The Spelling, Grammar and Punctuation Thread [Merged]

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

That is what I would have thought. I guess you could argue then that it could be Lakes' Entrance.

The Style Manual has this to say:

"Placenames

Australian placenames involving possessives are all written without apostrophes:

Kings Cross
Mrs Macquaries Chair
the Devils Marbles
St Marys
St Georges Terrace
Dianas Basin
Flynns Beach
Frenchs Forest

This style, dating back to a 1966 decision by the Geographical Names Board, applies not only to the reproduction of placenames and street or road names in text but also to road maps and public signs. The practice is similar in the United States, whereas in Britain a name can appear with or without an apostrophe in different parts of the country. There is much to be said for the simplicity of the Australian convention."

I really should get around to reading this thing!

 

[Massive Tiger]

Exactly, and it's because of common usage.

 

[Rosy]

Why doesn't common usage apply to the use of an apostrophe in 'its' if it applies to proper nouns? It's certainly common usage in the text messages I send. Self confessed grammar pedants on here have even been known to omit it.

Would it be correct and acceptable for a journo to refer to Lake's Entrance rather than use the official name? As with St Paul's cathedral I consider it wrong. In both instances I reckon they would be done more out of slackness than out of applying common usage rules.

 

[TigerForce]

Showing the apostrophe is just a formality.

What's the point debating about it when we have 'words' like LOL as a huge global favourite and possibly close to be baptised into the dictionary.

 

[Rosy]

What's the point debating about it

There's probably not a lot of point in debating it if you're not interested. Some obviously are interested. I certainly am. It's been fun discussing it but I don't think I'm any the wiser in regard to the matter just the same.

 

[TigerForce]

There's probably not a lot of point in debating it if you're not interested. Some obviously are interested. I certainly am. It's been fun discussing it but I don't think I'm any the wiser in regard to the matter just the same.

I'm just sarcastically saying we have a worse problem with text words like LOL, ROFL etc.. entering the dictionary. ;D

Just like Massive says, it's just common usage nowadays in not using the apostrophe unless formal documents are used, but it can be misleading.

Like other words that were born 100 - 200 years ago, it just transforms into a different spelling and becomes the fashion.

I heard one on 774 last week but can't remember which one it is.

 

[Massive Tiger]

Why doesn't common usage apply to the use of an apostrophe in 'its' if it applies to proper nouns? It's certainly common usage in the text messages I send. Self confessed grammar pedants on here have even been known to omit it.

Simply because it is wrong and there is no precedent to change it. It's not a matter of common usage. Common usage generally applies to the earlier examples we all cited.

 

[Rosy]

Common usage generally applies to the earlier examples we all cited.

I understand common usage leading to place names not having apostrophes. The names don't have to include one. I don't agree, when the proper names actually do contain apostrophes, that it's correct to leave them out.

Based on the research I've done on this my understanding is Lavers Hill is Lavers Hill, not Lavers' or Laver's and if a journo included an apostrophe the name would be incorrect.

St Paul's cathedral could have been named without the apostrophe but considering that's not the case it's not correct to refer to it as St Pauls Cathedral.

Pretty sure you've posted you're a teacher Massive. You've said you've told us how it is in regard to this matter. Can you show us an actual rule to support why it is the way you say?

 

[Massive Tiger]

I understand common usage leading to place names not having apostrophes. The names don't have to include one. I don't agree, when the proper names actually do contain apostrophes, that it's correct to leave them out. OK we are in agreement there.

Based on the research I've done on this my understanding is Lavers Hill is Lavers Hill, not Lavers' or Laver's and if a journo included an apostrophe the name would be incorrect. Again that's right

St Paul's cathedral could have been named without the apostrophe but considering that's not the case it's not correct to refer to it as St Pauls Cathedral. Yep that's the case with the St Paul's Cathedral in Melbourne, although it might vary with other ones around the world

Pretty sure you've posted you're a teacher Massive. You've said you've told us how it is in regard to this matter. Can you show us an actual rule to support why it is the way you say? Do you mean a rule for common usage?

 

[Rosy]

OK we are in agreement there.

That contradicts what you said here when you said it's ok to leave the apostrophe out of the example in question.

Again that's right

Would have saved a lot of debate if you'd said that earlier.

Yep that's the case with the St Paul's Cathedral in Melbourne, although it might vary with other ones around the world

Yep and this discussion started about St Paul's Cathedral in Melbourne, not others around the world.

Do you mean a rule for common usage?

I meant in regard to the apostrophe being omitted from St Paul's Cathedral (Melbourne version) but it doesn't matter now it seems you've had an about turn in regard to the matter.

 

[Massive Tiger]

I don't think I have. I may not have been clear, but I haven't changed my stance (I don't think)

 

[Rosy]

I don't think I have. I may not have been clear, but I haven't changed my stance (I don't think)

You originally said it's ok to drop the apostrophe in a specific reference to St Paul's Cathedral (Melbourne). In your post above you agreed it wouldn't be right to add an apostrophe (Lavers Hill) or omit an apostrophe (St Paul's Cathedral) if it was/wasn't in the proper name.

:headscratch

 

[Massive Tiger]

aaah I have just checked back and i have realised what has happened. For some reason I thought it was St Pauls. Therefore i argued the case for common usage, when in fact it is St Paul's and there is no issue at all.

Sorry about that.

 

[Rosy]

Hope you're not an English teacher. :hihi

 

[Massive Tiger]

X

 

[23.21.159]

Re: Dustin

Just read this in the article about Martin on the RFC site;

"He played AFL from an early age, but it wasn’t until he received a call from the Sydney Swans, who interested in recruiting him, that he realised he had an opportunity to pursue elite football."

Thank you Swannies! I guess that rumour about Sydney offering us pick 6 and 14 for our pick 3 was true.

That way of referring to the sport as AFL really p!sses me off NO END !!!!!!!!!!

He didn't play AFL before receiving a call from the Swans. He played AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL. He only played *in the* AFL after being drafted by Richmond.

 

[TJsFurrow]

Re: Re: Dustin

That way of referring to the sport as AFL really p!sses me off NO END !!!!!!!!!!

He didn't play AFL before receiving a call from the Swans. He played AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL. He only played *in the* AFL after being drafted by Richmond.

With ya, 23. I haven't heard the term 'Aussie Rules' for a long time. Where did it go? And while we're at it, I've got a thing about 'shots on goal'. This comes from soccer, which differentiates shots at goal (inaccurate and accurate attempts) from shots on goal (accurate attempts that may or may not have scored). It has no relevance to anything that happens in our game, other than to give the veneer of a modern football analyst. At some point, someone has used it to make themselves sound international and clever, then everyone else copied. Someone needs to start a pedantry thread.

 

[23.21.159]

Re: Re: Dustin

I think the official name of the sport these days is AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL. I could be wrong. But even the AFL have probably decreed that, because it is closer to AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE than "Australian Rules Football" is. Even they wouldn't have the hubris to annoint the sport "AFL".

 

[kiwitiger]

Re: Re: Dustin

In sydney and Qld , the average guy on the street will quite often call Aussie Rules ( at any level) AFL

 

[23.21.159]

Re: Re: Dustin

Yes. It's been that way for years and in non-footy areas it's borderline understandable. But now it's creeping in to footy heartlands and that's what is really annoying.