The Old Testament

[Djevv]

Yet you only subscribe to the science that fits your worldview.

You'll need to substantiate this statement.

You claim that a creator is a reasonable explanation for the universe from a scientific standpoint, however there is no evidence for such a creator outside of your 'Faith' and personal experience.

I thought we were discussing this. There is evidence and I am providing it. You have, yet again, failed to substantiate your claim.

You postulate something with no evidence and no predictive power.

Hmmm it actually predicts a universe with order and rationality, as opposed to your theory which predicts nothing.

Science isn't afraid to say "We don't know" when the evidence is lacking. We have certain knowledge of the origins of the universe, but we don't know everything. Making up answers is not science.

So you have doubts about relativity and the 1st and 2nd laws of Thermodynamics? No need to say we don't know when we clearly do. These laws are clear: no new energy is made in the natural world, and entropy is increasing - obvious conclusion: the universe has a beginning and an ultimate cause beyond the universe.

You are also very specific about your creator God. You are clearly not a deist, but a theist that believes in the God of Christianity. Why that one? It feels right?

Christianity is a revelation faith as I have made clear before. Yes it feels wonderful!

Christianity makes very specific claims about the universe and events that have happened on this planet. Claims that are subject to the scrutiny of the scientific evidence and have come up wanting no matter how Christians wish to misrepresent that evidence.

Yep and it has stood up well to that scrutiny when 'rightly divided'. However is is not hard to take out of context completely misrepresent it and sell that to the gullible.

Thus, your reason to believe has no more foundation in reality than David Berkowitz's belief that his dog was talking to him.

Wrong again!

 

[glantone]

Actually I'm not sure on that one. Whatever was going on doesn't sound good.......................................

Hehehe.... yeah, it sounds mischievous. Some goings on that need to be exposed I'd say. Love the prose though just the same.

What about you jayfox, you’re an OT buff aren't you. What’s your take on it.

GEN 6

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 

[glantone]

It's no different to a judge who sentences a criminal for a heinous crime. Does this reflect on the character of the judge? Even a judge who sentences a criminal to death is not regarded as a murderer. And yes God has emotions like we do.

God is perfect Matt 5:48: Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I don’t accept the judge/criminal/heinous crime analogy.
For one, what heinous crimes had 99.9% of life on planet earth committed when God pulled the shower string? Really, Djevv, the level of detachment necessary to condone such a thing (global holocaust) is astonishing.

From my pov, if a judge sentences someone to death then the judge is a murderer. It may be state sanctioned but directing electric currents through a human who is strapped to a chair in a locked room under armed guard in a security compound until his hemoglobin are al dente is no cat fishin accident.
Moida is moida!

The Matt 5:48 ref: is that God speaking of himself?

 

[glantone]

Anyway, moving along bypassing the ark:

GEN 9: 13-16

I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud.
And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

From this can we assume that the climatic conditions that make rainbows possible (light & raindrops) had never occurred on planet earth until after the great flood?

And also, that God is a forgetful God needing visual reminders so as to either make sense of things he has done and/or avoid repeating such things (like global holocaust)again and again?

It's all rather theatrical isn't it unless it really happened.

 

[glantone]

.... and while we're on a roll GEN 9: 20-25

And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.


Okay, Noah (God’s choice to man earth) wakes up with a hangover of biblical proportions after a night on the grappa, perhaps runs through the night’s events in his head and then lays a huge curse on Canaan.

Why curse Canaan?
What do Christians believe really went down in Noah’s seedy tent that night?

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

You'll need to substantiate this statement.

From the numerous discussion we have had on these topics what is abundantly clear is that you certainly have a higher level of scepticism over accepted scientific viewpoints that challenge your faith (evolution, flood geology etc.) and openly accept those that do not. It seems that the determining factor is your faith, not a critical examination of the evidence. Which begs the question as to the foundation of that faith.

I thought we were discussing this. There is evidence and I am providing it. You have, yet again, failed to substantiate your claim.

Um, where have you provided any evidence of the existence of the Christian god? You have been providing evidence suggesting that this universe has a beginning (not disputed) and that it is therefore reasonable to put the Christian god there as the creator. This is where I see a disconnect. This is just a God-of-the-gaps explanation that doesn't have any basis. There are scientific hypotheses that don't posit a creator that don't have the problems inherent in positing a creator (ie. the nature and origins of the creator!). Science doesn't know what happened (although they know a lot about the beginning) and nor do you.

Hmmm it actually predicts a universe with order and rationality, as opposed to your theory which predicts nothing.

My theory? I am flattered, but it is not my theory. It is the scientific consensus on this issue. You don't think it makes predictions? That seems pretty dismissive of the physicists that work in this area and test these theories. What are they testing? The predictions made by the theories describing the origins and workings of the universe.

If you consider our universe free of disorder, then you haven't looked hard enough. From a biological perspective life on this planet is tenuous and relies on many factors to go the right way. Our species has been on this planet for a microsecond in geological terms and we have already made changes to the planet that may threaten the survival of our species into the future.

So you have doubts about relativity and the 1st and 2nd laws of Thermodynamics? No need to say we don't know when we clearly do. These laws are clear: no new energy is made in the natural world, and entropy is increasing - obvious conclusion: the universe has a beginning and an ultimate cause beyond the universe.

Um, the scientific consensus is that the universe has a beginning. What is your point? As I stated above this says nothing about the Christian god.

Christianity is a revelation faith as I have made clear before. Yes it feels wonderful!

What does that mean exactly? That the truth is revealed to you personally, or has been revealed, with that revelation available through scripture? Both of these are extremely prone to wish-thinking, interpretation and internal contradiction. I have no doubt that it feels wonderful to believe that we were put here by a benevolent(?) creator and that we have a 'purpose'. Therein, lies the problem, of course that feels good, so how do you know you aren't deluding yourself? I would require something (anything?) real that doesn't rely on the whimsy of my own perception to validate such a belief.

Yep and it has stood up well to that scrutiny when 'rightly divided'. However is is not hard to take out of context completely misrepresent it and sell that to the gullible.

"Rightly divided"? Does that mean interpreted with the conclusion in mind? I am not be facetious, I really don't know what that means.

Your second sentence is exactly what apologists websites do with scientific evidence to support creationist beliefs.

Wrong again!

Care to substantiate that?

 

[Rosy]

It's no different to a judge who sentences a criminal for a heinous crime. Does this reflect on the character of the judge? Even a judge who sentences a criminal to death is not regarded as a murderer. And yes God has emotions like we do.

Massive difference imo.  The judge sentencing criminals is doing so on the laws of the land that we all must obey, and are usually to protect other people. He doesn't judge and punish people by how they react to personal tests he sets for them.  They are not laws he himself has made to punish those who disobey him personally, who do not worship him thoroughly, or everyone in existance for ever more because of a test one person might have failed. 

God is perfect Matt 5:48: Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Maybe Matt has a dodgy perception of perfection.  How can someone be considered perfect when their philosophies revolve around demanding others' obedience and worship of himself personally and is willing to inflict severe suffering and hardship on others if people don't comply? 

 

[Djevv]

I don’t accept the judge/criminal/heinous crime analogy.
For one, what heinous crimes had 99.9% of life on planet earth committed when God pulled the shower string? Really, Djevv, the level of detachment necessary to condone such a thing (global holocaust) is astonishing.

From my pov, if a judge sentences someone to death then the judge is a murderer. It may be state sanctioned but directing electric currents through a human who is strapped to a chair in a locked room under armed guard in a security compound until his hemoglobin are al dente is no cat fishin accident.
Moida is moida!

So by that logic a judge sentencing a criminal to jail is a kidnapper!

The Matt 5:48 ref: is that God speaking of himself?

It's Jesus speaking of His father

 

[Djevv]

Massive difference imo. The judge sentencing criminals is doing so on the laws of the land that we all must obey, and are usually to protect other people. He doesn't judge and punish people by how they react to personal tests he sets for them. They are not laws he himself has made to punish those who disobey him personally, who do not worship him thoroughly, or everyone in existance for ever more because of a test one person might have failed.

The flood judgement was send because the Earth was filled with violence and the thoughts and intents of mens hearts were evil and only evil. There was plenty of warning.

Maybe Matt has a dodgy perception of perfection. How can someone be considered perfect when their philosophies revolve around demanding others' obedience and worship of himself personally and is willing to inflict severe suffering and hardship on others if people don't comply?

God is the only truly good thing in this world and He knows worshipping Him is what will set things aright from mans perspective. It is not vanity on His part.

 

[Djevv]

From the numerous discussion we have had on these topics what is abundantly clear is that you certainly have a higher level of scepticism over accepted scientific viewpoints that challenge your faith (evolution, flood geology etc.) and openly accept those that do not. It seems that the determining factor is your faith, not a critical examination of the evidence. Which begs the question as to the foundation of that faith.

Thats your perception Panther, not my reality. I tend to be far more sceptical about the historical sciences (yes like my own) as opposed to the experimental sciences. For instance I have been reading up on the ice ages and Mammoth extinction and, seriously there are as many contradictory theories as there are scientists studying these issues.

Um, where have you provided any evidence of the existence of the Christian god? You have been providing evidence suggesting that this universe has a beginning (not disputed) and that it is therefore reasonable to put the Christian god there as the creator. This is where I see a disconnect. This is just a God-of-the-gaps explanation that doesn't have any basis. There are scientific hypotheses that don't posit a creator that don't have the problems inherent in positing a creator (ie. the nature and origins of the creator!). Science doesn't know what happened (although they know a lot about the beginning) and nor do you.

Umm I have posted the evidence for Christianity over on the Christianity thread. I even reposed the link a few pages back! To say there is no evidence is downright dishonest IMO. The scientific theories that don't posit a creator have the issue that they violate the first law of thermodynamics!! They also have the problem that they have no actual confirming evidence - I watched a program on string theory last night.
I agree that this evidence does not give you the Christian God, but the Christian God did create the universe out of nothing Biblically so......

My theory? I am flattered, but it is not my theory. It is the scientific consensus on this issue. You don't think it makes predictions? That seems pretty dismissive of the physicists that work in this area and test these theories. What are they testing? The predictions made by the theories describing the origins and workings of the universe.

I'm not being dismissive. I find their work pretty interesting, but ATM it is purely mathematical and theoretical. The only thing that we can be absolutely certain of is that the universe did have a beginning. I meant your idea that there is 'probably' no creator so the universe acually came from nothing - interestingly Hawkins agrees with you. The 'ultimate free lunch' he called it, except we all know there aint no such thing as a free lunch :hihi

If you consider our universe free of disorder, then you haven't looked hard enough. From a biological perspective life on this planet is tenuous and relies on many factors to go the right way. Our species has been on this planet for a microsecond in geological terms and we have already made changes to the planet that may threaten the survival of our species into the future.

Um, the scientific consensus is that the universe has a beginning. What is your point? As I stated above this says nothing about the Christian god.

I think things as the currently stand do support a Biblical position. If you look at the other evidence re fine-tuning you get a designed universe, even more suggestive.

What does that mean exactly? That the truth is revealed to you personally, or has been revealed, with that revelation available through scripture? Both of these are extremely prone to wish-thinking, interpretation and internal contradiction. I have no doubt that it feels wonderful to believe that we were put here by a benevolent(?) creator and that we have a 'purpose'. Therein, lies the problem, of course that feels good, so how do you know you aren't deluding yourself? I would require something (anything?) real that doesn't rely on the whimsy of my own perception to validate such a belief.

The whole Bible is God's progressive revelation of Himself. How can you know for absolute certain? I'm not sure you can if you are only prepared to accept iron-clad experimental evidence. I mean how do you know your missus loves you? Did you have definitive scientific proof? When you take the wedding vows it is really an act of faith, based on evidence, but still fundamentally faith. The only way is to pray for revelation and read the NT with an open mind.

"Rightly divided"? Does that mean interpreted with the conclusion in mind? I am not be facetious, I really don't know what that means.

Properly understood in context of God's plan for salvation as revealed in His Word.

Your second sentence is exactly what apologists websites do with scientific evidence to support creationist beliefs.

Care to substantiate that?

What is wrong with bringing to light ageement between the Bible and science? Surely this is what you want??

Surely you were not serious about the David Berkowicz thing?

 

[Djevv]

Look, I've been on the religion threads for what seems like an eternity, and I am going to drop out as I am somewhat weary of this issue. I think I have had my say and have little further to add. I think it would be great if other Christians would come on here and give a fresh perspective rather than just myself or Jay.

Anyway I wish Glanstone all the best with the rest of his journey.

Regards to all
DJ

 

[Rosy]

The flood judgement was send because the Earth was filled with violence and the thoughts and intents of mens hearts were evil and only evil. There was plenty of warning.

No good or decency whatsoever in mens hearts? Can anyone tell me the references in the bible to that? I'm interested to know if there were any good thoughts and intents following the flood or are all men still evil. :hihi

How much warning was there that women would forever more suffer painful childbirth when Eve ate the apple? God punished people in many ways merely because he was disobeyed.

 

[evo]

.... and while we're on a roll GEN 9: 20-25

And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.


Okay, Noah (God’s choice to man earth) wakes up with a hangover of biblical proportions after a night on the grappa, perhaps runs through the night’s events in his head and then lays a huge curse on Canaan.

Why curse Canaan?
What do Christians believe really went down in Noah’s seedy tent that night?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BH8U_z7Q6c&feature=related

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What ?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run" ;D
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done ?"
God says. "Out on Highway 61".

 

[glantone]

Look, I've been on the religion threads for what seems like an eternity, and I am going to drop out as I am somewhat weary of this issue. I think I have had my say and have little further to add. I think it would be great if other Christians would come on here and give a fresh perspective rather than just myself or Jay.

Anyway I wish Glanstone all the best with the rest of his journey.

Regards to all
DJ

Djevv,

I guess as a Christian you have emotional stakes invested in the OT where as I and perhaps others don’t. And as such I hope you’re just weary (bored) and not offended.

The OT thus far seems to me like an epic tale, a bed time story full of mythical events and adventures. I’m just waiting for the angry cyclops to come stomping around the mountain, all hairy back and protesting.

If the OT wasn’t held up as right and true by some Christians I could enjoy the ride but as this is not the case it seems only fair to open, and pick and pry and generally question some of the more controversial passages or concepts.

When you re-energize please drop back in to balance perspectives. Your participation has been great! .... and very educational.

 

[glantone]

evo, great song and clip. thanks