Woo Denial

[Panthera tigris FC]

So conventional western medicine is the only way to go IYO Livers? Do you include things like naturapathy and homeopathy amongst these scams?

I couldn't let this one slip buy without comment.

I am not sure what you mean by "the only way to go", but if you want evidence-based therapy, then, yes, western medicine is the way to go. I am not 100% with the term "western medicine", as if it is exclusive and disregards therapies that weren't developed in the western world. On the contrary, any treatment where efficacy is established would be considered acceptable as evidence-based medicine. Treatments that lack such evidence, or have been shown to be ineffective (placebo-effect aside) are lumped under the alternative therapies moniker.

As for naturopathy and homeopathy...yes, they are scams. If they make you feel better, good for you, but they clearly fail the benchmarks of therapeutic efficacy.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

What I meant is what I wrote previously.

Huge majority of terrorist attacks are bomb explosions which asks a clear question as to why get on planes as pilots, go through security and fly into two buildings?

Why not just bomb the building just like the Oklahoma one was in 1993 etc...

They tried and failed in 1993. They later exploited a loophole in airline security to devastating effect.

 

[evo]

Well I'm definitely not conservative.

My evidence is what actually happens on roads while walking down a street or driving, TV news and newspapers.

So anectdotal.Meh.

You may be right.though the area where I live is alot more civilised than it was 25 years ago.

Gangs and knives and disrespect for police is hardly a new phenomena

The more time goes on, the more they can feel free to do ANYTHING immoral and disrespective. I think political correctness plays a part in the way kids are raised nowadays.

Well I've got just the guy for you!!

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24855305-421,00.html

 

[Dyer Disciple]

I can understand the reasoning behind the theory of religious delusion, but what is the reasoning behind deluding oneself into seeing a ghost?

One thing I would have to say on that is there are a hell of a lot of people who delude themself without really knowing it due to other tendencies, inadequacies or belief's etc.

For instance romantics. Some will merely use flowery or silver tongued language, others actually believe whole heartedly that fate made them go to that library they don't normally go, where they met the current passion of their life. They chalk it up 100% to fate, powers that be making it happen, mystical forces/destiny weaving it's designs etc.

Ghost stories and the supernatural has a very powerful effect on people, their is a primal essence in people that generally fears the dark that the supernatural plays on and works with the human imagination to great effect. That is why you could lay on your couch during the day for a nap and never really be "chilled or disturbed" but often people can do so at night and all of a sudden the dripping of the tap outside their backdoor on a tin rubbish lid makes them wonder, what the hell is that? Those with more powerful imaginations or have been more strongly influenced, either conciously or subconciously by supernatural stuff they have seen over the years...often can stretch a shadow or play of light into something far more chilling.

There are many dishonest people and a bit like catching fish, many people who will tell something essentially based on a true story but then add flair and exagerattion in the hope to bring others along with their belief and not seem so silly.

There are also a lot of drama queens to answer your question Disco who just love the drama, intrigue and attention. None of these reportings have ever been substantiated to any significant degree, a bit like the Lochness Monster and the Black Panther in Shepperton. :hihi

Hell, Madonna claims she was raped by a ghost! :rofl

I'm not discounting the supernatural or ghosts or spirits etc etc exist, I'm merely saying a lot of what has been reported/shown appears to be more displays of the myriad of human psyches rather than anything unearthly.

One thing that I do find interesting with a lot of phenon stuff like this, is how significantly the greater percentage of it happens at night as opposed to day. That alone is a interesting aspect.

 

[Disco08]

I couldn't let this one slip buy without comment.

I am not sure what you mean by "the only way to go", but if you want evidence-based therapy, then, yes, western medicine is the way to go. I am not 100% with the term "western medicine", as if it is exclusive and disregards therapies that weren't developed in the western world. On the contrary, any treatment where efficacy is established would be considered acceptable as evidence-based medicine. Treatments that lack such evidence, or have been shown to be ineffective (placebo-effect aside) are lumped under the alternative therapies moniker.

As for naturopathy and homeopathy...yes, they are scams. If they make you feel better, good for you, but they clearly fail the benchmarks of therapeutic efficacy.

Duckgirl has ulcerative colitis. For years when she was first diagnosed (aged about 16) she suffered through multiple debilitating spells with only her prescribed medicine to help. She then started visiting a 'laying of hands' type guy basically out of desperation. She improved quite a bit, to the point that she was able to complete school and start working part time. She would quite regularly go through bad phases though. I met her when she was 23. Since then we've done a lot of research, to the point now that through diet, changes in lifestyle and the use of a couple of mineral supplements she has basically no symptoms of the condition at all and has stopped taking her traditional drug based treatment. The only time she's had trouble in the last few years was when she contracted giardia and at least 4 doctors failed to diagnose it properly, telling her that it was simply her existing condition playing up despite both of us telling them that the symptoms were entirely different. Finally the fifth doctor diagnosed her correctly but failed to look up the manual to see what the procedure for the use of antibiotics for people with colitis is, hence she very nearly died when predictably clostridium difficile was able to flourish when the rest of her bacteria was flushed out.

Sorry for the rant but if it wasn't for naturopathic solutions she'd be a shadow of who she is today. Western medicine (the one approved by science) for the treatment of her condition does virtually nothing and it could easily be argued that with the side effects it actually does more harm than good.

I know far less about homeopathy but farmers we know quite well use a homeopathic vet to treat their cows and horses and they swear by him. They say he's been able to treat some conditions where traditional vets failed. Take this FWIW, but I don't think cows or horses are likely to see any improvement from the placebo effect.

 

[evo]

There probably is some utility in naturapathy,but homeopathy is absolute twaddle.

It's a scam in the John Edwards and clairvoyant league,IMO.

Having said that I don't mind that Rudolph Steiner dude.Seems a good thinker to me that was a little prematurely dismissed.

 

[Disco08]

I regard of the same order as reports of contact with God.How many times to have to say it.

I suspend my belief.

Fine, fair enough. Sorry to make you repeat yourself.

What would it take to make you believe they could possibly exist?

Many and varied I suppose.What is reasoniong behind all the people who claim alien encounters--who can say?

I don't really know why you are stuck on this concept of "deluding oneself to.. " idea.As if it is all about willing oneself.

Personally I wouldn't even know how to will myself to see or hear God.

I'm 'stuck' on it because you keep questioning me on it. My only point on this is that all religious experience is driven by delusion IMO. Because of that I don't see how you can say religious experiences have a correlation with ghost sightings.

I think it's quite obvious that if someone subconsciously wants to be believe in God, they're far more likely to hear His voice inside their head. IMO this constitutes something like willful subconscious delusion.

In my early 20's I used to frig around with various drug cocktail with mates.,including LSD.On a number of occassions we "saw" the exact same weird sh!t.

Suggestability would account for alot of it.

That's fine as long as everyone making claims to have seen a ghost was on some sort of hallucinatory drug at the time. I doubt that's the case though.

it speaks to 'willing'

Again, I only bring it up as a reply and point of differentiation to the assertion that religious experiences and ghost sightings are basically the same thing.

it speaks to 'willing'

group delusions happen all the time.

This place specialises in them:

That place is the definition of suggestibility, and I'm pretty sure everyone that goes there is definitely open to suggestion.

Anyway, this is probably as far as I really feel like taking this. I'm no huge ghost fan or anything. All I said was I'd heard too many ghost stories from people I trust to rule out the possibility that they exist.

 

[evo]

What would it take to make you believe they could possibly exist?

The same that it would take to believe in a 'holy spirit',or a transmigratory soul.

Either a flawless logical argument in favour of it.Or solid,scientificly peer reviewed empirical evidence.


what would it take for you to believe in a Christian-like God,or Zeus?

That's fine as long as everyone making claims to have seen a ghost was on some sort of hallucinatory drug at the time. I doubt that's the case though.

It's quite a useful paralell though.

Experience with stuff like that convinced me that the mind can be tricked into some pretty weird and wonderful things at times given the right chemicals or conditions.So too with religious or transcendental experience like "satori" etc.

'Seeing' a ghost at the end of your bed when you're half awake, or in a spooky situation ,would seem to me almost mundane by compare.

 

[Disco08]

I'd believe in God if he parted the heavens and told us all, in plain sight that without a doubt He exists. Probably couldn't be empirically tested but if enough people saw the same thing I did I'd be convinced.

It's quite a useful paralell though.

Experience with stuff like that convinced me that the mind can be tricked into some pretty weird and wonderful things at times given the right chemicals or conditions.So too with religious or transcendental experience like "satori" etc.

'Seeing' a ghost at the end of your bed when you're half awake, or in a spooky situation ,would seem to me almost mundane by compare.

Agreed to a point. When you take things like mushies or trips you're expecting to hallucinate. The stories I've been told have been where people weren't on drugs, weren't just woken, weren't drowsy, scared or overly emotional in any way. They were just going about their business and they are all convinced they saw a ghost of some sort.

 

[TigerForce]

The stories I've been told have been where people weren't on drugs, weren't just woken, weren't drowsy, scared or overly emotional in any way. They were just going about their business and they are all convinced they saw a ghost of some sort.

During the day with other people around or during the night on their own?

Were they illusions?

 

[TigerForce]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24856754-5012974,00.html


;D

 

[evo]

She does look rather 'hauntable'

 

[Disco08]

I know of one during the day where two people apparently saw the same old lady quite clearly and another one (happened to Gleninem who posted here a couple of times) was two people driving separate cars (one behind the other) saw the same ghostly looking boy running a few metres off the road. The cars were both full of people and when they pulled over before they could say anything (all Glen said was something like 'I think I saw a ghost') the passengers swapped drivers and made them tell them what they saw separately and they both saw the same exact thing. My dad and his brother and sister used to hear his old man walking around their house after he died (he apparently made a distinctive sound when he walked) and my nan, who was pretty much bright as a spark til she died told my mum she saw and spoke to her dead husband most nights. She told my mum because she thought she was going mad and my mum is a psych nurse. Shame this was before video cameras were everywhere.

None of which is proof but it's enough for me to keep an open mind for now.

 

[TigerForce]

She does look rather 'hauntable'

I wonder what happened at the 1st encounter.

 

[Dyer Disciple]

I wonder if he wears his clown make up when haunting her.

 

[TigerForce]

A lot of clear, bright shadow ghost photos are usually fake because of photoshop, but the photos which truly look 50+ years old and show an optical illusion of a ghost are closer to possibly being true.

 

[evo]

A lot of clear, bright shadow ghost photos are usually fake because of photoshop, but the photos which truly look 50+ years old and show an optical illusion of a ghost are closer to possibly being true.

It raises the question, why would we expect a spirit (or soul) of a person--if that indeeed what a ghost is-- to look like a see-through person?Why wouldn't a ghost look like a ball of energy,asmall green blob,toothpaste,or anything else we care to imagine.

How does one know a ghost when they see one?

It's a bit like expecting the God of the entire universe to coincidently look like a human:

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

It raises the question, why would we expect a spirit (or soul) of a person--if that indeeed what a ghost is-- to look like a see-through person?Why wouldn't a ghost look like a ball of energy,asmall green blob,toothpaste,or anything else we care to imagine.

How does one know a ghost when they see one?

It's a bit like expecting the God of the entire universe to coincidently look like a human:

Indeed

 

[TigerForce]

It raises the question, why would we expect a spirit (or soul) of a person--if that indeeed what a ghost is-- to look like a see-through person?Why wouldn't a ghost look like a ball of energy,asmall green blob,toothpaste,or anything else we care to imagine.

How does one know a ghost when they see one?

It's a bit like expecting the God of the entire universe to coincidently look like a human:

You're talking about reincarnation.

Most claims of ghosts are human beings or animals who have died, so I'd assume they would look like what they were before.....as humans or animals.

The transparency of the ghost is all made up crap.

I don't believe in ghosts but it's always interesting to look at certain photos with strange illusions or apparitions though.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Duckgirl has ulcerative colitis. For years when she was first diagnosed (aged about 16) she suffered through multiple debilitating spells with only her prescribed medicine to help. She then started visiting a 'laying of hands' type guy basically out of desperation. She improved quite a bit, to the point that she was able to complete school and start working part time. She would quite regularly go through bad phases though. I met her when she was 23. Since then we've done a lot of research, to the point now that through diet, changes in lifestyle and the use of a couple of mineral supplements she has basically no symptoms of the condition at all and has stopped taking her traditional drug based treatment. The only time she's had trouble in the last few years was when she contracted giardia and at least 4 doctors failed to diagnose it properly, telling her that it was simply her existing condition playing up despite both of us telling them that the symptoms were entirely different. Finally the fifth doctor diagnosed her correctly but failed to look up the manual to see what the procedure for the use of antibiotics for people with colitis is, hence she very nearly died when predictably clostridium difficile was able to flourish when the rest of her bacteria was flushed out.

Sorry for the rant but if it wasn't for naturopathic solutions she'd be a shadow of who she is today. Western medicine (the one approved by science) for the treatment of her condition does virtually nothing and it could easily be argued that with the side effects it actually does more harm than good.

I know far less about homeopathy but farmers we know quite well use a homeopathic vet to treat their cows and horses and they swear by him. They say he's been able to treat some conditions where traditional vets failed. Take this FWIW, but I don't think cows or horses are likely to see any improvement from the placebo effect.

I am sorry to hear about Duckgirl. Medical science is limited. That doesn't mean that other treatments are any more likely to work. This is a classical natural therapy story. Medical science fails (which it does) and another (or no) treatment leads to a remission of symptoms. It is certainly worth pursuing as a potential therapy, but many of these therapies have been studied and have been found to be no better than a placebo. Naturopathic medicines may have some benefits, but many fail the double blind test, suggesting that most of the benefical effects stated by the advocates are either outliers or the placebo effect. The multiple failed doctors, followed by an 'alternative' cure is classical anecdotal evidence. Of course I am not saying that this wasn't the case in your experience, but what is wrong with showing efficacy in a controlled environment? Medical science (not to mention the pharmaceutical industry) would love to find more effective treatments and that can be established through controlled double blind studies.

Also keep in mind that doctors are human and prone to the mistakes or misdiagnoses. This does not pay any more credence to the alternative therapies.

As for homeopathy...look at its claims. It is obvious snake oil.