2013 Election Year Party Policies- Liberal

[tigergollywog]

I guess in reality the truth is soewhere in between yours and livers views. In political philosophy you end up studying a lot of 'theories of justice'. My conclusion after reading most of them is that it is very hard to legislate against "bad luck" in a fair and non-authoritarian manner; and without compromising man's entrepreneurial spirit.

In my view, any sensible political system is going to recognise that some people are going to end up better off financially than others. It's been that way since Plato was a boy.

Personally I'm glad Australia has resisted the urge to go the full socialism experiment while I've been alive.

I have friends who dropped out in year 9 and I have friends with multiple uni degrees. There is some sense of pleasure in seeing one of your mates who shovelled sh!t as a 15 year old apprentice now owning a fleet of escavators while another friend who went to Scotch and had all the social contacts in world struggles to pay the rent in his late 40s. It is not many other countries where a similar scenario would've played out.

Who knows, one day abbottoir workers may be as sought after in the market as plumbers now are. 20 years ago, who would've expected mining workers to be on 1/4 million per year. sh!t like that can only happen in relativelty free market economy.

some good points evo and placing your chips at the fulcrum of opposing arguments is a shrewd strategy. While on political theory, with particular relevance to social disavantage, I would however point to the work of Tony Vincent, who demonstrated that he could predict the likelihood of educational success and social outcomes (class) for a kid, going by their grandparents postcode. The point being, social disadvantage IS intergenerational, is not related to hard work and is termed disadvantage to make it quite explicit how it works.

 

[tigergollywog]

I guess in reality the truth is soewhere in between yours and livers views. In political philosophy you end up studying a lot of 'theories of justice'. My conclusion after reading most of them is that it is very hard to legislate against "bad luck" in a fair and non-authoritarian manner; and without compromising man's entrepreneurial spirit.

In my view, any sensible political system is going to recognise that some people are going to end up better off financially than others. It's been that way since Plato was a boy.

Personally I'm glad Australia has resisted the urge to go the full socialism experiment while I've been alive.

I have friends who dropped out in year 9 and I have friends with multiple uni degrees. There is some sense of pleasure in seeing one of your mates who shovelled sh!t as a 15 year old apprentice now owning a fleet of escavators while another friend who went to Scotch and had all the social contacts in world struggles to pay the rent in his late 40s. It is not many other countries where a similar scenario would've played out.

Who knows, one day abbottoir workers may be as sought after in the market as plumbers now are. 20 years ago, who would've expected mining workers to be on 1/4 million per year. sh!t like that can only happen in relativelty free market economy.

some good points evo and placing your chips at the fulcrum of opposing arguments is a shrewd strategy. While on political theory, with particular relevance to social disavantage, I would however point to the work of Tony Vincent, who demonstrated that he could predict the likelihood of educational success and social outcomes (class) for a kid, going by their grandparents postcode. The point being, social disadvantage IS intergenerational, is not related to hard work and is termed disadvantage to make it quite explicit how it works.

 

[evo]

I think most people who are interested in political science would accept that (statistically speaking) you are less likely to make it into the 'mi8ddle to upper class'if your dad grew up in Sunshine than if he grew up in Hawthorn - it is not a particularly controversial claim.

But the interesting question are: ought we do anything about it? And if the answer is yes, what, if anything, can be done without at the same time putting pressure on liberal freedoms and stiffling enterprise and innovation.

It is easy to make the guy from Glenroy earn the same as the guy from Hawthorn - all you have to do is get the State to take control of all the means of production and then pay them the same wage. However history has shown, it is not a particulrlaly sucessful model over the medium to longer term. Moreover, you have to administer the State with an iron fist.THe existence of blackmarkets in countires that have gone the state-owned routes demonstrate that markets are very hard to stamp out completely.

 

[tigersnake]

I think most people who are interested in political science would accept that (statistically speaking) you are less likely to make it into the 'mi8ddle to upper class'if your dad grew up in Sunshine than if he grew up in Hawthorn - it is not a particularly controversial claim.

But the interesting question are: ought we do anything about it? And if the answer is yes, what, if anything, can be done without at the same time putting pressure on liberal freedoms and stiffling enterprise and innovation.

It is easy to make the guy from Glenroy earn the same as the guy from Hawthorn - all you have to do is get the State to take control of all the means of production and then pay them the same wage. However history has shown, it is not a particulrlaly sucessful model over the medium to longer term. Moreover, you have to administer the State with an iron fist.THe existence of blackmarkets in countires that have gone the state-owned routes demonstrate that markets are very hard to stamp out completely.

A lot of it is down to networks, contacts. If the dude from Sunshine starts a business is starting behind the Hawthorn dude, thats putting available capital aside. I don't like it, its patently unfair, but as you suggest I don't really see a clear way to regulate against it without causing other problems. Insider trading laws, full disclosure and tendering processes do counter the extremes.

 

[tigergollywog]

I think most people who are interested in political science would accept that (statistically speaking) you are less likely to make it into the 'mi8ddle to upper class'if your dad grew up in Sunshine than if he grew up in Hawthorn - it is not a particularly controversial claim.

But the interesting question are: ought we do anything about it?

But it IS a controversial claim IF you believe in the American/Australia dream that 'you can be anything you want to be if youre prepared to work hard enough etc etc". This is my whole point. It isnt true. It is MUCH easier to be anything you want to be if you grow up in Brighton, go to Scotch and you stand to inherit the house at Torquoy when the folks check out ...... than the black kid in broadmeadows.

I dont think 'ought we do anything about it?' is an interesting question, I think its a rhetorical one. Any fair person needs to do something about social disavantage and it comes down to a little bit of the old robin hood. Robin wasnt stiffling The Sherriff of Notinghams innovation or creativity. He was just doing a little bit of vigilante redistribution of wealth which the King should have been doing. Stuff like Mining super profits tax.

 

[Soda]

But it IS a controversial claim IF you believe in the American/Australia dream that 'you can be anything you want to be if youre prepared to work hard enough etc etc". This is my whole point. It isnt true.

I have seen numerous examples where it is true tg. As Alan Jeans asked - are you willing to pay the price?

My father-in-law came from italy when he was 8, with nothing. He couldn't speak the language, he was taunted and teased at school. But he has a work ethic second to none. He went to tech school at 14 and became an apprentice plumber. Despite being constantly discriminated against at work (resulting in him leaving 2 separate firms whilst doing his apprenticeship) he qualified. He worked 7 days a week for 17 years without a day off at one stage. He worked a full-time paid job and did private jobs at night and on weekends. He had 5 children and put them all through private school. He had no social advantage he simply had a desire to provide his family a better life and a work ethic to match. He certainly missed out on a lot though.

 

[evo]

But it IS a controversial claim IF you believe in the American/Australia dream that 'you can be anything you want to be if youre prepared to work hard enough etc etc". This is my whole point. It isnt true.

Maybe you should temper that claim, becasue we see it played out all the time. Eddie McGuire?

I live in a reasonable nice middle class eastern suburb where entry proice for a modest weatherboard is getting toward the million squid. I've got to know lots of people from the local footy where I coach juniors and they come from every walk of life. They originally come from Broady, Frankston, Brighton, Doncaster, Chile, Zimbabwe,Lebanon, China, England and everywhere in between. (No silver spoon in my mouth BTW either - Like many people on P{RE I imagine, I just went to a local high school that was reasonably rough)

It would be more accurate to say that "it's not always true".

 

[RfC77]

Or more to the point.. it's not always true but it's becoming more truthful as each year passes by. Some get a lucky break, some shaft others to get where they want to be but of course they'd never admit to it. People are becoming more fickle and dishonest with themselves and each other. The window of opportunity for those who want to get somewhere through sheer hard work is not as open as it once was.

 

[tigergollywog]

Maybe you should temper that claim, becasue we see it played out all the time. Eddie McGuire?

it would be more accurate to say that "it's not always true".

Sure, pretty much nothing is always true, even the sun wont rise one day. You got to realise, for every eddie mcguire, richard branson and sodas missus' dad, theres a million stuck on a treadmill of disadvantage. Parents who dont have the toolkit to inspire, teachers who are burnt out if they were ever any good, increasingly expensive tertiary education and Rupert beaming a current affair into their lounge rooms.

Eddie mcguire and richard branson are red herrings. They are like gold lotto. Giving an underclass a hope that if they keep shovelling *smile*, they can get a bigger TV and a trip to dreamworld.

I firmly believe that the best way to level the playing field would be to have one school school system only.

 

[tigergollywog]

I have seen numerous examples where it is true tg. As Alan Jeans asked - are you willing to pay the price?

I am a big fan of life as a metaphor for footy soda, but Yabby imploring chris mews to spew on the training track is different to an intergenerationally underclass kid trying to do her maths homework while dad beats mum up.

 

[Soda]

I am a big fan of life as a metaphor for footy soda, but Yabby imploring chris mews to spew on the training track is different to an intergenerationally underclass kid trying to do her maths homework while dad beats mum up.

That quote is from the 89 GF - was part of his half-time address. Just trying to point out the sacrifice required in order to achieve.

My FIL didn't go to the footy on Sat, he worked. He didn't go to the pub after work any night, ever. He didn't by takeaway food at lunchtime. Kids lunches were packed, every day. He didn't go to movies, he didn't hit the p*ss, he didn't spend money on anything that wasn't necessary. Basically, the price he paid was to give up what many of us would consider pleasures to give his kids a better opportunity than he was afforded. What he spent money on the best tools money could buy as they enabled him to get more work done.

I agree that some kids are starting from an impossible position, they aren't encouraged to attend school, clothed correctly, fed correctly, provided any sort of security or love (many times the opposite) etc etc. Do they have the same opportunity as my FIL - no. He had a roof, nourishment, was told to go to school and eventually tech school and was provided guidance along the way.

But for me, my children and I imagine your children there is no barrier to achieving anything they want - as long as they are willing to sacrifice.

 

[Liverpool]

I have seen numerous examples where it is true tg. As Alan Jeans asked - are you willing to pay the price?

My father-in-law came from italy when he was 8, with nothing. He couldn't speak the language, he was taunted and teased at school. But he has a work ethic second to none. He went to tech school at 14 and became an apprentice plumber. Despite being constantly discriminated against at work (resulting in him leaving 2 separate firms whilst doing his apprenticeship) he qualified. He worked 7 days a week for 17 years without a day off at one stage. He worked a full-time paid job and did private jobs at night and on weekends. He had 5 children and put them all through private school. He had no social advantage he simply had a desire to provide his family a better life and a work ethic to match. He certainly missed out on a lot though.

My best mates have Italian and Greek origin and have had similar stories as to the one you mention.

Their parents made sacrifices but also what helped them was that they tried to interrelate and co-exist with Aussies already here.
They encouraged their kids (my mates) to play Aussie rules and cricket in the summer....that way they met Aussie kids and made Aussie mates.

That opened doors for them moving forward as well.

So regardless of ones disadvantages....life is what you make it in a lot of ways.

 

[tigergollywog]

What he spent money on the best tools money could buy as they enabled him to get more work done.


But for me, my children and I imagine your children there is no barrier to achieving anything they want - as long as they are willing to sacrifice.

1. that old chestnut. I try that on the missus all the time and she says "*smile*, the chinese one at bunnings costs 1/4 as much and will last 1/2 as long" :hihi

2. Sounds like a fridge magnet. disagree. theres heaps of barriers to acheiving whatever you want. I wanted to be CHF for the Tigers.

 

[tigergollywog]

My best mates have Italian and Greek origin and have had similar stories as to the one you mention.

Their parents made sacrifices but also what helped them was that they tried to interrelate and co-exist with Aussies already here.
They encouraged their kids (my mates) to play Aussie rules and cricket in the summer....that way they met Aussie kids and made Aussie mates.

That opened doors for them moving forward as well.

So regardless of ones disadvantages....life is what you make it in a lot of ways.

youve got some seedy mates Livs. All the italians and greeks i know are really lazy and only play soccer.

 

[AngryAnt]

youve got some seedy mates Livs. All the italians and greeks i know are really lazy and only play soccer.

A: Why are Greeks no good at football?

A: Because when they get a corner, they always open up a fish and chip shop.

 

[Soda]

2. Sounds like a fridge magnet. disagree. theres heaps of barriers to acheiving whatever you want. I wanted to be CHF for the Tigers.

Don't forget Cleve Hughes once occupied that post

 

[evo]

youve got some seedy mates Livs. All the italians and greeks i know are really lazy and only play soccer.

they're the second or third generation. now they're like aussies

 

[Tigers of Old]

I've been to Italy, everything there is old and broken. Haven't fixed some of the buildings lying round the place for thousands of years.

 

[tigergollywog]

:hihi to 4 posts above.

 

[Liverpool]

youve got some seedy mates Livs. All the italians and greeks i know are really lazy and only play soccer.

And don't get me started on not having Vegemite on their cheese sangas