs will be re-signing their bigger names to long term lucrative contracts, especially with the TPP increasing fairly substatially.
I wouldn’t be getting too fixated who we could entice via FA. For a rebuild. They would be icing on the cake. The hard yards will need to be done via consecutive drafts.
