Woo Denial | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Woo Denial

TigerForce said:
You're talking about reincarnation.

Most claims of ghosts are human beings or animals who have died, so I'd assume they would look like what they were before.....as humans or animals.

The transparency of the ghost is all made up crap.

I don't believe in ghosts but it's always interesting to look at certain photos with strange illusions or apparitions though.

This brings back to the the grey definition of ghosts. Are they the spirits of dead people? If so, who knows what a spirit looks like?

You know the transparency of the ghost is made up crap, but their existence is not? Have you seen a ghost?
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
This brings back to the the grey definition of ghosts. Are they the spirits of dead people? If so, who knows what a spirit looks like?

You know the transparency of the ghost is made up crap, but their existence is not? Have you seen a ghost?

I don't believe in and have never seen ghosts, but just as Disco said, I know people who have which makes it interesting to investigate.

They don't have to look like Casper with the transparent white sheet over whatever body and two big eyes glancing at you.

They are just apparitions of a normal person or animal who's either standing or sitting idle somewhere.

A lot of people who are deeply mourned by the loss of a close person (husband, son etc..) are usually hallucinated by these apparitions through their conscious and subconscious mind (dreaming) such as an old neighbour of my Mum who lost her husband 6 months ago, feels very lonely everyday and now continues visiting most neighbours at about 8.30pm every 2 or 3 nights claiming that she spoke with her husband the night before which is boring and irritating everyone. She lives in the dark at night with only one light in the house and has a huge picture of her husband on the wall. These are the stories I DON'T believe in.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
Medical science (not to mention the pharmaceutical industry) would love to find more effective treatments and that can be established through controlled double blind studies.

I beg to differ on this statement as a general concept. As far as my experience goes (I have a bit having known a few chemists and my brother has been heavily involved at both research and corporate level for 20 years) this industry could care less about its patients. They care about getting people onto drugs, keeping them on drugs and making money. You might find a few idealists in research and whatever but when it comes down to it as long as you're buying their drugs they're happy and they're sure as sh!t not going to listen to anyone that tells them that you can control an illness through diet, or whatever better than you can with their synthetic drugs. If this wasn't the case the single diagnosis for ulcerative colitis wouldn't be an expensive, largely ineffectual drug which produces side effects likely to require the use of further drugs. How many people do you see taking a cocktail of prescribed medicine these days?

Here's another story actually. My dog suffered from hot spots and early stage arthritis. Having done a bit of looking into it I found a company that addressed these exact problems through supplements because commercial dog food doesn't give dogs the enzymes they need to properly breakdown their food and regulate other bodily functions. They're used to getting these enzymes in the food their prey eats, like grasses and weeds. The simple solution to this problem is to feed your dog alfalfa minced up. We've been doing this for 5 years (the dog is 9) and he's been basically free of these symptoms since. This natural treatment, if given to all dogs routinely would clear up any number of complaints. How likely do you think it is that the animal food and medicine industries will start researching this, and then if it's found to be beneficial start telling people not to feed their pets commercial food, including the 'science approved' types?
 
I totally agree with both of you regarding medical science, especially my latest diagnosis. :mad:
 
Disco08 said:
I beg to differ on this statement as a general concept. As far as my experience goes (I have a bit having known a few chemists and my brother has been heavily involved at both research and corporate level for 20 years) this industry could care less about its patients. They care about getting people onto drugs, keeping them on drugs and making money. You might find a few idealists in research and whatever but when it comes down to it as long as you're buying their drugs they're happy and they're sure as sh!t not going to listen to anyone that tells them that you can control an illness through diet, or whatever better than you can with their synthetic drugs. If this wasn't the case the single diagnosis for ulcerative colitis wouldn't be an expensive, largely ineffectual drug which produces side effects likely to require the use of further drugs. How many people do you see taking a cocktail of prescribed medicine these days?

Here's another story actually. My dog suffered from hot spots and early stage arthritis. Having done a bit of looking into it I found a company that addressed these exact problems through supplements because commercial dog food doesn't give dogs the enzymes they need to properly breakdown their food and regulate other bodily functions. They're used to getting these enzymes in the food their prey eats, like grasses and weeds. The simple solution to this problem is to feed your dog alfalfa minced up. We've been doing this for 5 years (the dog is 9) and he's been basically free of these symptoms since. This natural treatment, if given to all dogs routinely would clear up any number of complaints. How likely do you think it is that the animal food and medicine industries will start researching this, and then if it's found to be beneficial start telling people not to feed their pets commercial food, including the 'science approved' types?

I understand the cynicism and largely agree with the view that these companies (like most) want you to buy their product. My point is that an effective treatment is the aim of the pharmaceutical companies.

Just to point out that your 'natural' treatment (I am not a fan of the tag 'natural', as if it is superior by the fact that it is 'natural') according to your story is a scientifically sound treatment. Perhaps not endorsed by the pharmaceutical companies, for the reasons you state, but scientifically sound nonetheless.
 
Disco08 said:
I beg to differ on this statement as a general concept. As far as my experience goes (I have a bit having known a few chemists and my brother has been heavily involved at both research and corporate level for 20 years) this industry could care less about its patients. They care about getting people onto drugs, keeping them on drugs and making money. You might find a few idealists in research and whatever but when it comes down to it as long as you're buying their drugs they're happy and they're sure as sh!t not going to listen to anyone that tells them that you can control an illness through diet, or whatever better than you can with their synthetic drugs. If this wasn't the case the single diagnosis for ulcerative colitis wouldn't be an expensive, largely ineffectual drug which produces side effects likely to require the use of further drugs. How many people do you see taking a cocktail of prescribed medicine these days?

This is actually quite true. How often are pharma companies researching making an existing drug cheaper? Rarely, because its against their commercial best interests to make something that reduces their profitability.

Likewise cures for things like malaria. Why spend billions researching something poor people get and cannot pay for, when you have rich people queuing up for the next version of Viagra?
 
Tiger74 said:
This is actually quite true. How often are pharma companies researching making an existing drug cheaper? Rarely, because its against their commercial best interests to make something that reduces their profitability.

Likewise cures for things like malaria. Why spend billions researching something poor people get and cannot pay for, when you have rich people queuing up for the next version of Viagra?

Agreed. Capitalism at work. Although pharmaceutical companies use the scientific method to validate the efficacy of their products, there may be scientifically sound alternatives (ie Disco's dog treatment) that are not 'pushed' due their lack of profitability. This is quite distinct from 'alternative therapies' which have not been shown to be effective or have been shown to be ineffective (compared to a placebo).
 
Still, I think the reality is far from 'naturopathy is a scam'. How many natural treatments even get properly tested or studied, and if they are found to be effective, how often is it made public?
 
TigerForce said:
What I meant is what I wrote previously.

Huge majority of terrorist attacks are bomb explosions which asks a clear question as to why get on planes as pilots, go through security and fly into two buildings?

Why not just bomb the building just like the Oklahoma one was in 1993 etc...

Actually terrorists did bomb the WTC in 1993 with a car bomb, killing six but failing to cause any major structural damage. Learn your history son.

The Oklahoma bomb was a fertilizer bomb in a truck. Now, do you really think you could take down the WTC complex with such a device? Learn your history.

It's no wonder that conspiracy theories have such a hold over people.
 
Disco08 said:
Still, I think the reality is far from 'naturopathy is a scam'. How many natural treatments even get properly tested or studied, and if they are found to be effective, how often is it made public?

I have a colleague who does scientific testing on Chinese traditional herbal remedies. There is a plethora of data in the published scientific literature on 'natural' (???) treatments and their efficacy (or lack thereof). All of this publicly available. There is nothing stopping any scientist from doing ethical research on these treatemnts. Of course research by pharmaceutical companies that leads to an effective treatment are protected for a period of time by patent laws, which they are entitled to be IMO.

To profit from something that has been shown to be ineffective is a scam in my view.
 
antman said:
Actually terrorists did bomb the WTC in 1993 with a car bomb, killing six but failing to cause any major structural damage. Learn your history son.

The Oklahoma bomb was a fertilizer bomb in a truck. Now, do you really think you could take down the WTC complex with such a device? Learn your history.

It's no wonder that conspiracy theories have such a hold over people.

Umm I know the WTC was bombed in 1993........what's it got to do with 9/11??.

I'm only using the Oklahoma building as an example of office buildings being bombed. I'm not saying a truck bomb should've been used.

Learn your reading son.
 
TigerForce said:
Umm I know the WTC was bombed in 1993........what's it got to do with 9/11??.

I'm only using the Oklahoma building as an example of office buildings being bombed. I'm not saying a truck bomb should've been used.

Learn your reading son.

You questioned why they didn't bomb the WTC as they did in other terrorist attacks. Antman was just pointing out that they had already tried that, and failed.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
You questioned why they didn't bomb the WTC as they did in other terrorist attacks. Antman was just pointing out that they had already tried that, and failed.

Well after 8 years, I'm sure they can try again with better technology. Who's stopping them ?
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
I have a colleague who does scientific testing on Chinese traditional herbal remedies. There is a plethora of data in the published scientific literature on 'natural' (???) treatments and their efficacy (or lack thereof). All of this publicly available. There is nothing stopping any scientist from doing ethical research on these treatemnts. Of course research by pharmaceutical companies that leads to an effective treatment are protected for a period of time by patent laws, which they are entitled to be IMO.

To profit from something that has been shown to be ineffective is a scam in my view.

I agree, but your statement makes out that every treatment that falls under the heading of naturopathy is a scam, which is blatantly false IMO.

Just to avoid confusion Pantera - I use the term natural for any treatment that prescribes the use of a naturally occurring substance, like say alfalfa. This is as opposed to synthetic drugs which are not found anywhere outside of a laboratory. This seems fair enough doesn't it?

As for the publicly available literature, how many average people suffering from ulcerative colitis would know to go there to find answers? Wouldn't most people head to the doctor to be prescribed with the accepted medicine? For example Duckgirl has seen any number of doctors about her condition but not one of them told her to visit that site or referenced the German study that shows that yeast has obvious effects on people with IBD's. This is what I mean by 'made public'. What use is a study if people suffering from the disease they are relevant to aren't benefiting from it?
 
Disco08 said:
I agree, but your statement makes out that every treatment that falls under the heading of naturopathy is a scam, which is blatantly false IMO.

Just to avoid confusion Pantera - I use the term natural for any treatment that prescribes the use of a naturally occurring substance, like say alfalfa. This is as opposed to synthetic drugs which are not found anywhere outside of a laboratory. This seems fair enough doesn't it?

Of course there are naturally occurring medicines...most are! So yes, some naturopathic treaments are scientifically sound, however many have no scientific basis (again, having not been tested or failed the tests).

As for the publicly available literature, how many average people suffering from ulcerative colitis would know to go there to find answers? Wouldn't most people head to the doctor to be prescribed with the accepted medicine? For example Duckgirl has seen any number of doctors about her condition but not one of them told her to visit that site or referenced the German study that shows that yeast has obvious effects on people with IBD's. This is what I mean by 'made public'. What use is a study if people suffering from the disease they are relevant to aren't benefiting from it?

My reference to the literature was in response to your statement about the testing of natural therapies the availability of those results.

The lack of cutting edge treatments is an understandable failing of individual doctors though isn't it? The transfer of knowledge from the lab to the first line medical treatment (ie GPs) must be very difficult. This does not detract from the established efficacy of those treatments, nor lend support to treatments that have been shown not to work. I know of many GPs that suggest 'naturopathic' remedies to their patients - almost all of these suggested treatments are evidence-based.

Homeopathy? Scam - through and through.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
I have a colleague who does scientific testing on Chinese traditional herbal remedies. There is a plethora of data in the published scientific literature on 'natural' (???) treatments and their efficacy (or lack thereof). All of this publicly available. There is nothing stopping any scientist from doing ethical research on these treatemnts. Of course research by pharmaceutical companies that leads to an effective treatment are protected for a period of time by patent laws, which they are entitled to be IMO.

To profit from something that has been shown to be ineffective is a scam in my view.

How much profit is there in proving though that a commonly available food/herb/plant/etc is able to aid a problem? You cannot patent "an orange" (for example), so why would pharma companies (which fund the bulk of research) bother to look and assess these options?

I know universities continue to do their bit, but how much of this is being compromised now by the corporatization demands for research in unis?

This being said, big kudos to Gates and his foundation for pouring a bucket load of cash into the battle against malaria. Hopefully more follow his lead.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
I know of many GPs that suggest 'naturopathic' remedies to their patients - almost all of these suggested treatments are evidence-based.

Cool. So we can finally agree that naturopathy isn't necessarily a scam and that as a field it actually has many worthwhile applications?
 
Tiger74 said:
How much profit is there in proving though that a commonly available food/herb/plant/etc is able to aid a problem? You cannot patent "an orange" (for example), so why would pharma companies (which fund the bulk of research) bother to look and assess these options?

I know universities continue to do their bit, but how much of this is being compromised now by the corporatization demands for research in unis?

This being said, big kudos to Gates and his foundation for pouring a bucket load of cash into the battle against malaria. Hopefully more follow his lead.

Quite often the active ingredient is many times more potent/effective than the it is in its natural form and can be purified or synthesised and marketed as a drug, which is then protected by patent law. Many of our drugs were developed in such a way.

As for natural therapies, many of these are assessed for efficacy by medical researchers. Why don't more naturopaths do the research? It isn't hard and will lend credence to the treatments. Not establishing efficacy, beyond anecdotal evidence, seems slack at best.

It is up to the doctors to stay abreast of the latest treatments, be they drug-based or otherwise. The incentives to prescribe certain medications by the pharma companies does seem to conflict somewhat from the doctors' core responsibilities (best possible treatment) IMO. That is another debate though.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
Quite often the active ingredient is many times more potent/effective than the it is in its natural form and can be purified or synthesised and marketed as a drug, which is then protected by patent law. Many of our drugs were developed in such a way.

As for natural therapies, many of these are assessed for efficacy by medical researchers. Why don't more naturopaths do the research? It isn't hard and will lend credence to the treatments. Not establishing efficacy, beyond anecdotal evidence, seems slack at best.

It is up to the doctors to stay abreast of the latest treatments, be they drug-based or otherwise. The incentives to prescribe certain medications by the pharma companies does seem to conflict somewhat from the doctors' core responsibilities (best possible treatment) IMO. That is another debate though.

But if people hear "you don't need your bexadrill pill, just have an orange a day to prevent XXXXX" who the heck is going to buy the fully patented bexadrill?

As for naturopaths doing research, dollars will be an issue there. The organization I work for has a pharma test lab capability, and I can tell you right now its not cheap to do testing. This is especially the case when the tests need human subjects. Doing a verification test routinely is expensive enough, but to do enough to confirm the validity of a preparation, you are looking at a lot of dollars.
 
Tiger74 said:
But if people hear "you don't need your bexadrill pill, just have an orange a day to prevent XXXXX" who the heck is going to buy the fully patented bexadrill?

What has that got to do with establishing the efficacy of the orange? I am against someone saying "you don't need your bexadrill pill, just have an orange a day to prevent XXXXX" when the bexadrill has been shown to be effective, while the orange has not been tested, or, worse, has been shown to be ineffective.

As for naturopaths doing research, dollars will be an issue there. The organization I work for has a pharma test lab capability, and I can tell you right now its not cheap to do testing. This is especially the case when the tests need human subjects. Doing a verification test routinely is expensive enough, but to do enough to confirm the validity of a preparation, you are looking at a lot of dollars.

Yes, it does take dollars, but natural therapies that don't have the same safety/ethical issues as untested drugs are far easier and cheaper. I would think that someone who was prescribing treatment would want some sort of assurance that they are actually doing something besides doling out placebos.