2013 Election Year Party Policies- Liberal | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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2013 Election Year Party Policies- Liberal

Liverpool said:
A perfect example is the debate about parental leave....Abbott wants to allow mothers who take leave to give birth to their child, to be able to simply earn the same amount of money they have worked hard to achieve before falling pregnant.

All that is a perfect example of Livs, is your continuous flawed assumption that someone who earns more has worked harder.

Thats what conservatives always try to make everyone believe ('you can be anything you want with hard work'). The reality is, the fella on $50K a year boning at the abattoir by day and driving a taxi by night has worked alot harder his whole life than the bloke whose folks sent him to Xavier, where he never amounted too much, but he made friends with the son of the bloke who scripted some crappy Jim's Muff Removal franchise and, as luck should have it, he end up on $200K not doing a whole lot, or contributing a whole lot to society either.

Hard work does not equal $. That is a conservative phalacy (sic).

Hard work + good luck + social advantage = $
 
tigergollywog said:
All that is a perfect example of Livs, is your continuous flawed assumption that someone who earns more has worked harder.

Thats what conservatives always try to make everyone believe ('you can be anything you want with hard work'). The reality is, the fella on $50K a year boning at the abattoir by day and driving a taxi by night has worked alot harder his whole life than the bloke whose folks sent him to Xavier, where he never amounted too much, but he made friends with the son of the bloke who scripted some crappy Jim's Muff Removal franchise and, as luck should have it, he end up on $200K not doing a whole lot, or contributing a whole lot to society either.

Hard work does not equal $. That is a conservative phalacy (sic).

Spoken like a true socialist TGW
But not quite true.
No guarantee hard work=$.
Fair chance, Hard work + good luck + social advantage = $.
Just about as much chance as hard work + good luck + some brains=$
It's not all about social advantage. There's probably a case or 2 that a "boner" scrimped and saved to send his kid to a good school and still made some handy connections. ;D
 
willo said:
Spoken like a true socialist TGW
But not quite true.
No guarantee hard work=$.
Fair chance, Hard work + good luck + social advantage = $.
Just about as much chance as hard work + good luck + some brains=$
It's not all about social advantage. There's probably a case or 2 that a "boner" scrimped and saved to send his kid to a good school and still made some handy connections. ;D

all fair enough. none of it is black and white.
 
tigergollywog said:
All that is a perfect example of Livs, is your continuous flawed assumption that someone who earns more has worked harder.

Thats what conservatives always try to make everyone believe ('you can be anything you want with hard work'). The reality is, the fella on $50K a year boning at the abattoir by day and driving a taxi by night has worked alot harder his whole life than the bloke whose folks sent him to Xavier, where he never amounted too much, but he made friends with the son of the bloke who scripted some crappy Jim's Muff Removal franchise and, as luck should have it, he end up on $200K not doing a whole lot, or contributing a whole lot to society either.

And because he went to Xavier and didn't work in an abbatoir, then he should be punished for that and some of his money distributed?

Like I said...its people who are jealous or have chips on their shoulders that approve of this money distribution and "equalisation".

What you speak of is akin to the USSR, North Korea, or a country behind the iron-curtain during the cold war.
Maybe you want that...I don't.

I like a system where people can be successful and not be punished for it. That people, either through hard work (go to uni, get a graduate position, move into management, etc), take a risk like a Lindsay Fox or a Richard Branson and start their own business from nothing.....or "connections" (not what they know, but who they know) even....are not punished and that people who are less fortunate can have an incentive to strive to do better and get out there and do something with their lives.

Just remember, if we don't have successful people and allow them to flourish, then the unsuccessful won't have jobs either ;)
Unless you want us working in one of Gillard's gulags or salt mines? :cutelaugh
 
That is a complete load of peptides Livs. The point i made is your logic is flawed because you equate hardwork with riches. All I did is debunk this notion and you spin it like Jonesy. Punish the rich blah blah blah.

I think you could randomly survey 4 billion poor people and 1 million rich people and make no correlation between hard work and wealth. As a matter of a fact, I reckon youde find a strong negative correlation between hard work and wealth.
 
tigergollywog said:
That is a complete load of peptides Livs. The point i made is your logic is flawed because you equate hardwork with riches. All I did is debunk this notion and you spin it like Jonesy. Punish the rich blah blah blah.

I think you could randomly survey 4 billion poor people and 1 million rich people and make no correlation between hard work and wealth. As a matter of a fact, I reckon youde find a strong negative correlation between hard work and wealth.

Sorry Livers, but on this point I agree with TGW. I work 1.5 jobs and am not rich by any means. I work hard (ish) and long hours (but also have had a daughter at Uni and help support 2 elderly parents, 1 each side of the matrimonial bed (figuratively,not literally ;D ) That status will probably change, along with my work hours, as I'm hitting along a bit now.

I totally disagree with the notion of Maternity Leave paid at that persons wage rate (to a maximum amount), I know they may have paid their taxes etc but it should be a set amount and then it should be means tested, imo. There's too much "easy" money to be had. Rein it in.
 
willo said:
Sorry Livers, but on this point I agree with TGW. I work 1.5 jobs and am not rich by any means. I work hard (ish) and long hours (but also have had a daughter at Uni and help support 2 elderly parents, 1 each side of the matrimonial bed (figuratively,not literally ;D ) That status will probably change, along with my work hours, as I'm hitting along a bit now.

I totally disagree with the notion of Maternity Leave paid at that persons wage rate (to a maximum amount), I know they may have paid their taxes etc but it should be a set amount and then it should be means tested, imo. There's too much "easy" money to be had. Rein it in.

I sincerely hope willo, you are working partially to support your mum and a father-in-law and not your dad and a mother-in-law. If its the later, you are in a world of pain that I cant begin to imagine. Your welcome on my side of the floor sister.
 
tigergollywog said:
I sincerely hope willo, you are working partially to support your mum and a father-in-law and not your dad and a mother-in-law. If its the later, you are in a world of pain that I cant begin to imagine. Your welcome on my side of the floor sister.

I'm in a world of pain mate. ;D
Nah she's a good old bat, usually, sometimes, well..every now and then,
but you've gotta do what you've gotta do (no inheritance either ;D )
Sister?
 
tigergollywog said:
the pitfalls of the internet. i was just being PC .... Brother.

At least youve got your old man there. swings and roundabouts.

;D
Yep, you've got to count your blessings
 
i was glad to hear today that the Libs wouldnt put asylum seekers and pedophiles in the same category, 'necessarily'. (i guess tho the 'necessarily' mean they do keep the option open.)
 
Brodders17 said:
i was glad to hear today that the Libs wouldnt put asylum seekers and pedophiles in the same category, 'necessarily'. (i guess tho the 'necessarily' mean they do keep the option open.)

A bit of "poetic licence" there Brodders.
Immigration Minister Brendan O'Connor has accused the opposition of comparing asylum seekers with paedophiles.
Senior Liberal senator Eric Abetz on Thursday backed calls from his party's immigration spokesman that communities be notified when asylum seekers are released from detention.
His comments come after a Sri Lankan asylum seeker was this week charged with the indecent assault of a university student in Sydney.
Senator Abetz was asked why the government had to inform people about would-be refugees when it didn't inform them about paedophiles who are released from prison.

"There is a register in relation to those sex offenders and the community has spoken in relation to that, that they do want a register," he told reporters in Canberra.
"If I might say, I wouldn't put the two (paedophiles and asylum seekers) in the same category, necessarily."
But Mr O'Connor said the comments were "the lowest form of politics I think I've seen in this country in recent memory".
"To blame thousands of people because of one allegation is the lowest level of politics which I thought could not get any lower, until I saw Senator Abetz today compare people seeking asylum with paedophiles," he told Sky News.
"It doesn't get any lower than that when he compared them with paedophiles and sex offenders and suggesting there should be the same type of register."
The minister called on Opposition Leader Tony Abbott to clarify the comments.
"If he's authorising the shadow minister for industrial relations and immigration to take us down this path, this is a sorry day for Australia," he said.
A spokesman for Senator Abetz denied he was making any links between asylum seekers and sex offenders.
"Senator Abetz's comments this morning were quite clear and claims that he was attempting to do that are totally incorrect," he said.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/abetz-slammed-over-refugee-comments-20130228-2f914.html#ixzz2MBcuACOe
 
willo said:
A bit of "poetic licence" there Brodders.

how so?
Abetz said: "If I might say, I wouldn't put the two (paedophiles and asylum seekers) in the same category, necessarily."

why add the 'necessarily'? why not categorically deny he is anyway trying to compare the 2?
 
Brodders17 said:
how so?
Abetz said: "If I might say, I wouldn't put the two (paedophiles and asylum seekers) in the same category, necessarily."

why add the 'necessarily'? why not categorically deny he is anyway trying to compare the 2?

He should have omitted the word necessarily no doubt.

As for O'Connor he should have asked what he ment by necessarily as if he truly believes in what he said to the press he would be one deluted individual.
 
Brodders17 said:
how so?
Abetz said: "If I might say, I wouldn't put the two (paedophiles and asylum seekers) in the same category, necessarily."

why add the 'necessarily'? why not categorically deny he is anyway trying to compare the 2?

Sorry, I was referring to the lead-in
"Immigration Minister Brendan O'Connor has accused the opposition of comparing asylum seekers with paedophiles."

I'm not comparing one to the other either. But I don't see any problem with having an "Asylum seeker registry". Which is what he was saying. Just another beat-up to score a point. If O'Connor didn't get the point Abetz was making, more fool him. No wonder Immigration is in such a mess. O'Connor surely would have more pressing issues to attend to, rather than trying to make a "mountain" out of this.
 
willo said:
Sorry, I was referring to the lead-in
"Immigration Minister Brendan O'Connor has accused the opposition of comparing asylum seekers with paedophiles."

I'm not comparing one to the other either. But I don't see any problem with having an "Asylum seeker registry". Which is what he was saying. Just another beat-up to score a point. If O'Connor didn't get the point Abetz was making, more fool him. No wonder Immigration is in such a mess. O'Connor surely would have more pressing issues to attend to, rather than trying to make a "mountain" out of this.
the libs have proposed a register in response to 1 asylum seeker being charged with a crime. despite their claims it is about helping them settle in their neighbourhood it is pretty clear they are using the incident to build fear.
i would think as immigration minister it is O'Connor job to challenge this nonsense from the libs.
 
Brodders17 said:
the libs have proposed a register in response to 1 asylum seeker being charged with a crime. despite their claims it is about helping them settle in their neighbourhood it is pretty clear they are using the incident to build fear.
i would think as immigration minister it is O'Connor job to challenge this nonsense from the libs.

Changing tack a bit there Brodders. Your original post was about comparing asylum seekers and paedophiles

Brodders17 said:
i was glad to hear today that the Libs wouldnt put asylum seekers and pedophiles in the same category, 'necessarily'. (i guess tho the 'necessarily' mean they do keep the option open.)

Abetz was asked the question..
Senator Abetz was asked why the government had to inform people about would-be refugees when it didn't inform them about paedophiles who are released from prison.

"There is a register in relation to those sex offenders and the community has spoken in relation to that, that they do want a register," he told reporters in Canberra.
"If I might say, I wouldn't put the two (paedophiles and asylum seekers) in the same category, necessarily."

O'Connors reply..
But Mr O'Connor said the comments were "the lowest form of politics I think I've seen in this country in recent memory".
"To blame thousands of people because of one allegation is the lowest level of politics which I thought could not get any lower, until I saw Senator Abetz today compare people seeking asylum with paedophiles," he told Sky News.
"It doesn't get any lower than that when he compared them with paedophiles and sex offenders and suggesting there should be the same type of register."

He mustn't have too much to do and his comprehension is surely lacking if he didn't understand what was said. Nowhere did Abetz say asylum seekers would go on the same "type" of register. No connotation there apart from those looking for one.

Do people on 427 visas go on a register? Do people on student visas? Are there any other Government registers?
Aren't you advised to register when you travel o/s.

Just more political point scoring. Storm in a teacup.
 
willo said:
Changing tack a bit there Brodders. Your original post was about comparing asylum seekers and paedophiles

Abetz was asked the question..
Senator Abetz was asked why the government had to inform people about would-be refugees when it didn't inform them about paedophiles who are released from prison.

"There is a register in relation to those sex offenders and the community has spoken in relation to that, that they do want a register," he told reporters in Canberra.
"If I might say, I wouldn't put the two (paedophiles and asylum seekers) in the same category, necessarily."

O'Connors reply..
But Mr O'Connor said the comments were "the lowest form of politics I think I've seen in this country in recent memory".
"To blame thousands of people because of one allegation is the lowest level of politics which I thought could not get any lower, until I saw Senator Abetz today compare people seeking asylum with paedophiles," he told Sky News.
"It doesn't get any lower than that when he compared them with paedophiles and sex offenders and suggesting there should be the same type of register."

He mustn't have too much to do and his comprehension is surely lacking if he didn't understand what was said. Nowhere did Abetz say asylum seekers would go on the same "type" of register. No connotation there apart from those looking for one.

Do people on 427 visas go on a register? Do people on student visas? Are there any other Government registers?
Aren't you advised to register when you travel o/s.

Just more political point scoring. Storm in a teacup.

no change of tack. just responding to your post. either Abetz used a very poor choice of words, by ending with 'necessarily', or he chose to use language that allows the connection.

in response to one asylum seeker being charged with a crime the Libs want a register and to let the neighbourhood know when an asylum seeker is moving in.
who is point scoring?
 
tigergollywog said:
All that is a perfect example of Livs, is your continuous flawed assumption that someone who earns more has worked harder.

Thats what conservatives always try to make everyone believe ('you can be anything you want with hard work'). The reality is, the fella on $50K a year boning at the abattoir by day and driving a taxi by night has worked alot harder his whole life than the bloke whose folks sent him to Xavier, where he never amounted too much, but he made friends with the son of the bloke who scripted some crappy Jim's Muff Removal franchise and, as luck should have it, he end up on $200K not doing a whole lot, or contributing a whole lot to society either.

Hard work does not equal $. That is a conservative phalacy (sic).

Hard work + good luck + social advantage = $

I guess in reality the truth is soewhere in between yours and livers views. In political philosophy you end up studying a lot of 'theories of justice'. My conclusion after reading most of them is that it is very hard to legislate against "bad luck" in a fair and non-authoritarian manner; and without compromising man's entrepreneurial spirit.

In my view, any sensible political system is going to recognise that some people are going to end up better off financially than others. It's been that way since Plato was a boy.

Personally I'm glad Australia has resisted the urge to go the full socialism experiment while I've been alive.

I have friends who dropped out in year 9 and I have friends with multiple uni degrees. There is some sense of pleasure in seeing one of your mates who shovelled *smile* as a 15 year old apprentice now owning a fleet of escavators while another friend who went to Scotch and had all the social contacts in world struggles to pay the rent in his late 40s. It is not many other countries where a similar scenario would've played out.

Who knows, one day abbottoir workers may be as sought after in the market as plumbers now are. 20 years ago, who would've expected mining workers to be on 1/4 million per year. *smile* like that can only happen in relativelty free market economy.
 
it seems the Libs decided Abetz's choice of words wasnt the best. They omitted the word "necessarily" the transcript of his speech.

also appears Abbott is talking rubbish (I know that will shock many) when he says asylum seekers are 'disappearing into the community'. they have to report regularly to the dept of immigration and there is no suggestion by anyone (reputable) that many arent doing this.

Facts flee as politicians take low road on asylum
Here's what Scott Morrison could have said in his interview with 2UE's Jason Morrison on Wednesday.
Jason Morrison wound up a long introduction like this: ''Isn't it amazing, you put people on bail, Australians who commit crimes, they have to report to police, but not these people no, they come and go as you please, that's our system, it's wrong, it should be changed, but it won't be changed, because these people matter more to the Australian government than the people who actually the Australian government is meant to serve.''
''These people'' are of course the 12,100 people released since November 2011 on bridging visas pending the processing of their refugee claims, 8700 of them since August last year when the Gillard government changed the rules to remove any work rights and force asylum seekers to wait until an unspecified future time when it is deemed they will not have received an ''advantage'' by coming to Australia by boat rather than waiting in processing centres in Malaysia or Indonesia.
And the reason the two Morrisons were talking about ''these people'' is that one of them - a 21-year-old man from Sri Lanka - had been charged with indecent assault.
So Scott Morrison could have said something like this: ''Well Jason, I assume you understand that seeking asylum is not a crime and I don't think we should vilify all asylum seekers on bridging visas because one of them has been charged with a crime and we certainly shouldn't compare asylum seekers with convicted criminals out on bail, but there are some legitimate questions to ask about how the government is managing the placement and care of these people.''
Or he could have said, ''Did you happen to know, Jason, that statistics suggest asylum seekers are 45 times less likely than other Australians to commit a serious crime and in fact fewer than five of the 12,100 on bridging visas have been charged with any kind of offence, so we should be very, very careful about implying they are more likely to offend than other people.''
But he did not say that. He had spent the day linking the charging of the Sri Lankan man with his concerns about the government's procedures for the community release of people on bridging visas.
Instead, he was quick to agree that ''this whole incident has demonstrated what you rightly pointed out are the weaknesses of this system, we've had this terrible incident … and what I said today is the minister should be undertaking a review immediately.''
And when Jason Morrison went on to say that decisions about housing asylum seekers should be made ''in exactly the same way we separate prison populations, we know there will be people who will try desperate things, that may do desperate things and you understand there are cultural differences, barriers, and you should be respecting your own citizens over the people who are not your citizens but are seeking to be it'', Scott Morrison went along with that argument also.
He said the government had ''no idea'' where people on bridging visas were living and ''you raise a very good question about whether it is appropriate to have people housed in facilities like this alongside young females''.
The Immigration Minister, Brendan O'Connor, says asylum seekers on bridging visas are required to report to the department on a regular basis, either in person or by phone. They are required to provide their residential address and advise if they move.
Michael Raper, of the Australian Red Cross
- which is contracted to provide transitional accommodation and support services, including a payment of 89 per cent of unemployment benefits, which without work rights is the only way asylum seekers can survive - says his organisation knows ''exactly where they are''. Commonsense would also suggest that, since ''these people'' are desperately hoping to be found to be refugees and allowed to stay in Australia, they would have a strong incentive to keep in touch with authorities.
(On Friday the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, continued to insist the government ''doesn't know where these people are'' and that they are ''just disappearing into the community''.)
What the government and the Red Cross do not do is publicise the addresses, and a segment on the rival radio station 2GB on Thursday morning might explain why.
The broadcaster Ray Hadley and some other media organisations discovered the address of the charged Sri Lankan man from court documents and went to the house.
The journalists described ''squalid'' conditions with mattresses on the floor. Goodness knows what would have been said had they found a comfortable house with furniture.
According to Hadley, ''locals who have tried to help the people tell me in the main they are friendly and compliant, with of course the occasional alleged sexual predator mixed into the group''.
Asked whether he knew of other cases involving asylum seekers, Scott Morrison referred to the most recent Senate estimates, where officials said one asylum seeker on a bridging visa had been charged and sentenced on a drug-related offence.
On radio recently, he said ''we unearthed a few weeks ago the case of people on bridging visas being housed adjacent to aged care facilities in Adelaide where they were cooking at night, letting the sprinklers off and the aged-care facility had to be evacuated at night''.
A night-time evacuation would undoubtedly be traumatic for aged-care residents, but cooking in the evening is hardly a crime.
Scott Morrison said a Coalition government would impose special ''behavioural protocols'' on asylum seekers over and above the normal requirements of the law.
These ''standards of conduct'' would be similar to requirements inside detention centres, he said.
One of the Coalition's own backbenchers, Russell Broadbent, said that amounted to ''vilifying'' asylum seekers and applying different laws to different people, and no such proposal had been considered by the Coalition party room.
There is a very valid debate to be had about what is going to happen to ''these people'' - under a Labor government when they have to wait for an unspecified period without work rights, living on less than the dole, or under a Coalition government when they will be released into the community on temporary protection visas, allowed to work, but never given the certainty of permanent residency. There is good reason to fear they might be exploited.
But even in an election year when they play their politics hard, politicians can keep that debate within the bounds of responsibility. Or they can try to make their case by stoking public fears. This week Scott Morrison chose the low road. Abbott backed him. He said Morrison was doing a ''magnificent job''.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/facts-flee-as-politicians-take-low-road-on-asylum-20130301-2fbjb.html#ixzz2MO8Xuvww