Woo Denial | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Woo Denial

Panthera tigris FC said:
Marketing fluff ain't science though. Either show the data that establishes the safety, which can be scrutinised, or you can't really expect people to accept your self-serving assertions.

Thats actually a big issue in accreditations. What one body/agency considers sufficient is rejected by another as insufficient. I have this daily in my gig, with product made and tested as compliant for the USA quite easily being able to be judged as completely non-compliant in the EU.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
As a lecturer in biochemistry, take it from me (or better yet check out an entry level biochem text), that paragraph is the biggest load of woo horsesh!t you will ever come across. To use terms like "life force" and refer to enzymes as a "force" should set alarm bells ringing. As for this so-called LEL, last time I checked heart disease was the #1 killer in the western world.

If the diet is lacking, it certainly wouldn't be in enzymes. Most enzymes are proteins which are broken down in the stomach and small intestine. Our enzyme levels are genetically regulated and aren't supplemented by diet.

As for Edward Howell - I don't know. What I do know is that spiel is rubbish.

Don't know why I'm doing this as all I really care about is the fact that this diet clearly helps my dog, but I decided to try and read up about it anyway.

Does this sound like woo (serious question given I know next to nothing about your field of expertise):

While our dog’s digestive glands/organs: stomach and small intestine; accessory organs: the pancreas and liver (secretes bile), all manufacture digestive enzymes; its body is not MEANT to do all the work. If we do not offer enzyme-rich foods, such as raw meat, vegetables, and fruits (which assists digestion) as a large part of our dog’s diet, then their metabolic processes may be less efficient as metabolic enzymes from the blood and other organs are transported to the intestines to aid the digestive process.

Food enzymes do a portion of this laborious job of pre-digestion, thereby leaving our dog’s body a sufficient supply of metabolic enzymes to draw on for maintaining and strengthening the many other bodily systems. As a result, the immune system, digestive system, hormonal glands and organs are in their optimum working order.

In a natural setting, our dogs and other pets would be receiving the benefits of food enzymes with just about all and every food eaten. In many homes, pet owners rely on commercial foods or cooked foods and this can be very taxing on their pets’ systems. Since we now know that vitamins and minerals require enzymes for proper utilization, it seems to me that to purchase fresh foods and then to waste time and the nutrient content by cooking them is not only financially costly, but an injustice to the dogs offered it. Furthermore, cooked food actually raises the WBC count! This will be discussed later on in the article.


This comes from a vet with a degree in CNC, whatever that is lol.
 
Disco08 said:
Don't know why I'm doing this as all I really care about is the fact that this diet clearly helps my dog, but I decided to try and read up about it anyway.

Does this sound like woo (serious question given I know next to nothing about your field of expertise):

While our dog’s digestive glands/organs: stomach and small intestine; accessory organs: the pancreas and liver (secretes bile), all manufacture digestive enzymes; its body is not MEANT to do all the work. If we do not offer enzyme-rich foods, such as raw meat, vegetables, and fruits (which assists digestion) as a large part of our dog’s diet, then their metabolic processes may be less efficient as metabolic enzymes from the blood and other organs are transported to the intestines to aid the digestive process.

Food enzymes do a portion of this laborious job of pre-digestion, thereby leaving our dog’s body a sufficient supply of metabolic enzymes to draw on for maintaining and strengthening the many other bodily systems. As a result, the immune system, digestive system, hormonal glands and organs are in their optimum working order.

In a natural setting, our dogs and other pets would be receiving the benefits of food enzymes with just about all and every food eaten. In many homes, pet owners rely on commercial foods or cooked foods and this can be very taxing on their pets’ systems. Since we now know that vitamins and minerals require enzymes for proper utilization, it seems to me that to purchase fresh foods and then to waste time and the nutrient content by cooking them is not only financially costly, but an injustice to the dogs offered it. Furthermore, cooked food actually raises the WBC count! This will be discussed later on in the article.


This comes from a vet with a degree in CNC, whatever that is lol.

Sorry for the delay in responding...NYE got in the way.

The problem I have with this type of article is that it make assertions without supporting them with references (unless you removed them). My own searching on this topic came up with lots of woo on the topic and I haven't found a single peer-reviewed paper describing the beneficial effects of plant/animal based enzymes (yet). My first thought would be that upon ingestion the enzymes would be inactivated and/or degraded in the acidic/proteolytic environment of the stomach. Enzymes, being proteins in this case are very sensitive to pH and the stomach also has enzymes that degrade proteins ie. pepsin. Some of the websites on this topic claim that the plant enzymes are resistant to these proteases and that they maintain their activity. These claims are always unsubstantiated by reference to the evidence, so it is hard to ascertain whether they are accurate or not.

The second issue I have with this and again this stems from the lack of scientific writing, as opposed to informal writing (or out and out woo in some cases), is that I can't see the benefit of this digestion by endogenous enzymes. We produce numerous digestive enzymes in our saliva, stomach and pancreas that deal with digestion adequately. We also require some amount of undigestible material (fibre) to maintain the health of our intestines through supporting the growth of beneficial bacteria and to 'keep things moving'. There is no real explanation that isn't obvious woo BS that outlines the benefical effects behind this 'pre-digestion'.

Finally, humans have been consuming cooked food for a long time (most experts would say ~250,000 years). That is plenty of time for natural selection to have an effect....ie. humans may have evolved to the change in dietary intake.

I seem to be harping on about the scarcity of scientific literature on the topic a bit, but that is critical issue as it is impossible to assess their claims and the evidence supporting them. The abundance of woo websites on the topic is also a BS alarm.
 
Cool thanks. Agreed about humans, but dogs certainly wouldn't have had time to adapt to eating processed or cooked foods. Googling pre-digestion gives quite a few results (some of them quite scholarly looking ;D) so I guess it's feasible, if seemingly unsupported. No literature is better than some literature which proves it's a totally bogus claim I suppose.

I remember one wiki entry I read on this yesterday had a footnote about food enzymes and pre-digestion. I knew I should have clicked it at the time 'cos I can't find it again now. I'll try again tomorrow.
 
First up, scholarly looking does not equal scholarly :). It is that pesky peer-review and scientific presentation (ie outlining of methods and presentation of data) that determines whether it would be considered scientific literature.

Like I said, I have only read a little on the topic, but it would seem that cooking food may actually increase it digestibility! An old paper from The Biochemical Journal shows that cooking meat actually makes it more digestible to proteolytic enzymes (the author ascribes this to the inactivation of inhibitors of the digestive enzymes by the heating process).

As for your claim that a lack of non-condradictory evidence (although it appears there may be) is some sort of support for the premise is flawed. The basis for the proposed detrimental health effects is not clear and where it is stated it is clear woo. If you come across something that clarifies this for me I would really like to see it.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
First up, scholarly looking does not equal scholarly :).

Hence the cheesy grin. I know a scientific page when I see one. They're usually the ones with a couple of paragraphs where I can understand maybe 25% of the words.

My other 'claim' was also not meant as an assertion that a lack of literature gives any support to a theory, only that it's better than a bunch of pages outlining how useless it is.

I'll see if I can find that page tomorrow.
 
Sorry to take a while, but my sleepy little town has suddenly become a thriving metropolis and I'm flat out keeping up.

Anyway, haven't had a really good look into it. Most searches turn up sites making unsubstantiated claims. The best I could find was this:

Neither Ganong nor thousands of scientific writers on the subject of digestion make mention of any value of intrinsic food enzymes in human digestion. There is one exception: Prochaska LJ; Piekutowski On the synergistic effects of enzymes in food with enzymes in the human body. A literature survey and analytical report. Med Hypotheses (ENGLAND) Jun 1994. In this article the authors mostly repeat the well understood effects of heat in breaking down vitamins, amino acids, and producing undesirable cross-linkages in proteins, particularly in meat. They do not produce a surfeit of evidence in support of the "enzyme theory", although they do point out that cooking beans increases their digestibility by destroying the trypsin inhibitors therein and they cite this as evidence that these enzymes can survive the digestive enzymes at least long enough to cause negative effects. They also present tentative evidence that there is some degree of synergy between some food enzymes and human digestive enzymes, a concept that would at least seem plausible. However they admit: "In the absence of active enzymes in food, the foodstuffs are still able to be digested and the nutrient release from food still occurs, but not at maximum efficiency." This is a far cry from "the enzymes present in raw foods take priority over secreted enzymes."

A search of Medline and the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, however, failed to turn up a single additional article in support of this thesis and four physiology, biochemistry, and nutrition textbooks, while elaborating on human digestive processes to the point of tedium, also did not mention any useful predigestion of food by the food's own enzymes.


Fairly damning, and not really interesting unless you can see exactly what constitutes 'tentative evidence'.

On a related note though I thought these studies were interesting:

All animals in the wild eat raw food. Various studies have been performed comparing extensively animals eating cooked versus raw foods. As early as the beginning of the last century, it had already been noted that animals in captivity eating cooked foods had a much higher mortality rate than those kept on raw foods. One such study was done at the Philadelphia Zoo and described in Disease in Captive Wild Animals and Birds in 1923 by Dr. H. Fox. Animals kept on cooked foods not only died earlier but also bred poorly. When their diets were changed to natural, raw foods, the health, life-span and breeding of the animals improved greatly.

Another well-known study was performed by Dr. Francis M. Pottenger through a 10-year research project and published in the American Journal of Orthodontics and Oral Surgery in 1946. Dr. Pottenger fed 900 cats the same food, except that one group ate it raw, while the other cooked. Cats eating raw, living food were seldom sick and gave birth to healthy kittens year after year with no health problems or pre-mature deaths. But cats eating the cooked version of the same food developed heart disease, cancer, kidney and thyroid disease, pneumonia, paralysis, loss of teeth, arthritis, birthing difficulties, diminished sexual interest, diarrhea, irritability, liver problems and osteoporosis. It was also noted often that the first generation of kittens from cats eating cooked food were more prone to sickness, the second generation were often born diseased or dead, and by the third generation, the mothers were sterile.


I can't remember now if we were already feeding the dog raw foods before adding the alfalfa or not. I think we were though. Anyway, like I said something quite obviously improved both his arthritis (which was diagnosed) and hot spots. Whatever it was occurred fairly dramatically about a week or two after the change in his diet, so unless it was related to that either arthritis isn't actually a degenerative disease or something random happened to change his physiology.
 
Disco08 said:
Sorry to take a while, but my sleepy little town has suddenly become a thriving metropolis and I'm flat out keeping up.

Anyway, haven't had a really good look into it. Most searches turn up sites making unsubstantiated claims. The best I could find was this:

Neither Ganong nor thousands of scientific writers on the subject of digestion make mention of any value of intrinsic food enzymes in human digestion. There is one exception: Prochaska LJ; Piekutowski On the synergistic effects of enzymes in food with enzymes in the human body. A literature survey and analytical report. Med Hypotheses (ENGLAND) Jun 1994. In this article the authors mostly repeat the well understood effects of heat in breaking down vitamins, amino acids, and producing undesirable cross-linkages in proteins, particularly in meat. They do not produce a surfeit of evidence in support of the "enzyme theory", although they do point out that cooking beans increases their digestibility by destroying the trypsin inhibitors therein and they cite this as evidence that these enzymes can survive the digestive enzymes at least long enough to cause negative effects. They also present tentative evidence that there is some degree of synergy between some food enzymes and human digestive enzymes, a concept that would at least seem plausible. However they admit: "In the absence of active enzymes in food, the foodstuffs are still able to be digested and the nutrient release from food still occurs, but not at maximum efficiency." This is a far cry from "the enzymes present in raw foods take priority over secreted enzymes."

A search of Medline and the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, however, failed to turn up a single additional article in support of this thesis and four physiology, biochemistry, and nutrition textbooks, while elaborating on human digestive processes to the point of tedium, also did not mention any useful predigestion of food by the food's own enzymes.


Fairly damning, and not really interesting unless you can see exactly what constitutes 'tentative evidence'.

On a related note though I thought these studies were interesting:

All animals in the wild eat raw food. Various studies have been performed comparing extensively animals eating cooked versus raw foods. As early as the beginning of the last century, it had already been noted that animals in captivity eating cooked foods had a much higher mortality rate than those kept on raw foods. One such study was done at the Philadelphia Zoo and described in Disease in Captive Wild Animals and Birds in 1923 by Dr. H. Fox. Animals kept on cooked foods not only died earlier but also bred poorly. When their diets were changed to natural, raw foods, the health, life-span and breeding of the animals improved greatly.

Another well-known study was performed by Dr. Francis M. Pottenger through a 10-year research project and published in the American Journal of Orthodontics and Oral Surgery in 1946. Dr. Pottenger fed 900 cats the same food, except that one group ate it raw, while the other cooked. Cats eating raw, living food were seldom sick and gave birth to healthy kittens year after year with no health problems or pre-mature deaths. But cats eating the cooked version of the same food developed heart disease, cancer, kidney and thyroid disease, pneumonia, paralysis, loss of teeth, arthritis, birthing difficulties, diminished sexual interest, diarrhea, irritability, liver problems and osteoporosis. It was also noted often that the first generation of kittens from cats eating cooked food were more prone to sickness, the second generation were often born diseased or dead, and by the third generation, the mothers were sterile.


I can't remember now if we were already feeding the dog raw foods before adding the alfalfa or not. I think we were though. Anyway, like I said something quite obviously improved both his arthritis (which was diagnosed) and hot spots. Whatever it was occurred fairly dramatically about a week or two after the change in his diet, so unless it was related to that either arthritis isn't actually a degenerative disease or something random happened to change his physiology.

I commend the research Disco, however, like I said earlier, I had no issue with the fact that the change in your dog's diet led to the observed improvements in health, just the basis for such improvement. The reason for the improvement is clearly unknown and there is no reason to subscribe to the woo claims to explain it.
 
I have a question regarding this woo business.

Is woo considered to be any theory that hasn't been scientifically proven, ie. the scientific community considers it to be dubious?

What I'm getting to, is that if someone comes up with a theory that they may have reason to believe has merit, doesn't the scientific community have a responsibility to disprove that theory on the same basis on which they prove theories?

If no one in the scientific community feels the urge to disprove a theory, does that theory get consigned to the 'woo' bin just because the scientific community feels there is no need for it to be investigated further or is the onus in the scientific community to disprove that theory?

I'm not sure I'm asking the question the right way but hopefully you'll get where I'm coming from.
 
1eyedtiger said:
I have a question regarding this woo business.

Is woo considered to be any theory that hasn't been scientifically proven, ie. the scientific community considers it to be dubious?

What I'm getting to, is that if someone comes up with a theory that they may have reason to believe has merit, doesn't the scientific community have a responsibility to disprove that theory on the same basis on which they prove theories?

If no one in the scientific community feels the urge to disprove a theory, does that theory get consigned to the 'woo' bin just because the scientific community feels there is no need for it to be investigated further or is the onus in the scientific community to disprove that theory?

I'm not sure I'm asking the question the right way but hopefully you'll get where I'm coming from.

I am pretty sure I understand your question. To answer it, my definition of 'woo' is any claim made that either lacks evidence to support the claim or contradictory evidence exists disproving it. There is no requirement to scientifically validate anything, however if you make a specific claim about something, I am entitled to ask you what the basis of that claim is.

Is that what you were asking?
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
I commend the research Disco, however, like I said earlier, I had no issue with the fact that the change in your dog's diet led to the observed improvements in health, just the basis for such improvement. The reason for the improvement is clearly unknown and there is no reason to subscribe to the woo claims to explain it.

It was the concept of replacing elements of a dog's 'wild' diet that convinced me to try this treatment, not LEL's or lifeforces. Until you quoted the site I'd never heard of them.

Do you know if any theories exist as to why the raw diet experiments produced such dramatic results?
 
Disco08 said:
It was the concept of replacing elements of a dog's 'wild' diet that convinced me to try this treatment, not LEL's or lifeforces. Until you quoted the site I'd never heard of them.

Do you know if any theories exist as to why the raw diet experiments produced such dramatic results?

It was you who cited the website that referred to LELs and life forces...I was just questioning the legitimacy of the claims.

Without the references to assess the evidence it is hard to make comment or postulate theories to explain the results. I would say that there is a chance that processed pet foods are a bit different now in 2009 than they were in the 1940s when the paper was published as our understanding of nutrition has improved.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
It was you who cited the website that referred to LELs and life forces...I was just questioning the legitimacy of the claims.

I realise that Pantera, I didn't say a thing about anything other than putting alfalfa in the dog's diet though did I? Anyway whatever, my bad. I thought you were saying I subscribed to these claims.

Panthera tigris FC said:
Without the references to assess the evidence it is hard to make comment or postulate theories to explain the results. I would say that there is a chance that processed pet foods are a bit different now in 2009 than they were in the 1940s when the paper was published as our understanding of nutrition has improved.

Gee, so would I. I just thought such stark results would have prompted a lot of research of which the results might be well known. Given your obvious knowledge in the area I thought you'd be a good person to ask.
 
Disco08 said:
I realise that Pantera, I didn't say a thing about anything other than putting alfalfa in the dog's diet though did I? Anyway whatever, my bad. I thought you were saying I subscribed to these claims.

No, you never explicitly said that you subscribed to those beliefs. You just pointed to that website as the source of your treatment. One might be forgiven for thinking that you had been convinced by the 'evidence' posted on that website (hence your use of the treatment). I was just pointing out the obvious BS that I saw there.

Gee, so would I. I just thought such stark results would have prompted a lot of research of which the results might be well known. Given your obvious knowledge in the area I thought you'd be a good person to ask.

Again, I can't refer to the results as "stark" without assessing the data myself. An unreferenced mention of the study is not sufficient to critically analyse the study.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
No, you never explicitly said that you subscribed to those beliefs. You just pointed to that website as the source of your treatment. One might be forgiven for thinking that you had been convinced by the 'evidence' posted on that website (hence your use of the treatment). I was just pointing out the obvious BS that I saw there.

I have no problem with that. I agree that a lot of it is over the top and unsubstantiated. However, one might also be forgiven if they were to expect a reasonable person to assume I was convinced by the results of the treatment rather than something I never mentioned. In fact, wouldn't you obviously expect that I'd be taking the treatment myself if I was convinced by the evidence concerning LEL's and lifeforces?

Panthera tigris FC said:
Again, I can't refer to the results as "stark" without assessing the data myself. An unreferenced mention of the study is not sufficient to critically analyse the study.

No worries. Sorry to bother you with it then.
 
Disco08 said:
I have no problem with that. I agree that a lot of it is over the top and unsubstantiated. However, one might also be forgiven if they were to expect a reasonable person to assume I was convinced by the results of the treatment rather than something I never mentioned. In fact, wouldn't you obviously expect that I'd be taking the treatment myself if I was convinced by the evidence concerning LEL's and lifeforces?

This is a thread about woo. We got into this discussion from the topic on naturopathy. My point about naturopathy and woo was strengthened by the woo BS on the website you linked to (this is not to say that all naturopathic remedies must be woo by definition).

I have stated several times that I don't doubt the improvement in your dog's health. My issue has always been with individuals making unsubstantiated or outright BS claims to sell a product. They intentionally use technical language that to the uninitiated may sound impressive, but upon closer inspection is BS. That is intentionally exploitative IMO.

No worries. Sorry to bother you with it then.

No bother at all. Do you have the reference so I can look at it?
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
This is a thread about woo. We got into this discussion from the topic on naturopathy. My point about naturopathy and woo was strengthened by the woo BS on the website you linked to (this is not to say that all naturopathic remedies must be woo by definition).

I have stated several times that I don't doubt the improvement in your dog's health. My issue has always been with individuals making unsubstantiated or outright BS claims to sell a product. They intentionally use technical language that to the uninitiated may sound impressive, but upon closer inspection is BS. That is intentionally exploitative IMO.

OK cool, totally agree with all that. :)

I actually found out a bit about Pottenger's Cats myself. It seems there could be a correlation (unbeknown to the research team at the time) between taurine deficiency in cats and the diseases observed because cooking food destroys taurine which is crucial to a cats well being. It also seems that some people are using this study to impress readers on the benefits of raw foods without drawing attention to ensuing research, basically solidifying your point.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
I am pretty sure I understand your question. To answer it, my definition of 'woo' is any claim made that either lacks evidence to support the claim or contradictory evidence exists disproving it. There is no requirement to scientifically validate anything, however if you make a specific claim about something, I am entitled to ask you what the basis of that claim is.

Is that what you were asking?

Sort of.

What if a fully qualified scientist made a discovery that could be proven but every other scientist refused to even consider it and therefore no further research was performed to prove or disprove that. Would that discovery be considered to be woo?

I agree that if you make a claim about something, you should be able to come up with the evidence, but if you want to disprove a claim and start referring to it as woo, then you should be able to provide your evidence as well.

Are claims made by people at the mercy of the scientific community? If so, then the scientific community has the responsibility to test each claim as it is made. If they make no attempt to test a particular claim, then they have no right to throw it in the woo bin.
 
1eyedtiger said:
Sort of.

What if a fully qualified scientist made a discovery that could be proven but every other scientist refused to even consider it and therefore no further research was performed to prove or disprove that. Would that discovery be considered to be woo?

The scientific community doesn't "refuse to consider" discoveries. In some cases there is resistance to a new theory, especially the ones that lead to a paradigm shift in the field. However, the weight of evidence can silence the most vociferous critics eventually. That is because instead of just "refusing to consider" critics of a claim point out the flaws in the argument or the problems with the method/data analysis/conclusions etc. If the original scientist wants it to be taken seriously they can address the points raised by the critics. You can see this in every scientific journal. Those 'scientists' who can't address the critics and press forward with their claims in other avenues cannot claim scientific evidence for their findings and these could be considered woo.

I agree that if you make a claim about something, you should be able to come up with the evidence, but if you want to disprove a claim and start referring to it as woo, then you should be able to provide your evidence as well.

Agreed. You must point out the flaws in the posited theory, not just out of hand.

Are claims made by people at the mercy of the scientific community? If so, then the scientific community has the responsibility to test each claim as it is made. If they make no attempt to test a particular claim, then they have no right to throw it in the woo bin.

If you want something to be considered scientifically verified, then it is at the mercy of the scientific process. The person making the claim is the one who carries the burden of evidence. If they don't want to provide it, then it isn't scientifically validated and therefore may be considered woo. I hope that clarifies it a bit. Remember that we are talking about people that are making specific claims about something. Asking what evidence they have for such a claim seems reasonable.


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