The Old Testament

[glantone]

Just started on a epic journey into the unknown – reading the OT (something I've long wanted to do) and thought it deserved a dedicated thread. The christianity thread is already quite long.

As I’m reading I’m thinking (and apologies if the answers come later in the text because I’m just a few pages in) how was the knowledge of creation (the 7 days, Adam & Eve etc) first communicated and to whom? Once received how was it recorded and passed on?

If god spoke, what language was it that he spoke and how would he have been understood or was the knowledge of creation something that god communicated much later when spoken language was organised.

And when god spoke to Adam and the serpent – again what form of communication or artistic liscence is at play here?

 

[evo]

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

..is a logical fallacy.It is 'begging the question',not to mention that it is also semantically ludicrous; and it's all down hill after that. ;D

Anyway,enjoy.

 

[Liverpool]

How many religion threads do we need? ???

 

[Disco08]

You don't have to read them.

 

[glantone]

evo,
I’m predicting the Old Testament is a beautiful book to tackle because even people like me who have never read it and have been brought up by folks who have never read it are subject to its spell.
And when you think about it, that is some accomplishment. So for me, the text is well worth investigating.

chairman Liverpool,
with all due respect this is the Race, Religion & Politics section, is it not?
Scroll down the index and you’ll see threads related to Race, Religion & Politics, right?

Coincidental? …No, I could be wrong but I don’t think so on this occasion - I’m simply not that superstitious. I’m guessing there’s a reason behind it.

If you want to stifle religious debate there are plenty of more influential options to do so than on this particular website. For more information and pen pals of similar ilk please contact the embassies or websites of similar ilk where talk of god ist dast forbidden wang dong soong ja! FIRE!!! OONT RELOAD!!!

 

[jayfox]

Just started on a epic journey into the unknown – reading the OT (something I've long wanted to do) and thought it deserved a dedicated thread. The christianity thread is already quite long.

As I’m reading I’m thinking (and apologies if the answers come later in the text because I’m just a few pages in) how was the knowledge of creation (the 7 days, Adam & Eve etc) first communicated and to whom? Once received how was it recorded and passed on?

If god spoke, what language was it that he spoke and how would he have been understood or was the knowledge of creation something that god communicated much later when spoken language was organised.

And when god spoke to Adam and the serpent – again what form of communication or artistic liscence is at play here?

Good on you for having a crack at reading the OT Glantone. It's got some pretty heavy sections in there which are hard to plough through for even experienced, committed Christians, but it does give a great insight into how this world started, who God is, and what kind of relationship He wanted with us. I'm not going to give you my thoughts on the OT as I reckon it would be great for you to come to your own conclusion and I'd be really interested to read them if you are willing to post them here. I'd be happy to try to answer any questions you may have as you go along though.

Re the above - Moses actually wrote Genesis and you will read about him shortly. I assume it was initially recorded on scrolls and passed on but I'd need to do a bit more research on that to be sure.

God did speak with Adam and Eve but I'm not sure what language was used. I would assume that it was Ancient Hebrew but with God's ability to speak directly to our minds perhaps no specific language was used at all?

I don't personally believe that artistic license was used in the OT and I believe that if you believe that God is capable of anything then the stories which seem unlikely to be true could well be true with God's intervention.

Anyhow, good luck with it. I've just started a bit of a study of it myself and have found that a good study guide can really help with understanding the contexts, traditions, and cultures of the times.

 

[Djevv]

Just started on a epic journey into the unknown – reading the OT (something I've long wanted to do) and thought it deserved a dedicated thread. The christianity thread is already quite long.

As I’m reading I’m thinking (and apologies if the answers come later in the text because I’m just a few pages in) how was the knowledge of creation (the 7 days, Adam & Eve etc) first communicated and to whom? Once received how was it recorded and passed on?

If god spoke, what language was it that he spoke and how would he have been understood or was the knowledge of creation something that god communicated much later when spoken language was organised.

And when god spoke to Adam and the serpent – again what form of communication or artistic liscence is at play here?

Certainly a good and worthwhile project Glantone. All the best. Remember there are plenty of online commentaries (Jewish and Christian) that might be able to clarify certain difficult passages.

 

[glantone]

....... Moses actually wrote Genesis and you will read about him shortly. I assume it was initially recorded on scrolls and passed on but I'd need to do a bit more research on that to be sure.

God did speak with Adam and Eve but I'm not sure what language was used. I would assume that it was Ancient Hebrew but with God's ability to speak directly to our minds perhaps no specific language was used at all?

I don't personally believe that artistic license was used in the OT and I believe that if you believe that God is capable of anything then the stories which seem unlikely to be true could well be true with God's intervention.

Hey thanks, Jay and Djev, appreciate your help and advice.
And thanks for the Moses tip. Can always do with a good Moses tip! ;D

Regarding events that do not make sense, are not logical, are unlikely is it reasonable to assume that in order to trust the OT as right and true you first have to have made up your mind that it is true (before commencing to read it) or at the very least have made that leap of faith into a world where reason and logic are subordinate to the story and the telling of the story, otherwise, on what grounds could the OT be believed?
Is this a fair statement to make?

Regarding artistic liscence - God said, “let there be light” is this not Moses taking artistic liscence in the telling of the story for to whom would god be speaking? There was no other.
It should simply read ‘God created light’ shouldn’t it?

For me this is important because if we accept any notion of Moses taking artistic liscence in the telling of the story then the telling of the story takes on great significance. Everything contained within the story is in the telling.

These are problems I face when starting to read the OT. Are they valid, do you think?

 

[Rosy]

Hasn't it been claimed on here that the OT is out of date and irrelevant now?

 

[Djevv]

Hey thanks, Jay and Djev, appreciate your help and advice.
And thanks for the Moses tip. Can always do with a good Moses tip! ;D

Regarding events that do not make sense, are not logical, are unlikely is it reasonable to assume that in order to trust the OT as right and true you first have to have made up your mind that it is true (before commencing to read it) or at the very least have made that leap of faith into a world where reason and logic are subordinate to the story and the telling of the story, otherwise, on what grounds could the OT be believed?
Is this a fair statement to make?

I think Gen 1 is pure divine revelation. God was there, we weren't. I don't think you need worry too much about faith/belief - just take it at face value. The prose is generally straightforward. The stories have layers of meaning, literal, metaphorical, spiritual. Do you have to believe the whole thing to enjoy the read?

Regarding artistic liscence - God said, “let there be light” is this not Moses taking artistic liscence in the telling of the story for to whom would god be speaking? There was no other.
It should simply read ‘God created light’ shouldn’t it?

Yes it is about the creation of light, but the idea is God SPOKE by faith into nothing and it came to be. Creation by and through His WORD (Jesus).

For me this is important because if we accept any notion of Moses taking artistic liscence in the telling of the story then the telling of the story takes on great significance. Everything contained within the story is in the telling.

These are problems I face when starting to read the OT. Are they valid, do you think?

You just have to make these decisions for yourself. As Moses believed this was the very God speaking to him, I doubt he would 'make stuff up' - but what was the nature of the revelation - vision, dream, narrative, dictation? Your guess is as good as mine. Personally I think Moses put together the writings of previous generations at well as his own revelations and worked into a whole - the Pentateuch.

Anyway keep reading!

 

[Djevv]

Hasn't it been claimed on here that the OT is out of date and irrelevant now?

I spent a lot of time on 'Christianity' talking to Disco about this. Basically stated the NT indicates Christians don't have to follow the Jewish religion. The OT is God's revelation, however, and you can learn a lot about Him by studying it.

 

[Rosy]

I spent a lot of time on 'Christianity' talking to Disco about this. Basically stated the NT indicates Christians don't have to follow the Jewish religion. The OT is God's revelation, however, and you can learn a lot about Him by studying it.

Yeah I remember jayfox mentioning it was outdated and replaced with the NT. It surprised me how the goalposts can be moved to suit. I wonder if one day there will be a Newer Testamant and things in the NT will be considered obsolete too.

 

[Djevv]

Yeah I remember jayfox mentioning it was outdated and replaced with the NT. It surprised me how the goalposts can be moved to suit. I wonder if one day there will be a Newer Testamant and things in the NT will be considered obsolete too.

The Bible is a progressive revelation, Rosy. Jesus is the fullest revelation of God - so there will be no further covenants until His return. Jesus loved and reverenced the scriptures (the OT) so obsolete is the wrong word. I can go some distance with the moving the goalposts, but the goalposts were moved to make things easier and more accessable for us.

 

[Rosy]

so obsolete is the wrong word.

Ok change "obsolete" to the laws of the OT being "replaced". Doesn't make much difference to me. I still find it strange that the laws can changed, and are not meant to be taken literally, yet they are quoted so readily when it suits. I don't see how many can have such absolute faith when the rules can be altered to suit.

 

[jayfox]

A very poor layman's summary of Old and New Testament could go like this -

The OT is about Man getting to know God. Him revealing things about Himself to us but laying down some pretty strict rules because, as a race in it's infancy, we needed strong guidance. A bit like the way that a parent raises a young child - Show them that you love them, teach them lots of things but also teach them right from wrong and help them understand that there are penalties for poor behaviour.

The NT is a fuller revelation of God in the form of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, given to us at a time when God knew that we were ready for it and also needed it. The rules may not seem quite as strict, perhaps like we give our teenagers more freedom to start to make, and be responsible for, their own decisions. And there is a definite teaching about our relationships with other people and that we should love people rather than hate them.

God has revealed Himself to us through these Testaments as we as a people needed it. No one Testament is more important than another as they both teach us about God. There are some rules that have altered since Jesus' coming and so they supercede OT rules that previously taught otherwise. As for whether the NT needs an update, the NT tells of what happens at the end of the world as we know it, so it will clearly not be updated at all. It's prophecies will be realized to their full extent though and at that time a new era of people living directly with God (or completely without him and his creation, per their choice) will occur.

 

[evo]

Judeofox,

What about the Gospel of Thomas? Where does that fit into your schemata?

Heresy?

 

[jayfox]

Judeofox,

What about the Gospel of Thomas? Where does that fit into your schemata?

Heresy?

To be honest, I don't know much about the Gospel of Thomas. I know that it is not included in any mainstream Bible and that no major Christian group accepts this gospel as canonical or authoritative. I'm also pretty comfortable in believing that an omnipotent God is capable of putting together a book that gives us all the information that we need to believe in Him, so it is a bit of a non-event for me.

 

[tigertim]

And you're just telling me now that there's an OLD testament?

 

[evo]

Jobfox,

However it was men(rather than God) who decided which books would be in the Bible and which wouldn't, right?

The Gospel of Thomas is a report of many of the sayings by Jesus himself. Yet it is not relevant according to the church it seems. Rather strange wouldn't you say?

 

[Djevv]

A very poor layman's summary of Old and New Testament could go like this -

The OT is about Man getting to know God. Him revealing things about Himself to us but laying down some pretty strict rules because, as a race in it's infancy, we needed strong guidance. A bit like the way that a parent raises a young child - Show them that you love them, teach them lots of things but also teach them right from wrong and help them understand that there are penalties for poor behaviour.

The NT is a fuller revelation of God in the form of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, given to us at a time when God knew that we were ready for it and also needed it. The rules may not seem quite as strict, perhaps like we give our teenagers more freedom to start to make, and be responsible for, their own decisions. And there is a definite teaching about our relationships with other people and that we should love people rather than hate them.

God has revealed Himself to us through these Testaments as we as a people needed it. No one Testament is more important than another as they both teach us about God. There are some rules that have altered since Jesus' coming and so they supercede OT rules that previously taught otherwise. As for whether the NT needs an update, the NT tells of what happens at the end of the world as we know it, so it will clearly not be updated at all. It's prophecies will be realized to their full extent though and at that time a new era of people living directly with God (or completely without him and his creation, per their choice) will occur.

Good post there Foxy-Loxy!