The Old Testament

[evo]

Anywhoo, lets get back to the story. Come on Glantone!

I'm keen to know how it ends!

 

[Djevv]

Anywhoo, lets get back to the story. Come on Glantone!

I'm keen to know how it ends!

Yeah pretty dodgy thread I reckon! It takes 11 pages to get past Gen 1&2. How long will it end up .

I ask Glantone where he is up to and ge a very non-commital reply!

Liiiiffffftttt!!

 

[Disco08]

I'm going to re-read a bit myself. Only got this far before a couple of questions arose:

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1. God punished Adam even though he was deceived and didn't intentionally eat from the forbidden tree?

2. Who is God referring to when he says "The man has now become like one of us"

3. When was Eden destroyed? Does The Bible say? I'd have loved to have seen this cherubim and his flaming sword.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

3. When was Eden destroyed? Does The Bible say? I'd have loved to have seen this cherubim and his flaming sword.

If you ask a Mormon, they will tell you it used to be here!

 

[jayfox]

I'm going to re-read a bit myself. Only got this far before a couple of questions arose:

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1. God punished Adam even though he was deceived and didn't intentionally eat from the forbidden tree?

2. Who is God referring to when he says "The man has now become like one of us"

3. When was Eden destroyed? Does The Bible say? I'd have loved to have seen this cherubim and his flaming sword.

1. They were both deceived but still willingly ate of the fruit that God had instructed them not to. i.e. they allowed the Devil to tempt them to do something that God had clearly instructed them not to, and told them there would be penalty for.

2. 'Us' would refer to The Father and Son I believe.

3. I don't know. I'm not sure the Bible explains that in detail.

 

[jayfox]

Do you believe god was involved in that and if so how is the decision made to save some as in your example but to let others, many innocent children, die of horrific diseases?

I can;t explain why God allows one to be saved and another to die. We have a friends who prayed that her Mum would be saved from cancer but she still died. Our friend is still really struggling with that. The only thing that can comfort her is that she knows that she will see her Mum again and that her Mum no longer has any pain or suffering at all.

 

[jayfox]

Crikey, under that definition there wouldn'tbe anyone over 18 who isn't "evil".

Hence why we all need a saviour, because we all have sinned and fallen short of God's perfect standard. Instead of us paying for our sins though, Jesus did, if only we would believe in Him. That's what all of this comes down to, who do you want to pay for your sins? Yourself or Jesus?

 

[Disco08]

Thanks Pantera and Jay.

1. They were both deceived but still willingly ate of the fruit that God had instructed them not to. i.e. they allowed the Devil to tempt them to do something that God had clearly instructed them not to, and told them there would be penalty for.

2. 'Us' would refer to The Father and Son I believe.

In Adam's case though did he actually know he was eating from the forbidden tree? The story only says that Eve gave him the fruit which he ate.

In Adam and Eve's time Jesus wasn't born so I don't think it makes sense that God is referring to his own multiple selves here.

 

[Disco08]

Hence why we all need a saviour, because we all have sinned and fallen short of God's perfect standard. Instead of us paying for our sins though, Jesus did, if only we would believe in Him. That's what all of this comes down to, who do you want to pay for your sins? Yourself or Jesus?

You don't honestly think everyone in existence is evil though do you Jay?

My next question on Genesis is where did Cain's wife (and the other people living in Nod) come from in Genesis 4? Also, why was God so cruel when Cain offered Him the fruit he had grown?

 

[jayfox]

Belief in God and souls makes sense how? They are unnecessary propositions. They may make you feel better about yourself and give you a meaning in life, but they really don't withstand close scrutiny.

In your eyes. God and souls makes sense to me because something inside me tells me that this all doesn't end when we die. Our bodies may go but something within us survives. And I just simply can't believe that this entire planet that we live on, is a fluke. I have an alternative theory to the one that you have about the origins of this Earth and I choose to believe that because I find it more likely from a reasoning sense. Otherwise the question for me is why is all this here and what is the point if we live and then just die with nothing further, no memories etc. What would it matter if we all died out as that happens to each one of us individually anyway? No, I believe that there is a real purpose to live and that we are here for a reason.

I do watch the news. What is your point exactly? I haven't seen anything that defies belief.

I reckon we see absolutely amazing stories regularly of things that happen that seem impossible. Freak stories of survival for example where it seems impossible. I know that you will write them off but I reckon that miracles can happen.

Again you have to question why we believe opposing viewpoints. Of course we can believe what we want, but we are interested in what actually happened. Just because an apologetics website tries to present evidence to justify a position, that doesn't make such evidence credible. If I want to decide whether a proposition is believable I need to look at ALL of the evidence. Just having someone make an argument and not looking at the 'other side' suggests that you aren't really interested in the truth, but are just interested in validating your own beliefs.

My faith is unwavering but I do agree that it is good to investigate things and question why you believe as a way of strengthening your faith. These threads have done that for me, for example. Throughout these debates, I have researched things and read more of the Bible than I normally would, usually to try to answer questions, and it has just reaffirmed things for me. There is a God, He does love us and wants to have a relationship with us.

So you have access to something that I don't? As I have said before, when I was younger I did search and came up wanting.

Yeah. The Bible calls it blessed assurance. I can't explain it but it is a feeling of absolute certainty that God exists. I have also really felt His presence in times of crisis in the past. I can remember one time, during the hardest period of my life when I was distraught, sitting alone on my lounge room floor and I prayed and felt like someone was hugging me from behind. There was no-one there but I would have sworn black and blue that someone was holding me. During the same crisis I asked God twice to take me, at that stage I felt myself lift out of my body and hover above myself. I heard a voice in my head say that if I asked again he would do it. I paused and then felt myself return to my body. I have never mentioned these things before because really they are quite embarrassing and from an incredibly tough time in my life that I am very pleased to be past, but you ask how I believe that we have more than a body, well that is part of the reason why.

If a God did create this planet it was over 4.5 billion years ago. This is validated by numerous lines of evidence that you are free to critique. Life has been evolving on this planet for 4 billion years, with humans only showing up about 2 million years ago. This is also validated by numerous lines of evidence that are available for you to inspect and critique.

Look, I certainly believe that God created this planet. It may have been 4.5 billion years ago, I don't know and it is irrelevant to me when it actually happened as I believe that the Creation story in the Bible stands up either way. What I do believe is that He did it at some stage. I also do not completely trust the dating systems used to be 100% accurate either.

You miss my point. My point is that the best way to solve a problem is to accurately appraise the reality of the situation. How is that possible when you cling to preconceptions that are not an accurate reflection of reality?

Fair enough. I reckon we just let this one go as we seem to just be going back and forth.

No, you can judge from empirical evidence and our accumulated knowledge which is far more reliable than any circumstantial or anecdotal evidence.

What about experiential evidence? Something that you have been through that you are certain of?

I was referring to standards of evidence. You seem to think that all standards of evidence are equal. I was making the point that you must find evidence-based medicine and alternative medicine equivalent then? They both have evidence to support them, double blind studies for evidence-based medicine and anecdotal evidence for alternative therapies.

No but I certainly think that both types of medicine have a place and some find one more helpful to their issues than another.

Um, how many planets do we know of that are conducive to the emergence of life? One. If we get the opportunity to study planets in so-called Goldilocks zones (conditions just right for the emergence of life) we will be better able to judge just how likely or unlikely the emergence of life on Earth was.

But my point is how many planets do we know of? (I don't know but you can tell me). So the chances of life being possible on any given planet thus far is 1/?000's. You said yourself life started from nothing, well why can't it start on any of these other planets from nothing?

Life existed before the Big Bang? How do you figure? Nothing in this universe existed before the Big Bang. Life did start by itself and we are starting to get a better picture of the nature of that early life through studying the extant life on this planet.

Observation would show us that life cannot create itself from nothing, would it not? I have never known of a scientific experement which created life from a mix of lifeless elements? Has that ever happened and if not then how can you possibly be so sure it happened from the big bang?

So you don't see how very unlikely it would be for a human to be lucky enough to be born into a culture at the right time to find themselves in the one true belief system? Given the number of religions that humans have developed over the ages it is uncanny.

I do see how lucky I am. I am incredibly thankful for where I was born and who to. I am also incredibly thankful that I live in a country where I am free to explore and study all these things. In short, I am totally aware of how incredibly lucky I am. I would like to think that given a different life elsewhere in the world that I would have still found God (it does happen you know) and if not given the opportunity then I would hope that I would have lived in a way that was pleasing to Him, without actually knowing exactly who he was.

I didn't intend to be insulting. I was just pointing out that such a belief could be considered delusional when you look at the big picture.

I know you think that I am delusional. I think that you are very set in your ways and refuse to recognize anything conflicts with your beliefs too.

No, you seem to misunderstand me. It is easier to uncritically believe something which has been told to you than to go to the effort to really understand the nature of something which requires work and the critical scrutiny of others.

But I certainly don't uncritically believe something that has been told to me. I am not a moron. I was brought up in a Christian home but as an adult I have done much contemplating and study to work out whether I believe or not. I now believe completely off my own back and that now has nothing to do with my parents or upbringing.

I have read the Bible. Numerous times. Have you taken the time to try to understand the evidence that I allude to in my posts? Or is the one side of the picture sufficient for you? If so, why do you bother trying to defend your beliefs as if you have looked at the sum of the evidence and concluded that your beliefs are the most likely explanation?

I have done my best to look at evidence you have provided, given the time constraints of simply posting on this thread. I have not seen anything that makes me think "There cannot be a God". I have had questions asked that are tricky and have made me think but after careful study I have walked away with my faith reassured.

Weighing up a subjective 'feeling', no matter how convincing against hard, objective evidence (which you would first have to honestly appraise) I would say "Yes".

I simply cannot refuse to acknowledge experiences I have had in my life up until now.

So it is tough being a Christian in Australia? I don't think there are too many martyrs around these parts. You make those sacrifices because you believe and as a reward you believe you will be rewarded after this life. I would want to make sure that I wasn't sacrificing in vain.

Yeah, I get called Flandersfox all the time! ;D No, I actually made the point that in many places people get tortured or killed for their Christian faith and yet they still believe. I have a book specifically on this that I could give you examples of and I would suggest that you visit http://www.persecution.com.au/ for heaps of current stories of people being abused for their faith.

There is one, set meaning to life? You are privy to this information?

Absolutely. It's all there in the Bible.

 

[jayfox]

Thanks Pantera and Jay.

In Adam's case though did he actually know he was eating from the forbidden tree? The story only says that Eve gave him the fruit which he ate.

In Adam and Eve's time Jesus wasn't born so I don't think it makes sense that God is referring to his own multiple selves here.

Women. They've been trouble right from the start! ;D

Jesus has existed for all eternity Duckman. The Bible actually says that all things were created through Him. Just because the Old Testament doesn't specifically mention Him doesn't mean that He didn't exist until he was born on Earth. God has always existed in His Tri-une state, we just didn't have that revealed to us at the beginning until it was the right time for us to know that.

 

[Disco08]

OK, my bad Jay I didn't realise that. Why doesn't God refer to himself as We instead of I throughout the rest of The Bible though?

What would it matter if we all died out as that happens to each one of us individually anyway? No, I believe that there is a real purpose to live and that we are here for a reason.

We're the only ones though? All those species that came before us and are now extinct existed for no reason whatsoever, other than it is what it is.

It seems somewhat misguided (to me at least) to assume that millions of other species have existed with no purpose yet humans are the one in millions with divine blessing and a reason to be here. Wouldn't a loving omnipowerful creator love all their creation equally given they would have unlimited love to share around?

 

[jayfox]

You don't honestly think everyone in existence is evil though do you Jay?

My next question on Genesis is where did Cain's wife (and the other people living in Nod) come from in Genesis 4? Also, why was God so cruel when Cain offered Him the fruit he had grown?

It depends on your take on the word evil. No, I don't believe that everyone in existence is evil but I do believe that everyone in existence has done evil things, i.e. things that God has instructed us that are against His wishes.

Re Cain's wife, here is an excerpt explaining it -

"In Genesis 5:4 we read a statement that sums up the life of Adam and Eve: “After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.”

During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. In fact, the Jewish historian Josephus wrote, “The number of Adam’s children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters.”7

Scripture doesn’t tell us how many children were born to Adam and Eve, but considering their long life spans (Adam lived for 930 years—Genesis 5:5), it would seem logical to suggest there were many. Remember, they were commanded to “be fruitful, and multiply” (Genesis 1:28).

If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extrabiblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to marry sisters or there wouldn’t have been any more generations!

We’re not told when Cain married or many of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that Cain’s wife was either his sister or a close relative."


Re the sacrifice question - my understanding is, without looking it up any further, that Cain brought the best of his harvest whilst Abel simply brought some of his harvest and that is why God was pleased with Abel's but not with Cain's sacrifice.

 

[jayfox]

OK, my bad Jay I didn't realise that. Why doesn't God refer to himself as We instead of I throughout the rest of The Bible though?

We're the only ones though? All those species that came before us and are now extinct existed for no reason whatsoever, other than it is what it is.

It seems somewhat misguided (to me at least) to assume that millions of other species have existed with no purpose yet humans are the one in millions with divine blessing and a reason to be here. Wouldn't a loving omnipowerful creator love all their creation equally given they would have unlimited love to share around?

He made all Creation differently with us as the head of all Creation, if you like. I'm not sure why He did it that way but we are privileged to be in a position to have a relationship with Him.

 

[Disco08]

Fair enough. We'll have to leave it there because it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I understand the part of God giving us animals for food and toil, but what point all the animals that lived well before humans?

It depends on your take on the word evil. No, I don't believe that everyone in existence is evil but I do believe that everyone in existence has done evil things, i.e. things that God has instructed us that are against His wishes.

Then I think your definition of the word evil is far from mine and I'd hazard a guess far from many other peoples as well.

"In Genesis 5:4 we read a statement that sums up the life of Adam and Eve: “After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.”

During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. In fact, the Jewish historian Josephus wrote, “The number of Adam’s children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters.”7

Scripture doesn’t tell us how many children were born to Adam and Eve, but considering their long life spans (Adam lived for 930 years—Genesis 5:5), it would seem logical to suggest there were many. Remember, they were commanded to “be fruitful, and multiply” (Genesis 1:28).

If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extrabiblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to marry sisters or there wouldn’t have been any more generations!

We’re not told when Cain married or many of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that Cain’s wife was either his sister or a close relative."

Thanks. I'm still confused though. Genesis 4's narrative gives the distinct feeling that Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel are the earth's only inhabitants, yet Cain makes this reply to God after being given his punihsment for killing Abel:

13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

So where did these people that he was afraid of come from?

Re the sacrifice question - my understanding is, without looking it up any further, that Cain brought the best of his harvest whilst Abel simply brought some of his harvest and that is why God was pleased with Abel's but not with Cain's sacrifice.

3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.

It seems they both took offerings as they saw fit. I'd have thought God (with His powers of foresight) would have at least explained to Cain why He wasn't happy with the fruit. At least this would have prevented Cain from becoming psychotic and killing his brother.

 

[jayfox]

Fair enough. We'll have to leave it there because it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I understand the part of God giving us animals for food and toil, but what point all the animals that lived well before humans?

Dunno. That's where I believe that all animals were created at the same time as humans not millions of years before.

Then I think your definition of the word evil is far from mine and I'd hazard a guess far from many other peoples as well.

Don't get me wrong, I don't consider every person I run into to be an evil person and if I am looking at what I would actually call an "evil person" I would only use that to refer to mass murderers and rapists etc. I guess what I am trying to say is that any sin that we commit comes from our rejection of God which has resulted from temptation from the evil one, Satan. So anything that is against the wishes of a perfect God could be considered evil. I think we are getting caught up on terminology a bit too much with this one though.

Thanks. I'm still confused though. Genesis 4's narrative gives the distinct feeling that Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel are the earth's only inhabitants, yet Cain makes this reply to God after being given his punihsment for killing Abel:

13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

So where did these people that he was afraid of come from?

3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.

It seems they both took offerings as they saw fit. I'd have thought God (with His powers of foresight) would have at least explained to Cain why He wasn't happy with the fruit. At least this would have prevented Cain from becoming psychotic and killing his brother.

Okay, firstly God made it quite clear throughout the OT that only the best firstborn of the harvest is acceptable as a sacrifice to Him. This is because it shows Him that you are happy and willing to give up the best you have for Him, therefor putting Him ahead of all else. I am certain that God would have advised that to Cain and Abel. Cain then brought "some of the fruits of the soil" and Abel brought "fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock". I think that the distinction here is clear in that it does not mention that Cain brought "the finest fruits from his first harvest" for example. Cain clearly then did not put God before all else but seemingly gave Him a sacrifice that was not his finest, which he was probably keeping for himself, hence God's rejection of his sacrifice.

Secondly, Adam lived for 930 years so Cain's wandering at that time was not likely to last for a mere decade or two in his opinion. He knew he would wander for hundred's of years. He would have been a loner and over hundreds of years the population of the Earth would have built up quite a bit. It is possible that clan's over that time may have been very protective of what they had and seen a strange man as some kind of a threat, or it is quite likely that all of Adam's ancestors would have known of how Cain killed Abel and some may still hold that against Cain and would possibly look to punish him for it. So the people he would have been afraid of would have been his relatives in one form or another, but possibly quite removed from the original family over the course of nearly 1000 years. Remember, the Bible tells us that Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters. If you average out that they had a child every 5 years, which is being very conservative given that they were told to multiply the Earth, they could have had up to 186 children. Assuming half were boys and half girls that leaves 93 couples to start their own families and multiply in just under 1000 years. That's a lot of people in 1 lifetime!

 

[Disco08]

Dunno. That's where I believe that all animals were created at the same time as humans not millions of years before

Fair enough. You realise your opinion in this case is opposed by just about every person whose ever studied zoology, biology. paleontology, etc.? You're not at all convinced by the consensus among these experts? What about all the fossils found that are now obviously extinct?

I think we are getting caught up on terminology a bit too much with this one though.

Agreed. I think it's obvious that sin does not equal evil and if we can agree on that we can move on.

Okay, firstly God made it quite clear throughout the OT that only the best firstborn of the harvest is acceptable as a sacrifice to Him. This is because it shows Him that you are happy and willing to give up the best you have for Him, therefor putting Him ahead of all else. I am certain that God would have advised that to Cain and Abel. Cain then brought "some of the fruits of the soil" and Abel brought "fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock". I think that the distinction here is clear in that it does not mention that Cain brought "the finest fruits from his first harvest" for example. Cain clearly then did not put God before all else but seemingly gave Him a sacrifice that was not his finest, which he was probably keeping for himself, hence God's rejection of his sacrifice.

TBH, I find the notion of God requiring sacrifices completely ridiculous.

Anyway, if you were growing fruit in the Garden of Eden I'd imagine all fruit would be perfect and choosing the finest would be impossible. I think Cain's reaction to God's scorn points to the fact he wasn't expecting it. If that was the case then surely God could have explained why he didn't praise Cain for his offering.

Secondly, Adam lived for 930 years so Cain's wandering at that time was not likely to last for a mere decade or two in his opinion. He knew he would wander for hundred's of years. He would have been a loner and over hundreds of years the population of the Earth would have built up quite a bit. It is possible that clan's over that time may have been very protective of what they had and seen a strange man as some kind of a threat, or it is quite likely that all of Adam's ancestors would have known of how Cain killed Abel and some may still hold that against Cain and would possibly look to punish him for it. So the people he would have been afraid of would have been his relatives in one form or another, but possibly quite removed from the original family over the course of nearly 1000 years. Remember, the Bible tells us that Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters. If you average out that they had a child every 5 years, which is being very conservative given that they were told to multiply the Earth, they could have had up to 186 children. Assuming half were boys and half girls that leaves 93 couples to start their own families and multiply in just under 1000 years. That's a lot of people in 1 lifetime!

Fair enough. It seems equally absurd to me that God would bend His own rules, allowing people to live hundreds of years and have sex with their direct relatives in order to populate the earth rather than simply create the populations Himself as I'm assuming He did with all the other species.

 

[evo]

Women. They've been trouble right from the start! ;D

Jesus has existed for all eternity Duckman. The Bible actually says that all things were created through Him. Just because the Old Testament doesn't specifically mention Him doesn't mean that He didn't exist until he was born on Earth. God has always existed in His Tri-une state, we just didn't have that revealed to us at the beginning until it was the right time for us to know that.

The Jooz wouldn't be too happy with this call, Jehovahfox.

I smell a demarcation dispute coming on.

 

[evo]

Okay, firstly God made it quite clear throughout the OT that only the best firstborn of the harvest is acceptable as a sacrifice to Him.

Pedantic bugger eh. Personally I would've accepted the 2nd born.

This is because it shows Him that you are happy and willing to give up the best you have for Him, therefor putting Him ahead of all else.

God himself may not be infinite but his vanity sure is.

I am certain that God would have advised that to Cain and Abel. Cain then brought "some of the fruits of the soil" and Abel brought "fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock". I think that the distinction here is clear in that it does not mention that Cain brought "the finest fruits from his first harvest" for example. Cain clearly then did not put God before all else but seemingly gave Him a sacrifice that was not his finest, which he was probably keeping for himself, hence God's rejection of his sacrifice.

The audacity of Cain. Fancy thinking for himself. Most un religious. Best we stamp this out immediately...

Secondly, Adam lived for 930 years so Cain's wandering at that time was not likely to last for a mere decade or two in his opinion. He knew he would wander for hundred's of years. He would have been a loner and over hundreds of years the population of the Earth would have built up quite a bit. It is possible that clan's over that time may have been very protective of what they had and seen a strange man as some kind of a threat, or it is quite likely that all of Adam's ancestors would have known of how Cain killed Abel and some may still hold that against Cain and would possibly look to punish him for it. So the people he would have been afraid of would have been his relatives in one form or another, but possibly quite removed from the original family over the course of nearly 1000 years. Remember, the Bible tells us that Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters. If you average out that they had a child every 5 years, which is being very conservative given that they were told to multiply the Earth, they could have had up to 186 children. Assuming half were boys and half girls that leaves 93 couples to start their own families and multiply in just under 1000 years. That's a lot of people in 1 lifetime!

Sometimes you just have to let religion speak for itself.

 

[glantone]

Djevv,

I think it’s a safe bet the Tiges will win a flag before I finish.
Potent combination of a middle age, cozy bed and King James English …zzzzzzz ….

Anyway,…if God marked Cain to protect him from revengeful as yet unborn brothers why such a harsh punishment in the first place?

On tv today I saw some Teleban activists holding down a man while another flogged him for his crime in the streets. Upon finishing the flogging they immediately helped him up and gently rubbed his back in a caring manner.
Fierce punishment combined with a caring touch...is it fair to say that God and the Teleban share some common ground?

In order to protect Cain, his mark must have been visibly very very prominent so is it fair to assume that the woman who became his wife would have known his identity? His sad story must have been widely recognized as a classic bed time tale amongst generations of kids in those days.

Djevv,

I’ll try to lift for you. Hard to make the time and find the energy - haven't read a page since you last asked. Negative vibes from both incredulous wife and 10 yr old son each time I head off to bed with a bible tucked under my wing doesn’t help either.

By the way, if upon their deaths Adam and Eve went to heaven, is it represented in the text or just a thing assumed?