The Old Testament

[Disco08]

So God punished all snakes by making them crawl on their bellies (I assume snakes somehow flew around up to this point) even though it was really just Satan dressed up as a snake? Sounds like pretty poor judgment to me.

Sorry Djevv - the whole thing makes no sense to me at all. Why would God create something He wasn't happy with when He could foresee the outcome? Wouldn't He just play around with things in his mind until He was happy with the way it all turned out?

Also, I didn't say it was illogical for God to create free will, I said it was illogical for a perfect being to devise anything that wasn't perfect.

One final question; If Satan 'fell' before Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge, where did the concept of evil arise?

 

[Djevv]

So God punished all snakes by making them crawl on their bellies (I assume snakes somehow flew around up to this point) even though it was really just Satan dressed up as a snake? Sounds like pretty poor judgment to me.

I'm not sure on how the snake related to Satan - but that is the point of the story.

Sorry Djevv - the whole thing makes no sense to me at all. Why would God create something He wasn't happy with when He could foresee the outcome? Wouldn't He just play around with things in his mind until He was happy with the way it all turned out?

We haven't got to the end yet! Maybe this is the best possible world with free will in it - this is my view.

Also, I didn't say it was illogical for God to create free will, I said it was illogical for a perfect being to devise anything that wasn't perfect.

But one entails the other. Just as the creation of light entails possible darkness.

One final question; If Satan 'fell' before Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge, where did the concept of evil arise?

Satan was the original sinner - Jesus makes that clear when he calls Satan 'the father of lies'.

 

[Disco08]

I'm not sure on how the snake related to Satan - but that is the point of the story.

Me either. I just find it strange that God would punish an entire species for Satan's deception.

We haven't got to the end yet! Maybe this is the best possible world with free will in it - this is my view.

We've been here before and I don't want to have another debate about it on a new thread.

But one entails the other. Just as the creation of light entails possible darkness.

That's not true at all. You're putting constraints particular to this universe onto God. Had God created all atoms in a way that they gave off light, then darkness wouldn't exist. It's only the way light works in this universe that allows darkness.

Free will only entails choice anyway. God could have given humans choice without creating evil.

Satan was the original sinner - Jesus makes that clear when he calls Satan 'the father of lies'.

Satan existed outside of this universe?

For Satan to have sinned, God must have created the concept of sin.

 

[jayfox]

Some people will never be happy regardless of how it is explained to them because they simply don't want to believe.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Some people will never be happy regardless of how it is explained to them because they simply don't want to believe.

Or....you could say some people will believe despite the glaring contradictions and logical inconsistencies because they simply want to believe.

And one can be perfectly happy without having to believe in things on faith.

 

[Disco08]

Some people will never be happy regardless of how it is explained to them because they simply don't want to believe.

Obviously this is aimed at me.

I don't decide ahead of time what I want to believe Jay. I judge each proposition by my own sense of logic. My logic says to me that the notions presented in Genesis are flawed at best. It has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting.

Don't you think that most non-believers would love to truly believe they're going to live in eternal paradise after they die? What motive could I have for not believing the Genesis creation account and other stories in The Bible?

 

[glantone]

Try turning the question around, is it impossible that a good God might create a universe where evil is possible?

No, I think that it is inevitable that a good God will create a universe where evil is possible. And I have no problem with that. Perfection schmefection!

I’m not sure how you would identify a perfect God if you bumped into one for a perfect God would make a perfect world in which everything would be perfect. Any experience other than one of perfection would be impossible to experience, wouldn’t it? With no other experience contrary to perfection available to experience how could one ever know if something was imperfect or not.

The only reason we can admire a perfect cold beer on a scorching hot day is if we’ve had a few less than perfect cold beers on those very same days in the past.

Anyway, back to the text as a biblical rookie reading Genesis for the 1st time I see God, in the context of the text thus far, as unimaginably powerful but terribly flawed.

By the way, I didn’t realize Satan had fallen from archangel to hells angel before Adam and Eve hit the scene. Where does Satan’s fall surface in the bible? … anyone know?

Anyway, given that God was aware of the dangers Satan posed I think God failed on a number of fronts:
- failed to educate Adam & Eve on the dangers of Satan
(Eve comes across as childlike and innocent at best, dull witted at worst, clearly not intellectually equipped to deal with Satan. And knowing nothing other than peace and harmony and an ideal existence how could Adam and Eve possibly be expected to cope with that forked tongued fruit merchant)
- failed to stop Satan from entering Eden
- failed to protect Eve

How could this have happened?

One thing I can think of is if God had have educated Adam and Eve on Satan and the dangers Satan posed I guess it would have been an admission that Eden is no paradise. There are dangers. God and his creation are not perfect but of course that is not supported by the text - it's just a thought.

It's difficult to imagine how God could have left them so vulnerable given the consequences.

Reserve the right to add to / change my mind tomorrow on this stuff. It's all guess work isn't it.

 

[1eyedtiger]

Or....you could say some people will believe despite the glaring contradictions and logical inconsistencies because they simply want to believe.

And one can be perfectly happy without having to believe in things on faith.

It's an interesting point that. I read a theory once that human's have an inbuilt need to believe in something. It's not a religious need but simply a need nevertheless. It's a theory that man made religions prey upon though. It's along the lines of if we didn't believe in anything, then we'd go insane. I don't believe in man made religions and I'm quite happy to believe in what I have experienced without the need to delve further. But having said that, if some people are incapable of coming up with their own conclusions and choose to adopt someones else's ideas, then I won't begrudge them that either. Sometimes, when I look at it this way, it doesn't matter whether your beliefs are true or false, it's the simple fact that you believe in something that is most important.

Just don't push your beliefs on everyone else and allow others free will. You may not like it, but it's not for you to like. Just accept others as they are.

 

[glantone]

Just don't push your beliefs on everyone else and allow others free will. You may not like it, but it's not for you to like. Just accept others as they are.

Hey, 1eyed,

that reminds me of a lovely episode called 'The Baptism' in 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' where Larry David is complaining about the compulsion Christians seem to have for forcing their beliefs on others. (No way relating this to you Djevv or Jayfox by the way, so stay cool)

He likened it to going around the world trying to force people to eat chicken.

"Here! Eat chicken! Chicken is good. Eat chicken!" he complains of christians.
"Don’t see jews going over to Africa saying hey Chicken! Eat this, Chicken! Chicken is good. Eat Chicken!" etc

 

[Djevv]

Me either. I just find it strange that God would punish an entire species for Satan's deception.

The spiritual nature of Man was altered by Sin so that He could not naturally commune with God any longer.

We've been here before and I don't want to have another debate about it on a new thread.

My point which I don't think you fully understood is that that this present universe is not the final state, Biblically. There will be a new Heaven and new Earth which will be perfect and contain creatures (us) with free will which don't use it for evil. This present Universe is 'passing away'.

That's not true at all. You're putting constraints particular to this universe onto God. Had God created all atoms in a way that they gave off light, then darkness wouldn't exist. It's only the way light works in this universe that allows darkness.

Ok, but it wouldn't be this universe! Anyway it was only an analogy. Just as darkness depends on light for existance and has no existance of it's own, so evil
is the lack of good (or NOT good) and has no existance of it's own - thus it was not created.

Free will only entails choice anyway. God could have given humans choice without creating evil.

Satan existed outside of this universe?

For Satan to have sinned, God must have created the concept of sin.

Sin was obviously around prior to Adam and Eve, hence the temptation. Satan is a spirit-being and has a different kind of existance from ours - so outside this universe would be accurate.

Sin is the act of saying 'No' to God. Satan 'created' this concept through his free-will.

 

[evo]

Sin was obviously around prior to Adam and Eve, hence the temptation.

In a litany of extraordinary claims, this one in particular is this most amazing of all, in my opinion.

One can only wonder what sin actually is if not an act performed by humans. How,say a rock could sin,one could only surmise.Where sin would reside one can only wonder.

Sin as a 'thing-itself',incredible really, I think may need have lie down after reading that. I very much doubt even the Pontiff himself believes that.

 

[jayfox]

In a litany of extraordinary claims, this one in particular is this most amazing of all, in my opinion.

One can only wonder what sin actually is if not an act performed by humans. How,say a rock could sin,one could only surmise.Where sin would reside one can only wonder.

Sin as a 'thing-itself',incredible really, I think may need have lie down after reading that. I very much doubt even the Pontiff himself believes that.

Sin is disobeying God and Satan sinned prior to Adam and Eve even being created so Djevv is absolutely correct. Of course a rock can't sin, that is ridiculous, it has no life or ability to make decisions, but a spiritual being obviously does, and Satan turned against God for his own purposes, which was sin.

 

[jayfox]

Obviously this is aimed at me.

I don't decide ahead of time what I want to believe Jay. I judge each proposition by my own sense of logic. My logic says to me that the notions presented in Genesis are flawed at best. It has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting.

Don't you think that most non-believers would love to truly believe they're going to live in eternal paradise after they die? What motive could I have for not believing the Genesis creation account and other stories in The Bible?

It wasn't specifically aimed at you, I was more just thinking out loud. Certainly you seem to be covered within that statement though. I guess the way that I see it is that people like yourself, PTFC and evo are all looking for the irrefutable evidence that God exists and if you don't get that then you will never believe. Well, you will never get that from Djevv or myself (and are unlikely to get it from God either). That is why it is called faith. A belief in a higher being, a greater purpose, an improbable, incomprehensible love. A reason for being. With enough historical and natural evidence, and lifetime experiences, to ensure a believer that He does actually exist. He doesn't want to hand it to you on a platter and say "Here I am! Now you must believe." He wants you to seek Him. To want to find Him. And if you are genuine in that search, you will find Him.

 

[evo]

Hmm ok,I must admit I forget you guys consider Satan is a real being and human-like.

So what you are saying is that the concept of "Original Sin" doesn't refer to the first sin at all. It probably needs a a more accurate name then I suppose.

If according to you the definition of sin is "disobeying God" then it would follow if there was no sentient beings to "disobey God" sin wouldn't exist. Fair?

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

It wasn't specifically aimed at you, I was more just thinking out loud. Certainly you seem to be covered within that statement though. I guess the way that I see it is that people like yourself, PTFC and evo are all looking for the irrefutable evidence that God exists and if you don't get that then you will never believe. Well, you will never get that from Djevv or myself (and are unlikely to get it from God either). That is why it is called faith. A belief in a higher being, a greater purpose, an improbable, incomprehensible love. A reason for being. With enough historical and natural evidence, and lifetime experiences, to ensure a believer that He does actually exist. He doesn't want to hand it to you on a platter and say "Here I am! Now you must believe." He wants you to seek Him. To want to find Him. And if you are genuine in that search, you will find Him.

This post is internally contradictory.

Yes, I require some form of evidence to believe in something, as do you, I would wager, for most things in your day to day life. I have never understood the idea that a God would provide us with critical faculties and then expect us to discard them in order to be 'saved'.

You say that I can't get irrefutable evidence of God's existence and then go onto say that if I am genuine in my search for Him that I will find him. How, if not by evidence? Faith is the suspension of disbelief, even in the absence of evidence. So, your own unshakable belief in your God is based in essence on faith alone. It is the prism that you view the world through and see 'evidence' where the absence of such a presupposition would suggest other, simpler, more plausible explanations.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Hmm ok,I must admit I forget you guys consider Satan is a real being and human-like.

So what you are saying is that the concept of "Original Sin" doesn't refer to the first sin at all. It probably needs a a more accurate name then I suppose.

If according to you the definition of sin is "disobeying God" then it would follow if there was no sentient beings to "disobey God" sin wouldn't exist. Fair?

You've raised an interesting point here. What are angels (including fallen ones)? Earlier creations of God? Clearly they pre-date man...Satan fell before the creation of Adam and Eve. So "In the beginning" is relative to this universe?

I thought that in heaven, even if free-will exists that everyone would choose to follow God, because they are in his presence. Does this not apply to angels?

I am confused. ???

 

[jayfox]

Hmm ok,I must admit I forget you guys consider Satan is a real being and human-like.

So what you are saying is that the concept of "Original Sin" doesn't refer to the first sin at all. It probably needs a a more accurate name then I suppose.

If according to you the definition of sin is "disobeying God" then it would follow if there was no sentient beings to "disobey God" sin wouldn't exist. Fair?

Original Sin refers to man's original sin against God. As the Bible is written from human perspective it was the first time the human race sinned against God - hence why it is called original sin. I don;t really think it needs a name change as what we call it is largely irrelevant and majoring in minors. The fact that it happened is the main point, regardless of what people have come to call it.

If there were no sentient beings, spiritual or physical, then yes there would be no sin as only God would exist and God does not sin against himself.

 

[jayfox]

This post is internally contradictory.

Yes, I require some form of evidence to believe in something, as do you, I would wager, for most things in your day to day life. I have never understood the idea that a God would provide us with critical faculties and then expect us to discard them in order to be 'saved'.

You say that I can't get irrefutable evidence of God's existence and then go onto say that if I am genuine in my search for Him that I will find him. How, if not by evidence? Faith is the suspension of disbelief, even in the absence of evidence. So, your own unshakable belief in your God is based in essence on faith alone. It is the prism that you view the world through and see 'evidence' where the absence of such a presupposition would suggest other, simpler, more plausible explanations.

What we consider evidence differs. I consider life experience's, feeling God's presence, the writings in the Bible, amazing occurrences, and a God-given assurance to be evidence enough. You seem to need to be able to dig it up and physically look at it or break it down and see it's chemical compound to believe. Jesus said to Thomas in that famous visit after his resurrection - ""Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

 

[evo]

Original Sin refers to man's original sin against God. As the Bible is written from human perspective it was the first time the human race sinned against God - hence why it is called original sin. I don;t really think it needs a name change as what we call it is largely irrelevant and majoring in minors. The fact that it happened is the main point, regardless of what people have come to call it.

fair enough.

If there were no sentient beings, spiritual or physical, then yes there would be no sin as only God would exist and God does not sin against himself.

Ok this is good, I can work with this. It is usually quite rare to pin a theist down on a clear definition of something.

So we can conclude that within your paradigm there is no sin "out there"; as a thing-itself. Sin is a phenomena between you and God.

This is the part I'm really interested in: what then is the definition of evil within your worldview? Is that of the same order as sin?

 

[Rosy]

God does not sin against himself.

How do you know that?