Are There Too Many Risks Associated with Drafting Indigenous Footballers?

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: Are There Inherent Risks Associated with Drafting Indigenous Footballers?

Brilliant post.

Some excellent posting on this thread yourself.

There are "culture shock" issues associated with relocating Aboriginal players to a city like Melbourne, hence they require extra assistance to adjust. I don't believe questions of character should be specific to Aboriginals though, as hinted at by the thread title.

 

[Brodders17]

perhaps the title of the thread should be changed to:

should we base our recruiting on racial stereotypes?

 

[U2Tigers]

...I don't have a problem with the current thread title but perhaps "are there too many indigenous australians associated with drafting risks?" is a little more palatable for the culturally liberal cognoscenti.

Given the Tiges ghastly drafting history perhaps the bigger question should be “are there too many risks associated with Richmond drafting?

sorry my post was in jest, making light of the 4th change in thread name since the original post.

 

[Streak]

sorry my post was in jest, making light of the 4th change in thread name since the original post.

Are we up to 4? I'd lost count.

 

[Tigermad2005]

As a country we are all racist.
Until we treat all people the same and not have different rule for one and not the other thing will not change.

 

[Freezer]

As a country we are all racist.

Every country, in every part of the world, is inherently racist. And I don't believe it will change.

People are scared of that which is different - be it race, religion, culture, sexual preference, height, weight, physical difference, whatever - and they will seek solace in what, and who, they know to be 'safe'. It's a natural defensive mechanism to group with those that are similar - strength in numbers.

The level and degree of education that would be required worldwide to change people's thinking and behaviour is impossible to implement.

 

[Juffaricho]

Of course there are not "too many" risks with drafting Indigenous Footballers. Why? Because there are numerous examples of quality AFL indigenous players (both on and off the field) who have positively contributed to AFL teams and outperformed there drafting position.

What most recruiters do, for all young draftees (not just indigenous ones) is evaluate skill set, learning and development potentional and factor in a value for potential problems. Good kids, whether they are black, white, pink, brown or purple do not have a negative value factored in for potential behavioural issues. Kids who have potential problems simply do. So a talented kid like Troy Taylor drops from a top 20 pick to 51. It is only racists if a white kid who showed the same potential and problems doesn't drop as far.

So to be specific to the topic.....no there are not too many risks.... you just do your homework and evaluate the potential problems correctly with all draftees, indigenous or not. In fact some of the best recruiting is done by those who discover the talented problematic jewels and turn them around. They basically end up with a top player for a low price.

The reality is that racism is a common part of humanity and therefore one can assume that some AFL recruiters may display different levels of racism. Therefore due to the recent off field issues if you were to find some recruiters inflating the negative factor on some indigenous draftees next year then 2010 may become the best time to draft young indigenous footballs if they are being "pigeon holed" as problematic. Basically you may be able to pick up a top 20 player at pick 30, a top 30 players at pick 45 and so on.

Therefore if more indigenous players get into trouble this season and recruiters start inflating young indigenous draftees negative behavioral factor then I will start a topic titled.....
Are there too many risks associated with Not drafting indigenous footballers in 2010 because they are all slipping in draft order due to racism and there is some awesome talent available in Rounds 3 -5?

 

[Tigers of Old]

No

Agree. Well said.

 

[Col.E.Kurtz]

"Nelson Mandela was inside for 25 years but he hasn't reoffended in 14 years. And they say prison doesn't work."

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Re: Are There Inherent Risks Associated with Drafting Indigenous Footballers?

Absolutely agree Disco!

Landing in Bundaberg Qld (from a lifetime in Melbourne) in 1981, I got talking to two brilliant people from Geelong and after much reflection realised I had been racist in my views to that point. Back then I did go to the dictionary to try and sure up my naivity, and to recap:

rac.ism The belief, not substantiated scientifically, that each human race is characterised by distinctive attributes which determine behaviours and capabilities, and that a particular race is inherently superior; a social or political policy base upon this notion.

The trouble with racism is that many people struggle to fully understand they are stereotyping by race alone. Is all racism bad? I don't know the full answer yet, but I see more bad than good. The core issue is whether "a particular race is being characterised by distinctive attributes which determine a behaviour or a capacity".

The thread is racist, but this is where my "don't know" comes into it. If discussed, it can enlighten a very dull stereotypical view, as it did for me 30 years ago. That serves everyone well.

I've loved playing along side and against indigenous guys in Bundaberg, some who carried some pretty heavy burdens at times. I've seen the same bad behaviour in all races - it's not exclusive and it's certainly not pre-determined by their race - it's equally as frightening and damaging whatever the race.

My father-in-law (Bundaberg born and bred) would often say "they should've poisened the water-holes", he was glassed in the face by a group, but after countless discussions in the ensuing years, he too came to appreciate everyone on face value - I was proud of his shift in thinking. His original thinking was created by fear, as are most racist incidents or comments, underlying or plainly obvious.
I love the opportunities the AFL have given all young men, and in particular the indigenous. They have nothing so pre-determined by their race that makes them a certainty, but we are blessed by the abundance that make it and thrill us week after week.

Great post and I think you hit it on the head with the line about fear being a major factor

 

[pahoffm]

Just a quick study of the contribution of current indigenous players on 2009 lists, as listed in the post on page 11 of this thread.

In 2009, there were 82 indigenous players who have played a combined carrer AFL senior games of 5,187. That's an average of 63 games per player listed, senior and rookie.

To me, a 63 game average per indigenous player is a damn good return.

Of course this is an average only. Some players are more experienced and have played more years than others.

I have also done a team by team comparison but this is biased due to the distribution of players in terms of number of experienced indigenous players as part of the total group of players and also opportunities given too.

For example, in 2009, Sydney had 2 players only, Goodes & O'Loughlin, contributing 555 games at an average of 278.

Geelong had 5 indigenous players on their 2009 list for a total of 128 games, at an average of 26 games, with Matt Stokes & Travis Varcoe the only ones given opportunity thus far.

Some may consider these figures as flawed. Maybe.

From our AFL Indigenous average, 63 games, Club by club averages are as follows:
Adelaide 90 game ave
Brisbane 55
Carlton 42
Collingwood 52
Essendon 52
Fremantle 77
Geelong 26
Hawthorn 69
Melbourne 55
North Melb 46
Port Adel 91
Richmond 39
StKilda 53
Sydney 278
Westcoast 78
Western B'dogs 19

I apologise in advance if I have made an arithmetical error.

 

[pahoffm]

Just as a rider,

If some of you wish to know the total per team average compared to the Indigenous average, well of the calculations so far, for 2009 lists:

Adelaide
Total team average 65 per player
Indigenous average 90 per player

Brisbane
Total team ave 60 games
Indigenous ave 55 games

Carlton
Total team ave 60 games
Indigenous ave 42 games

Collingwood
Total team ave 68 games
Indigenous ave 52 games

Essendon
Total team ave 62 games
Indigenous ave 52 games

I have to leave this now.
I will come back to it later.

 

[hopper]

Every country, in every part of the world, is inherently racist. And I don't believe it will change.

People are scared of that which is different - be it race, religion, culture, sexual preference, height, weight, physical difference, whatever - and they will seek solace in what, and who, they know to be 'safe'. It's a natural defensive mechanism to group with those that are similar - strength in numbers.

The level and degree of education that would be required worldwide to change people's thinking and behaviour is impossible to implement.

I'm disappointed in your comments Freezer.

Firstly, prejudice and racism are not natural traits. They need to be taught and learned. For example, there are many examples of parents of one skin colour who have adopted a newborn baby of another colour - and there is no evidence that these babies reject their parents in early life on the basis of skin colour. It's not natural for these infants to do that. That type of fear and rejection requires encouragement, nurturing and downright brainwashing.

The natural defensive mechanism you refer to is an affect called dissmell. It's basically the rejection of something without having tried it. It's biological purpose is safety - and the reason most poisons smell bad. It helps us be cautious of bad smelling objects as they could be damaging to our health or wellbeing - ie, not worth the risk of sampling. The transference of this affect to racism requires training, but clearly it can be achieved.

But I think the most upsetting thing about your post is the adamant belief nothing can change. If we all took such a view I don't think much will be achieved in the world. But more than that, the distinct lack of hope (for Indigenous and non-Indig Australians) is the single factor preventing us from significantly improving things. Solving this CAN be achieved - and yes, it takes a large amount of will, particularly from our leaders. All that's needed is for the population to demand it of them.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Further to Phantom's stats, the following table demonstrates the growing presence of Aboriginal players in the VFL/AFL. Columns are year, number of players, matches played, percentage of total matches.

-Year  Pl Gms   %
-------------------
<1961  11 477  0.2%
1961   2  24  0.5%
1962   3  32  0.7%
1963   3  33  0.7%
1964   4  37  0.8%
1965   4  49  1.1%
1966   3  34  0.8%
1967   2  23  0.5%
1968   2   4  0.1%
1969   3  30  0.6%
1970   3  50  0.9%
1971   2  19  0.3%
1972   1  23  0.4%
1973   1  14  0.3%
1974   3  35  0.6%
1975   4  69  1.3%
1976   4  65  1.2%
1977   3  53  1.0%
1978   2  9  0.2%
1979   -   -  0.0%
1980   2  12  0.2%
1981   2  17  0.3%
1982   6  93  1.7%
1983   8 113  2.0%
1984  11 111  2.0%
1985   8 151  2.7%
1986   7  97  1.8%
1987  13 199  3.1%
1988  15 210  3.3%
1989  17 168  2.6%
1990  18 233  3.6%
1991  22 239  3.5%
1992  20 279  4.1%
1993  17 227  3.6%
1994  26 367  5.0%
1995  31 414  5.3%
1996  35 466  6.0%
1997  37 515  6.6%
1998  36 477  5.9%
1999  40 597  7.3%
2000  43 559  6.9%
2001  39 524  6.4%
2002  39 606  7.4%
2003  38 678  8.3%
2004  42 726  8.9%
2005  48 753  9.3%
2006  52 729  9.0%
2007  60 773  9.5%
2008  58 829 10.2%
2009  66 905 11.1%

Edit: slight amendment to some 1970's figures

 

[Tigers of Old]

Fascinating stats there L2R. Well done.

 

[Phar Ace]

Great work L2R and Phanto. These figures demonstrate a most positive trend. with increased participation comes.....increased participation.............surprise, surprise

 

[tigergollywog]

What a great thread. The old 'walkabout' risk, perpetuating the idea that black=unreliable has been around for a couple of hundred years now. I think the AFL in many ways leads this nation in overcoming racism by funding, finding, nuturing and showcasing indigenous talent and tackling racism head-on and I think this thread, by and large shows how far we have come and what an intelligent, equitable bunch us tiger fans really are.

 

[Freezer]

Firstly, prejudice and racism are not natural traits. They need to be taught and learned. For example, there are many examples of parents of one skin colour who have adopted a newborn baby of another colour - and there is no evidence that these babies reject their parents in early life on the basis of skin colour. It's not natural for these infants to do that. That type of fear and rejection requires encouragement, nurturing and downright brainwashing.

And there are significant numbers around the world, from all walks of life, who actively promote these prejudices. I'm not agreeing with it, I just think it's an impossible fight to win when there are so many who actively promote it.

The natural defensive mechanism you refer to is an affect called dissmell. It's basically the rejection of something without having tried it. It's biological purpose is safety - and the reason most poisons smell bad. It helps us be cautious of bad smelling objects as they could be damaging to our health or wellbeing - ie, not worth the risk of sampling. The transference of this affect to racism requires training, but clearly it can be achieved.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with the notion, but there are millions around the world who want their way, and only their way, to continue on through the generations. This whole war on terrorism is based on racism and a lack of tolerance by countries of other cultures, religions, etc. I simply think it's impossible to change the mindset of so many.

But I think the most upsetting thing about your post is the adamant belief nothing can change. If we all took such a view I don't think much will be achieved in the world. But more than that, the distinct lack of hope (for Indigenous and non-Indig Australians) is the single factor preventing us from significantly improving things. Solving this CAN be achieved - and yes, it takes a large amount of will, particularly from our leaders. All that's needed is for the population to demand it of them.

People have to want to be changed (and I'm not singling out any one stereotype here) and unfortunately I don't think a lot of those with deep seated prejucies want to be changed.

 

[YinnarTiger]

And there are significant numbers around the world, from all walks of life, who actively promote these prejudices. I'm not agreeing with it, I just think it's an impossible fight to win when there are so many who actively promote it.

300 years ago there were significant numbers of people from around the world who approved of slavery.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with the notion, but there are millions around the world who want their way, and only their way, to continue on through the generations. This whole war on terrorism is based on racism and a lack of tolerance by countries of other cultures, religions, etc. I simply think it's impossible to change the mindset of so many.

People have to want to be changed (and I'm not singling out any one stereotype here) and unfortunately I don't think a lot of those with deep seated prejucies want to be changed.

In recent history, millions of mindsets were changed in South Africa. It may seem impossible now but in the future millions of mindsets may change in Israel and Palestine.

Back on topic it is obvious from the stats provided by Phantom and 12428 that mindsets are changing in the AFL clubs.

 

[tigertrue]

I think the question should be asked, should we recruit footballers who have poor behavioural records...

As others have said, Fevola, Hall, Cousins just to name a few are players with bad history,

Not to mention our No.1 draft pick, one Dustin Martin. Oh yeah, that's easily explained -nudgenudgewinkwink-

Would we be all jumping up and down if the thread was titled
"Are Irish footballers worth recruiting?"
No!!!

There are no Irish footballers. Gaelic is the indigenous code and they learn ours from scratch.

So generally speaking that would be a fair question to ask - assuming that is your point.


Still wondering about the Pope.

I know he was in the Hitler Youth ...