Welcome to Tigerland - Tim Taranto

[DavidSSS]

Firm believer our problems are in the middle mostly. But backline a close second getting smashed and Forwards have no chance with the rubbish they get given.

Hmm, that seems to be problems over the whole ground.

But, hard to disagree.

We lose clearances and, critically, the opposition not only get clearances, but clearances which are not pressured.

This leads to problems in the backline, it is close to impossible to defend quality entries inside 50 especially when the opposition have a forward line willing to separate and move around to make contests harder. How many kicks to forwards with a bit of space do we see every week?

Then you get our forward 50 entries. Not only are they limited as we lose clearances, we tend not to have enough movement of our forwards to create space and separation, and we tend to bomb it in.

I just cannot see how we are trying to address these issues at the moment. There would be plans in place and strategies, but they are not being implemented well enough or there are flaws in the strategies. Really hope they are getting somewhere in trying to work out the issues.

DS

 

[Tig3]

Who said things are gangbusters?? Who's cherry-picking stats? Who's trying to justify anything? (We should be 3-2, by the way.)

You've taken a position that will be very easy for you to claim you were right. If we don't win a flag you will say you were right. You will ignore our mountainous injury list as a factor, or cite it as a function of an ageing list and argue that's why we should have brought in a 30-year-old and an expensive 29-year-old injury-struck ruckman instead of two mids entering their primes in an age bracket we had a gaping chasm. It'll be the club got it wrong and you got it right.

Maybe many of us fans expected Taranto + Hopper = flag, after all if we'd had them last year we might well have won it. But Jack was right when he said we recruited them to give us a midfield while we transition. We had a shy at the stumps for a last dynasty flag, but with most of the eye to the next gen. They will be around in five years. Mitchell and Grundy won't. And in those five years they will protect our kids while they develop.

You want shiny new draft picks. Everyone does. But our list would have been completely out of balance, for years. Stop fussing about pick whatever we gave up. We gave up picks in the range we'd previously picked Jarhead, Lennon, RCD, Coleman-Jones and Dow. Not blue-chip selections. We got two top-7 picks. We got five kids the year before, at least one of whom looks top 5 quality and another top 10-15. Forget the numbers. Look at the talent.

Throw in the fact we picked up another beauty in the rookie draft in Tylar Young, who has been fantastic in defence and already looks like a 100 game player

 

[Tig3]

Hard to use that as excuse against Sydney. They had heaps missing.

That’s the point though. Lynch against that back line would’ve destroyed them. Samson is still very raw and unfortunately dropped a bunch of marks so he couldn’t capitalize on his size advantage

 

[MD Jazz]

That’s the point though. Lynch against that back line would’ve destroyed them. Samson is still very raw and unfortunately dropped a bunch of marks so he couldn’t capitalize on his size advantage

We should still have destroyed that backline.

 

[Tig3]

Then you get our forward 50 entries. Not only are they limited as we lose clearances, we tend not to have enough movement of our forwards to create space and separation, and we tend to bomb it in.

I reckon we are used to bombing it in on Lynch’s head because he is such a good contested mark, (was miles ahead of the next best last year even after missing 4 games and being subbed out in 3). With Lynch out we need to adjust that because as good as Jack was Friday, he wasn’t up against much. And Samson can’t be relied upon to take 3.5+ contested marks a game. Also, after round 3 Lynch was the most targeted forward in the comp when kicking inside 50. He is a huge out

 

[bullus_hit]

So you obviously knew we’d be sitting 13th after 4 rounds and basing your whole argument of over paying around that?
Because if we were sitting undefeated, with other players pulling their weight as they should be, you’d have no argument that the two players weren’t worth it on their current form. After 4 games in total for the club, both players couldn’t have done much more

It was always possible after a 12th place finish in 2021, keeping our first was always a hedge against a bit of a tumble. I placed us about 9th, that being the mid point between 2021 & 2022. I also factored in some drop off from our stars & recommended grabbing some ruck back-up. The fact the club was willing to trade Soldo to GWS was also an opportunity missed, you get all the deals done for a future second & get to keep all the picks we had for guys like Hewett, Cowan & Keeler. Could have smashed it in the offseason but instead coughed up a king's ransom.

 

[Tig3]

We should still have destroyed that backline.

Agree. Gotta give them credit, they were brilliant. We went with the Lynch tactic of bombing it in and of course without him it didn’t work

 

[bullus_hit]

Top 5 pick is a guarantee of . . . hmm . . . a young player with potential, could be good, could be crap.

The guy at the top of the contested charts will have no possessions per game in a couple of years, because he will be retired, same goes for Grundy (although I would have had a go for him, good ruck and Collingwood paying some of his salary, then again, it would have meant not getting one of Hopper or Taranto).

You cannot compare trades on the basis of their performance in the current year without also taking into account how many more years they will play for, it makes no sense.

You also cannot plan for both our first rucks being injured, well, you can't do that with list sizes nowadays. You recruit and trade for talent and need. At the end of 2022 when the trades were made, we clearly needed mids. We picked up 2 mids in their 20s who we know can perform, and have been performing.

The draft, even top 5 or top 10 picks, are no guarantee, this is why players who have a proven record at AFL level cost you more than 1 pick and sometimes high picks.

To answer the first question, from the perspective of when the trades took place, I would definitely take Taranto. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, especially hindsight at short duration. But, even now, I would take Taranto, and Hopper for that matter.

DS

Once you start diminishing the value of top 5 picks you have little hope of addressing the holes in the list. And yes, that pick could be a bust but I reckon it's more chance to be a hit. History tells you this is the place you get your franchise players, we have none at the moment, the most promising being Balta but even he looks like a work in progress.

 

[TigerMasochist]

We should still have destroyed that backline.

Jaaack tried hard, could've used a bit of help though.

 

[asian tetley]

s shocking how slow and bad set of kicks we have. Even handballs often miss their targets and the fumbles, not to mention the brain fades and silly immature mistakes.

Kicking skills and lack of pace is what's costing us now.
Unfortunately, recruiting Taranto has done nothing to alleviate the problem, only exacerbate it.
Looks like we over estimated the list and thought Taranto and Hopper would be the fix that our midfield needed.
Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be a major recruiting blunder.

 

[Tig3]

It was always possible after a 12th place finish in 2021, keeping our first was always a hedge against a bit of a tumble. I placed us about 9th, that being the mid point between 2021 & 2022. I also factored in some drop off from our stars & recommended grabbing some ruck back-up. The fact the club was willing to trade Soldo to GWS was also an opportunity missed, you get all the deals done for a future second & get to keep all the picks we had for guys like Hewett, Cowan & Keeler. Could have smashed it in the offseason but instead coughed up a king's ransom.

I’m a bit sick of hearing about Hewett, Cowan and Keeler every week on here. And Tom Mitchell. End of the day, they’re not Richmond players, Hopper and Taranto are. So give them time to settle in FFS

 

[silvertiger]

Kicking skills and lack of pace is what's costing us now.
Unfortunately, recruiting Taranto has done nothing to alleviate the problem, only exacerbate it.
Looks like we over estimated the list and thought Taranto and Hopper would be the fix that our midfield needed.
Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be a major recruiting blunder.

100% disagree. We recruited for a need of midfield grunt. We got it! The run and skill is going to come from our drafting. Sonsie, Judson Clark, Sonsie, Banks and Brown have above average skills. Sonsie is ELITE - top 1% of the league. I mentioned Sonise twice because he is like drafting two players!

 

[bullus_hit]

I’m a bit sick of hearing about Hewett, Cowan and Keeler every week on here. And Tom Mitchell. End of the day, they’re not Richmond players, Hopper and Taranto are. So give them time to settle in FFS

Fine, I won't ever mention their names again just so long as people don't write off the draft as just numbers, I personally think the downplaying of a top 5 pick is ludicrous by the way, in a draft that clubs are buying into no less.

 

[mrposhman]

Fine, I won't ever mention their names again just so long as people don't write off the draft as just numbers, I personally think the downplaying of a top 5 pick is ludicrous by the way, in a draft that clubs are buying into no less.

The point isn't that anyone is downplaying a Top 5 pick, but its currently a fantasy pick based on a very quick write off of our season an pure assumption we will finish bottom 5. If we have the same discussion every week its going to be a very long year.

If its a top 5 pick that we miss out on, then yes in hindsight that was a poor trade BUT even you've admitted that you thought we'd finish around 9th. I doubt many people would have expected us to finish bottom 5 (I still don't think we'll finish in the bottom 5 anyway so its kind of moot arguing about a fantasy pick based upon the Round 5 ladder).

 

[Tig3]

Fine, I won't ever mention their names again just so long as people don't write off the draft as just numbers, I personally think the downplaying of a top 5 pick is ludicrous by the way, in a draft that clubs are buying into no less.

We can still attempt to trade back into the first round if we choose. Melbourne has done that for a few years now, where they’ve gone into the off season without a first round pick, then traded out a future first to get back in.

 

[bullus_hit]

We can still attempt to trade back into the first round if we choose. Melbourne has done that for a few years now, where they’ve gone into the off season without a first round pick, then traded out a future first to get back in.

I think if there's anything for sale it will come with a premium, like I mentioned earlier, clubs are buying in & very unlikely to cough up anything in the top 10, you are then banking on finishing in the top 8 the following year to avoid any diminishing returns. Sounds like another risky play with consequences.

 

[spook]

Fine, I won't ever mention their names again just so long as people don't write off the draft as just numbers, I personally think the downplaying of a top 5 pick is ludicrous by the way, in a draft that clubs are buying into no less.

What top-5 pick?

And you didn't answer my question: who's your 2026 midfield in your scenario? A 22-year-old Hewett, 23-year-old Sonsie, and...?

 

[bullus_hit]

The point isn't that anyone is downplaying a Top 5 pick, but its currently a fantasy pick based on a very quick write off of our season an pure assumption we will finish bottom 5. If we have the same discussion every week its going to be a very long year.

If its a top 5 pick that we miss out on, then yes in hindsight that was a poor trade BUT even you've admitted that you thought we'd finish around 9th. I doubt many people would have expected us to finish bottom 5 (I still don't think we'll finish in the bottom 5 anyway so its kind of moot arguing about a fantasy pick based upon the Round 5 ladder).

Even a top 10 pick is a no-go zone, that's your rebuild material, the time to trade a future first was in 2018 & 2019, there was a high degree of confidence we were top 4 material, the list looked iron-proof at the time, we also had genuine A list talent in their prime. This year was another year of catch-up & clearly the wrong year to be gambling with a top end pick. The path to a functional forward line pretty difficult I would say, as much as I would encourage buying back in, it would be in the second round & multiple picks. You might strike it lucky with a tall, the odds remote, but I think still a chance for a 40 goal forward like Allan or Van Rooyen.

 

[forward press]

I’m a bit sick of hearing about Hewett, Cowan and Keeler every week on here. And Tom Mitchell. End of the day, they’re not Richmond players, Hopper and Taranto are. So give them time to settle in FFS

I’m not. Let’s remind ourselves each week how lucky we are.

Cowan got 9 possies off half back in a flogging.

Hewett was dropped to the WAFL to find form and fitness and sustained a long term injury.

Keeler didn’t play VFL.
Bytel did little as the sub.
Bailey Williams was absolutely monstered.

Talking up these guys like we missed on superstars is ridiculous.

 

[bullus_hit]

What top-5 pick?

And you didn't answer my question: who's your 2026 midfield in your scenario? A 22-year-old Hewett, 23-year-old Sonsie, and...?

Matt Johnson was my choice the year prior, I think with Hewett the makings of something resembling a finals grade midfield. Sonsie, Bolton & next year's first would fix that area reasonably well, I take a tall forward in a best case scenario but fixing the midfield an ok suggestion. I think free agency is the your go-to place for mids, salary cap dumps another viable avenue. The picks we coughed up are steep for inside mids who don't hurt you on the outside, Taranto's kicking has always been iffy, this was another point I made prior to the trade period. Ultimately the desperation to eke out a premiership has led to a poor diagnosis of our list health and we find ourselves out of a draft that could have landed one critical piece. Bad timing however you want to cut it.