The Old Testament

[Rosy]

I’ll try to lift for you. Hard to make the time and find the energy - haven't read a page since you last asked. Negative vibes from both incredulous wife and 10 yr old son each time I head off to bed with a bible tucked under my wing doesn’t help either.

Funny. :hihi

I wouldn't have thought my previous questions were too hard so I'll ask again. Maybe you've even read verses that give the info I'm interested in glanton? If anyone has already answered I missed them sorry so please let me know and I'll search back.

Jayfox said (and I'm paraphrasing rather than looking up the exact quote).....

God can't sin or be evil against himself. Can anyone give me some relevant quotes where that's discussed in the bible?

Miracles happen because his friend was cured of a brain tumour. Why would god single one out yet let so many innocent people suffer? That's to you in particular jay. Doesn't it sound selfish, or self-serving, to claim your friend was cured by a miracle, especially when it's been claimed that disease and suffering are results of our own actions and not acts of God?

Does the bible say that snakes ever had legs or wings or is that a bit of an assumption? If the snake did have legs how many? I'm trying to form a mental image if a snake walking. Were they little and many like centipedes. Was it on 4 legs like the cattle it was lower than? Was it up on hind legs like a tyrannasaurus rex?

 

[Disco08]

I'd still like to know why snakes where punished at all given it was Satan and not a snake who stuffed everything up. Snakes had nothing to do with it.

 

[jayfox]

Funny. :hihi

I wouldn't have thought my previous questions were too hard so I'll ask again. Maybe you've even read verses that give the info I'm interested in glanton? If anyone has already answered I missed them sorry so please let me know and I'll search back.

Jayfox said (and I'm paraphrasing rather than looking up the exact quote).....

God can't sin or be evil against himself. Can anyone give me some relevant quotes where that's discussed in the bible?

Miracles happen because his friend was cured of a brain tumour. Why would god single one out yet let so many innocent people suffer? That's to you in particular jay. Doesn't it sound selfish, or self-serving, to claim your friend was cured by a miracle, especially when it's been claimed that disease and suffering are results of our own actions and not acts of God?

Does the bible say that snakes ever had legs or wings or is that a bit of an assumption? If the snake did have legs how many? I'm trying to form a mental image if a snake walking. Were they little and many like centipedes. Was it on 4 legs like the cattle it was lower than? Was it up on hind legs like a tyrannasaurus rex?

I have answered the cancer question. If you look back along my recent posts in this thread you will see it. As for the God sinning against Himself, The Bible is very clear that God is perfect and has a perfect will. If He is perfect then He would hardly break His own rules, thus making Him imperfect.

The Bible doesn't say if the snake had legs or not and doesn't clarify why an animal was punished for Satan's work. Perhaps the snake allowed Satan to use it as a vehicle to get to the people, I wouldn't have a clue. I can try to so some research on this if you like.

 

[Disco08]

Jay, don't you think this stuff makes far more sense when you view it as parable as so many other Christians do?

 

[Djevv]

Djevv,

I think it’s a safe bet the Tiges will win a flag before I finish.
Potent combination of a middle age, cozy bed and King James English …zzzzzzz ….

:hihi OK two things if you are going to attempt this: firstly get a modern translation(NIV?Message?) - it will bring the bible to life. Secondly, set yourself to read 1 or 2 chapters per night.

Ah well we know that you'll finish by the end of the season, remember Sheeds lol!

Anyway,…if God marked Cain to protect him from revengeful as yet unborn brothers why such a harsh punishment in the first place?

He murdered his brother. God let him off lightly.

On tv today I saw some Teleban activists holding down a man while another flogged him for his crime in the streets. Upon finishing the flogging they immediately helped him up and gently rubbed his back in a caring manner.
Fierce punishment combined with a caring touch...is it fair to say that God and the Teleban share some common ground?

I tend to think of radical Islam as an Old Testament like religion - at least in tems of their very harsh rules.

In order to protect Cain, his mark must have been visibly very very prominent so is it fair to assume that the woman who became his wife would have known his identity? His sad story must have been widely recognized as a classic bed time tale amongst generations of kids in those days.

Yep, there is a poem on Cain a little further on written by his remote descendant.

I’ll try to lift for you. Hard to make the time and find the energy - haven't read a page since you last asked. Negative vibes from both incredulous wife and 10 yr old son each time I head off to bed with a bible tucked under my wing doesn’t help either.

By the way, if upon their deaths Adam and Eve went to heaven, is it represented in the text or just a thing assumed?

It's not in the text but it seems that he worshipped God.

 

[Djevv]

I'd still like to know why snakes where punished at all given it was Satan and not a snake who stuffed everything up. Snakes had nothing to do with it.

Arrrgh, please no more snake questions!!

Here is an attempt at an answer - it's written for kids - but i'm not being patronising. It's a reasonable answer.

 

[Disco08]

Given that answer I'll happily leave the snake questions alone. There's obviously no reasonable answer.

 

[evo]

Given that answer I'll happily leave the snake questions alone. There's obviously no reasonable answer.

Look on the brightside. Hopefully the 9 year old will think to himself:Jeebuz, what a load of tosh that answer was. What else are the adults bullsh!tting to me about?

 

[jayfox]

Given that answer I'll happily leave the snake questions alone. There's obviously no reasonable answer.

I think that the basics of the answer are reasonable -

- Demons are spirits and have no physical form. They require a physical being to possess and control. The Bible has several descriptions of this occurring.
- God made something a symbol as a reminder to us of what happens when we sin. He did the same thing with rainbows after the Flood wiped out the Earth.

 

[Djevv]

Jay, don't you think this stuff makes far more sense when you view it as parable as so many other Christians do?

Whatever your doctinal stripe Christians always look for the typological/allegorical meanings in the text. If fact thats the main way Christians view the text (and this is so for the whole OT). They rarely go there to discover the nuances of snake biology or the mysteries of who Cain might have married. So yes it certainly makes sense as a parable - and more sense if it is in fact true!

 

[Disco08]

I was with you right up to the point where you said it makes more sense if it's true. This stuff is as far fetched as any fantasy novel.

- God made something a symbol as a reminder to us of what happens when we sin. He did the same thing with rainbows after the Flood wiped out the Earth.

Sorry Jay, but I think it's complete nonsense that God would disadvantage an entire (and innocent) species as a reminder to another species of something it needs no reminder of. How many people look at a snake and think, "I better not sin or my whole species might lose their eyesight, their legs or their brain"?.

It also seems strange to me that demons were so prevalent in The Bible's time but now they're completely extinct and all evidence of them has vanished.

 

[Rosy]

I can;t explain why God allows one to be saved and another to die. We have a friends who prayed that her Mum would be saved from cancer but she still died. Our friend is still really struggling with that. The only thing that can comfort her is that she knows that she will see her Mum again and that her Mum no longer has any pain or suffering at all.

That's interesting. It sounds like god actually chooses who lives and dies even if the reasons can't be explained. Does that apply to starvation, accidents etc or just to illness? I'm staggered to think any loving being would selectively allow some to live and others to die. In effect even if he ends the pain and suffering for those he allows to die he dosn't show much consideration for their loved ones left behind. It sure paints a selfish and mean spirited picture of such a powerful being in my opinion.

 

[Rosy]

Arrrgh, please no more snake questions!!

Here is an attempt at an answer - it's written for kids - but i'm not being patronising. It's a reasonable answer.

It still doesn't explain the part that intrigues me, that being if the snake ever had legs. It's an important point to me because if that assumption is made on the few words quoted about crawling on it's belly then I wonder what other massive assumptions/inaccurate interpretations are made based on personal interpretation rather than stated fact.

 

[jayfox]

I was with you right up to the point where you said it makes more sense if it's true. This stuff is as far fetched as any fantasy novel.

If it's such a lay down mazare that this is a fairy tale, why waste so much of your time debating it?

Sorry Jay, but I think it's complete nonsense that God would disadvantage an entire (and innocent) species as a reminder to another species of something it needs no reminder of. How many people look at a snake and think, "I better not sin or my whole species might lose their eyesight, their legs or their brain"?.

God put us clearly above all animals. You don't think that God would disadvantage another species for our benefit? Then why didn't he make us all vegetarians instead of giving us animals to use for food?

I do agree that people today do not look at a snake and say "I better not sin or my whole species might lose their eyesight, their legs or their brain" but the OT was written for a different people, thousands of years ago. I reckon for the first thousand years at least it would have been a strong reminder (given Adam lived for 930 years!).

It also seems strange to me that demons were so prevalent in The Bible's time but now they're completely extinct and all evidence of them has vanished.

They are not extinct or vanished. They are very cunning though. Who do you think people are talking to when they think that they are contacting their dead relatives through a medium or saence?

 

[Disco08]

If it's such a lay down mazare that this is a fairy tale, why waste so much of your time debating it?

I find it interesting that people believe it.

God put us clearly above all animals. You don't think that God would disadvantage another species for our benefit? Then why didn't he make us all vegetarians instead of giving us animals to use for food?

Great question. Instead of averting the massive amounts of animal cruelty driven by the need to feed billions of humans (which He would have obviously foreseen) by making us all vegetarian he chose for suffering. Again. Why?

I do agree that people today do not look at a snake and say "I better not sin or my whole species might lose their eyesight, their legs or their brain" but the OT was written for a different people, thousands of years ago. I reckon for the first thousand years at least it would have been a strong reminder (given Adam lived for 930 years!).

So the entire snake species was disadvantaged for the sake of a reminder that was only really effective for 1000 or so years?

Given God was routinely amongst people at this point I don't think they'd have needed any reminding. If they did need reminding, wouldn't the need to work the fields all day and the pain of childbirth been more than enough? While He was chatting with Adam and family why not just lay down the ground rules nice and simple, ten commandments style?

They are not extinct or vanished. They are very cunning though. Who do you think people are talking to when they think that they are contacting their dead relatives through a medium or saence?

Having recently seen the tricks these people use I'm extremely sceptical they're talking to anyone.

 

[jayfox]

Great question. Instead of averting the massive amounts of animal cruelty driven by the need to feed billions of humans (which He would have obviously foreseen) by making us all vegetarian he chose for suffering. Again. Why?

Because He knew that a real man needs to eat meat! ;D

He also would have known of the devastating affect making us all vegetarians would have had on the beef industry!

 

[Tiger74]

are we seriously debating God's persecution of snakes? :hihi

personally, I'm not a big fan of the things, so he can discriminate against them all He wants :clap

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

This has somewhat descended into a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" debate.

All pointless really if the main proposition fails......but kind of funny in an absurd sort of way.

 

[Disco08]

It's somewhat bound to happen given the content we're trying to discuss I guess.

 

[the claw]

Because He knew that a real man needs to eat meat! ;D

He also would have known of the devastating affect making us all vegetarians would have had on the beef industry!

as i have stated itsd been good to sit back and watch this debate.

but foxy loxy glib non answers like the above have me wanting to turn of.why not just say you dont know the answer.

i think you have done a very good job defending something that imo is indefensible.in a way youb have done better than the others even though you have lost if that makes sense.
ive looked into all sorts of pros and cons for their to be a god. ive looked into pros and cons on the veracity of the bible and most religions,

personally i believe theres a possibility that there could well be a higher being but one thing for sure noone has proved it or disproved it. based on fact and the way our knowledge is expanding i would say its unlikely there is a higher being. again in saying this i believe there is a possibility that a higher being could exist.

when it comes to the bible well imo its the greatest hoax to have ever been played on man. as for creation v evolution again i dont think either can proved. logic and common sense says to follow a path where facts take precedent whilst not necessarily proving its factual i think evolution has more merit.its based on something tangible.

anyway i digress fight the fight by all means you have your faith no matter how silly i think to be i say good onya. but please when debating on such a good thread lets keep the glibness out i say this not just to you but all participants.