Are There Too Many Risks Associated with Drafting Indigenous Footballers?

[mld]

Re: Are There Inherent Risks Associated with Drafting Indigenous Footballers?

Absolutely agree Disco!

Landing in Bundaberg Qld (from a lifetime in Melbourne) in 1981, I got talking to two brilliant people from Geelong and after much reflection realised I had been racist in my views to that point. Back then I did go to the dictionary to try and sure up my naivity, and to recap:

rac.ism The belief, not substantiated scientifically, that each human race is characterised by distinctive attributes which determine behaviours and capabilities, and that a particular race is inherently superior; a social or political policy base upon this notion.

The trouble with racism is that many people struggle to fully understand they are stereotyping by race alone. Is all racism bad? I don't know the full answer yet, but I see more bad than good. The core issue is whether "a particular race is being characterised by distinctive attributes which determine a behaviour or a capacity".

The thread is racist, but this is where my "don't know" comes into it. If discussed, it can enlighten a very dull stereotypical view, as it did for me 30 years ago. That serves everyone well.

I've loved playing along side and against indigenous guys in Bundaberg, some who carried some pretty heavy burdens at times. I've seen the same bad behaviour in all races - it's not exclusive and it's certainly not pre-determined by their race - it's equally as frightening and damaging whatever the race.

My father-in-law (Bundaberg born and bred) would often say "they should've poisened the water-holes", he was glassed in the face by a group, but after countless discussions in the ensuing years, he too came to appreciate everyone on face value - I was proud of his shift in thinking. His original thinking was created by fear, as are most racist incidents or comments, underlying or plainly obvious.

I love the opportunities the AFL have given all young men, and in particular the indigenous. They have nothing so pre-determined by their race that makes them a certainty, but we are blessed by the abundance that make it and thrill us week after week.

Brilliant post.

 

[TigerForce]

Firstly, off-field behaviour has only been a recent concern, so it is useless to consider anything from the past. Secondly, are you suggesting that italians or greeks have never misbehaved? Oh dear.

No I'm not suggesting that, it's just that going by a 'race', we don't hear current Italian or Greek (or other race) players continually having off-field misbehaviours. Like you said, with the internet nowadays, we all gain quick information on what happens with AFL players which bothers me most times because it is their privacy no matter how serious a case is. I'm more against the media in these issues (e.g. the Lovett case).

 

[Tigermad2005]

Time to move on.

 

[lamb22]

Two of the greatest players of our game are Gary Ablett Senior and Wayne Carey . Both have demonstrated umfortunate and appalling off field behaviour.

Using the logic of the originator of this thread we should steer clear of once in a generation talented white power forwards.

If the supporters of the notion of this thread cannot understand the above analogy and that it is counter productive and absurd, let alone racist, to base recruiting decisions on the indiscretions of past players of a particular race then they dont understand much!

 

[TigerForce]

Two of the greatest players of our game are Gary Ablett Senior and Wayne Carey . Both have demonstrated umfortunate and appalling off field behaviour.

Using the logic of the originator of this thread we should steer clear of once in a generation talented white power forwards.

If the supporters of the notion of this thread cannot understand the above analogy and that it is counter productive and absurd, let alone racist, to base recruiting decisions on the indiscretions of past players of a particular race then they dont understand much!

Ablett snr and Carey demonstrated that behaviour AFTER their careers not before or during as some indigenous players currently show. That's why I originally posted the word 'troublesome' to be placed in the title of the thread as this topic is talking about troublesome indigenous players. If someone wanted to start discussion on whether we should draft troublesome non-indigenous players, then the topic would be Are There Too Many Risks Associated with Drafting troublesome non-indigenous Footballers?

If we knew Troy Taylor was previously in trouble then this would have been a question for our recruiters to ponder on before recruiting him and taking a risk of delisting him at our expense if he got in trouble again. As for other indigenous players with no off-field problems, then this question does not relate to them.

 

[RedanTiger]

An example is that Italians or Greeks have been playing VFL/AFL footy for a long time, but there's never been a time when a number / group of Italians or Greeks (or name another race) that have been in off-field problems consistently.

And yet the new A-league comp was started to avoid the racial gang fights that were a feature of the previous soccer competition.

 

[Brodders17]

Ablett snr and Carey demonstrated that behaviour AFTER their careers not before or during

you sure about that???

 

[IanG]

Ablett snr and Carey demonstrated that behaviour AFTER their careers not before or during as some indigenous players currently show.

If you don't believe they behaved badly during their careers which was covered up by their clubs I've got a bridge to sell you. I've heard a lot of stories about Carey in particular.

 

[royce04]

I think the purpose of this thread was to get people talking and it certainly has achieved it,gdog threw the line out and has caught many fish.IMO topics should be talked about no matter how taboo or controversial as long as its done in an adult manner......play nicely kids.

 

[Rosy]

Firstly I'll say I think "racism" is a word that has different connotations for different people. I don't think it's racist in any bad manner to think a lot of Indigenous players are exciting and instinctive, same as I don't think it's racist to say a lot of fast runners are black. There are patterns, and exceptions for every race and culture. I think we should embrace the differences and love and learn from each other.

I don't think we owe aboriginals any favours as far as playing AFL goes and I don't think they should have separate rules/conditions as has been alluded to.

AFL players shouldn't be seen as Indigenous, non-indigenous, Irish, red headed etc as far as contracts and conditions go. They are all drafted as players, based on the merits they've shown, and should all be treated equally imo. It has to be remembered that some have come from a completely different culture (some might substitute race) and might need extra guidance, whether it's from outback NT, Fiji or Tasmania.


I don't think there are too many risks in drafting Indigenous footballers. It's more about individual attributes and selecting the right characters. As with all players this day and age thorough study and assessment is carried out behind the scenes in order to draft the right personalities to handle the big time.

 

[U2Tigers]

not happy with the thread title can you please change it again.

 

[Rosy]

A pretty handy Indigenous Team of the Century (1995)

Backs:	Chris L Johnson	Darryl White	Bill Dempsey
Half-Backs:	Gavin Wanganeen,	Adam Goodes,	Norm McDonald
Centres:	Peter Matera,	Maurice Rioli,	Michael Long
Half-Forwards:	Nicky Winmar,	Stephen Michael,	Syd Jackson
Forwards:	Chris Lewis,	Michael O'Loughlin,	Jim Krakouer

Followers: Graham Farmer, Andrew McLeod, Barry Cable
Interchange:	Michael McLean	Byron Pickett	Michael Graham	David Kantilla	Ted Kilmurray	Peter Burgoyne
Captain:	Graham Farmer
Coach:	Barry Cable
Umpire:	Glenn James

A list of Indigenous players from 2009 doesn't show any trend of risk with their drafting.

Complete list of indigenous players

* Glenn McFarlane
* From: Herald Sun
* February 24, 2009 12:00AM


ONE in nine AFL players has an indigenous heritage. Here's a complete run down, club-by-club.

ADELAIDE
Andrew McLeod
Graham Johncock
Jonathon Griffin
Jarrhan Jacky
Tony Armstrong
Jared Petrenko

BRISBANE LIONS
Ashley McGrath
Jason Roe
Rhan Hooper
Albert Proud
Sam Sheldon

CARLTON
Andrew Walker
Eddie Betts
Joe Anderson
Chris Yarran
Jefferey Garlett *

COLLINGWOOD
Leon Davis
Anthony Corrie
Shannon Cox
Sharrod Wellingham
Brad *smile*
Johnny Bennell *

ESSENDON
Nathan Lovett-Murray
Andrew Lovett
Patrick Ryder
Leroy Jetta
Alwyn Davey
Courtenay Dempsey
Jarrod Atkinson

FREMANTLE
Des Headland
Antoni Grover
Roger Hayden
Michael Johnson
Stephen Hill
Michael Walters
Casey Sibosado *

GEELONG
Mathew Stokes
Travis Varcoe
Nathan Djerrkura
Steven Motlop
Adam Varcoe *

HAWTHORN
Chance Bateman
Mark Williams
Lance Franklin
Cyril Rioli
Cameron Stokes *
Carl Peterson *

MELBOURNE
Matthew Whelan
Aaron Davey
Austin Wonaeamirri
Jamie Bennell
Neville Jetta
Liam Jurrah

NORTH MELBOURNE
Daniel Wells
Matt Campbell
Lindsay Thomas
Warren Benjamin
Cruize Garlett *

PORT ADELAIDE
Peter Burgoyne
Shaun Burgoyne
Daniel Motlop
Danyle Pearce
Nathan Krakouer
Marlon Motlop
Wade Thompson *

RICHMOND
Richard Tambling
Shane Edwards
Jarrad Oakley-Nichols
Alroy Gilligan *

ST KILDA
Xavier Clarke
Raphael Clarke
Ross Tangatulum *

SYDNEY
Michael O'Loughlin
Adam Goodes

WEST COAST
David Wirrpanda
Liam Bedford *
Adam Cockie *

WESTERN BULLDOGS
Jarrod Harbrow
Josh Hill
Malcolm Lynch
Liam Jones
Brennan Stack

 

[glantone]

not happy with the thread title can you please change it again.

...I don't have a problem with the current thread title but perhaps "are there too many indigenous australians associated with drafting risks?" is a little more palatable for the culturally liberal cognoscenti.

Given the Tiges ghastly drafting history perhaps the bigger question should be “are there too many risks associated with Richmond drafting?

 

[lamb22]

Thanks for the list Rosy. I think this thread was useful in that it allowed prople to shine a light on a prejudice not based pn fact. Its easy to generalise of any group and say they're all like that and all like this. The list of players shows real people not a demographic.

Thegdog's point was that indigenous players were not worth the risk for all the trouble they caused.

The list of 80 plus names is a slam dunk to those claims and makes thegdog and his acolytes on here look fairly silly.

It shows a heap of quality footballers including brownlow medallists, Norm smith medalists, club champions, grand final winners and coleman medalists.

Thegdog is most welcome to tell us which players on the list have been in trouble with the law but at the same time have not also played good footy for their clubs. And then maybe he could provide a similar list for non idigenous players!

 

[HellsTiger]

No

 

[Rosy]

My answer to the thread question is definitely yes.  Similar to drafting any player it should be considered on individual merit and how the player can benefit our team structure and performance.

We need to bear in mind now that the topic title has changed there will be responses that no longer apply.  My comment above has now changed to a  definite No so I'll modify it.

 

[Tigerfan]

I reported this thread to the site mangement as 'totally inappropriate'.

The reasons for this were:

The title of the thread contains a negative bias aginst indigenous people.

'Too many risks' implies there are issues that wouldn't apply to white people.

They attempted a genocide now known as 'the stolen generation' based on that platform.

There were threads about Kane Johnson urinating on a wall, Cousins drug addiction, and Schulz driving under the influence of alcohol but none asked 'are white fellas worth the risk?'

I have no problem with a thread asking "was it worth the risk to recruit a guy who had a corrective institution record?'

My answer would still be: 'we are a football club that should recruit the best players available at the time and develop them accordingly'.

At some point we need to say to players that 'we don't want you because of your off-field behaviour'

If the best footballer in the country played for my club and he glassed his girlfiend , molested a child, raped someone, or caused a death then I would ask for them to be delisted irrespective of race.

Troy Taylor has allegedly been involved in an incident and this thread is taking the opportunity to point the finger at his race.

Not OK.

 

[Rosy]

I reported this thread to the site mangement as 'totally inappropriate'.

And instead of responding when you were asked for further details in regard to exactly what you were referring to you sent a second report and didn't respond to the reply sent to you for that either.

If you were going to ignore responses to your report and post it here anyway why report it 2 times?

 

[Tigerfan]

And instead of responding when you were asked for further details in regard to exactly what you were referring to you sent a second report and didn't respond to the reply sent to you for that either.

If you were going to ignore responses to your report and post it here anyway why report it 2 times?

I didn't think the first report went through because i got a net message saying the webpage couldn't be shown. So i tried again. I reponded to your request for a reason and then thought, I'll post if for all to see.

This should not be interpreted as a reflection upon your excellent efforts Rosy. All is fine at my end.

 

[pahoffm]

From a mathematical point of view, it would be an interesting exercise to comapare the GAMES PLAYED by indigenous v non-indigenous v all players drafted over the last 10 years.

It would give meaningful statistics in regards to:
1. Retention rates
2. Conversely, drop out rates, and
3. Returns to drafting clubs in terms of Games played.

It would be good to compare these with all players to see above v below.
Also, do some clubs do it better than others.