Terrorist attacks in Paris

[millar time]

Hitchens on Islam - tell me where he's got it wrong.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_urbanities-steyn.html

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

It's got nothing to do with the cause.

To my mind a terrorist is one who inflicts terror on their targets. I'm pretty sure many of the targets at Port Arthur and Hoddle St would have experienced terror.

I'm not sure that's what "terrorism" is. When those sprees were over, they were over.

When something inevitably happens here, Australians will have to make a conscious choice about whether to attend events that draw a crowd. And that's the essence of terrorism.

 

[Rosy]

am i right in assuming this mass killing is a terrorist act cos the killers were muslims?
........

Recent reports on ABC news starting to indicate you might be spot on in your assumption it was a terrorist act. Being investigated as such at the moment at least.

 

[YinnarTiger]

Recent reports on ABC news starting to indicate you might be spot on in your assumption it was a terrorist act. Being investigated as such at the moment at least.

I think Brodders might have been alluding to the reason it is being labelled terrorism.

 

[Sintiger]

Recent reports on ABC news starting to indicate you might be spot on in your assumption it was a terrorist act. Being investigated as such at the moment at least.

When you have been building a cache of weapons and have acquired combat gear it's pretty certain it's a terrorist act whatever the reason for it imo.

I read last night that he had been getting into arguments with a jewish work colleague (who was killed) about Islam. Of course getting into arguments is not a reason for mass murder but it may be a clue as to what was triggering his mindset or where his mind was. The arguments may also have been a result of his radicalisation.

Who knows?

 

[AngryAnt]

Well that excuses everyone. Case closed, continue murdering.

How trite.

Not at all. It's a cop-out to say "these people are craazzzyyyyy" - and nor does it solve anything, or provide us with any sort of strategy to combat radical recruitment strategies.

But then again it's how you see the world. ALL OF ISLAM IS OUT TO GET US. I don't imagine I'll change your mind on that.

 

[Sintiger]

Not at all. It's a cop-out to say "these people are craazzzyyyyy" - and nor does it solve anything, or provide us with any sort of strategy to combat radical recruitment strategies.

I was talking to a Lebanese muslim recently and the part he was struggling with was that any sympathy for ISIS (which he said was a very small minority of the people he knew) was not coming from those born in the middle east it was coming from their offspring who were born and raised in this country. He said the feeling from immigrants was that they were incredibly grateful to be here. The only clue he had was that those who have lived in the middle east understand it better and the younger ones have a more utopian view of it. They also have social media which is influential.

There has to be a clue here, not an answer but a starting point. Why is it that way?

The older generation of muslims here have an attitude that you can teach and guide your kids, reverence to elders is part of how they have been brought up. The younger generation have been brought up that way too but they have also been brought up in a society that has different values, they think differently to their parents.

None of this excuses murder of course but unless we attack the root cause and understand it we won't solve it.

 

[tigertim]

No

Didn't Moris get a hostage to hold up an ISIS flag during the siege? That's a link to ISIS isn't it?

 

[TigerForce]

I was talking to a Lebanese muslim recently and the part he was struggling with was that any sympathy for ISIS (which he said was a very small minority of the people he knew) was not coming from those born in the middle east it was coming from their offspring who were born and raised in this country. He said the feeling from immigrants was that they were incredibly grateful to be here. The only clue he had was that those who have lived in the middle east understand it better and the younger ones have a more utopian view of it. They also have social media which is influential.

There has to be a clue here, not an answer but a starting point. Why is it that way?

The older generation of muslims here have an attitude that you can teach and guide your kids, reverence to elders is part of how they have been brought up. The younger generation have been brought up that way too but they have also been brought up in a society that has different values, they think differently to their parents.

None of this excuses murder of course but unless we attack the root cause and understand it we won't solve it.

You would think that a younger generation adapting to a more Western life would've phased out this terrorism, but it seems to be the opposite. Is social media the devil in all of this? Bored youth? Is this a fad?

 

[AngryAnt]

It's often the second or third generation that want to "rediscover their roots".

 

[Sintiger]

It's often the second or third generation that want to "rediscover their roots".

yes and the older ones know that the roots aren't all their cracked up to be.

 

[bullus_hit]

Not at all. It's a cop-out to say "these people are craazzzyyyyy" - and nor does it solve anything, or provide us with any sort of strategy to combat radical recruitment strategies.

But then again it's how you see the world. ALL OF ISLAM IS OUT TO GET US. I don't imagine I'll change your mind on that.

True, the more you marginalise people, the more likely they are to turn to radicalism. The calls from the right for Muslims to self regulate their behaviour might have an essence of truth but where are they getting airtime? I don't see the commercial media giving voice to moderates, of course that won't sell their newspapers or bump up the TV ratings. The hypocrisy of Rupert Murdoch to whip up a frenzy when it comes to crimes committed by dark skinned people - terrorists the lot of them. But then to defend groups like the gun lobby when white skinned folk walk into kindergartens and gun down scores of children reeks of shameless ignorance, or worse still, greed grounded in immorality. If we are genuinely concerned by radical Islam then we should not be pointing the finger at Islam, but instead examining the shades of grey that exist in a very broad church.

I ask this question legitimately, who can actually tell me the difference between Sunnis & Shiites? Why have they been feuding for so long and which group represents the best ally in the fight against radicalism?

 

[WesternTiger]

This is where we disagree. Charlie hedbo, the Bataclan, 9/11 the same. Denial of Islam"s involvement is fundamentally wrong.

I'll take my lead from guys like hitchens, Dawkins, Harris who have all identified the dangers of Islam.

Plenty of great interviews/debates online between those 3 and various Muslims, Christians and other religious thinkers. none where logic doesn't win out. Islam exposed as clearly the most dangerous of all religions.

They are all dangerous as has been witnessed throughout history. Could be strongly argued that the current situation was initiated by the Christian west in 2003. That false war killed more Muslims by an order of magnitude than the innocent Chistrians IS will ever kill.

 

[AngryAnt]

I ask this question legitimately, who can actually tell me the difference between Sunnis & Shiites? Why have they been feuding for so long and which group represents the best ally in the fight against radicalism?

It's all to do with the early days of the religion - who was the first Caliph after Mohammad. Sunnis say it was one guy, Shia another. Sunnis are the big majority globally, about 80% I think. ISIS is Sunni, but they are an extreme of Salafist/Wahhabist Sunni Islam.

Who is the better ally? I would say both/none. Each of the branches is so diverse and so populous it make no sense to see one as bad and the other good. It would depend on the location/circumstances. In Southeast Asia Muslims are mostly Sunni. At times Sunni/Shia have lived together peacefully, at other times they have clashed. Muslims are all still people - we have to deal with them one way or another.

All sectarian warfare is *smile* in any case IMO

 

[Sintiger]

This is not directly about the terrorist issue but it is just plain scary. The fact is that a lot of what happens in the US could not happen, at least to the extent that it does, if epople couldn't get guns so easily. To me there is a real sickness in US society.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/nevada-republican-michele-fiore-sends-family-christmas-card-featuring-guns-20151205-glgcni.html

Nevada Republican, Michele Fiore, sends family Christmas card featuring guns

They are "just your ordinary American family".

Nevada state representative Michele Fiore, a Republican, posted her Christmas card to Facebook on Monday, US time, featuring her heavily-armed family smiling for the camera.

"It's up to Americans to protect America," the caption read. "We're just your ordinary American family".

The caption was signed "with love and liberty".

Along with the usual Christmas decorations, the card shows seven members of the family holding weapons, including her daughters, Sheena and Savanah, and her mother Lill.

Grandchildren Jake, Jayden, Mara and Morrigan are also pictured.

Jake, who Ms Fiore's website says is at least five, is holding a Walther P22.

A detail in the top-left of the card even lists the model of guns.

A Beretta 92FS, Glock 30 .45ACP, Serbu Super Shorty 12-gauge shotgun, Extar EXP-556, Walther p22, Glock 19 9 millimetre, and a Glock 30 .45ACP.

Ms Fiore is well-known in the US for her gun advocacy, and her Facebook page is littered with images of her posing with automatic weapons.

In 2014 she made headlines for her comments during an armed standoff between a Nevada rancher and US federal agents.

"Don't come here with guns and expect the American people not to fire back," she said at the time.

The post was made only two days before 14 people were killed and 21 injured in a mass shooting in San Bernardino in California.

Ms Fiore also posted a photo of herself holding a gun the day after the shooting.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/nevada-republican-michele-fiore-sends-family-christmas-card-featuring-guns-20151205-glgcni.html#ixzz3tRDKLMrV
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Not at all. It's a cop-out to say "these people are craazzzyyyyy" - and nor does it solve anything, or provide us with any sort of strategy to combat radical recruitment strategies.

But then again it's how you see the world. ALL OF ISLAM IS OUT TO GET US. I don't imagine I'll change your mind on that.

You want strategy? Step 1 - contain the threat, freeze Muslim immigration. So obvious yet seemingly so difficult.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Didn't Moris get a hostage to hold up an ISIS flag during the siege? That's a link to ISIS isn't it?

Was it an ISIS flag? I didn't think it was, just some scary Arabic writing.

He was obviously influenced in some roundabout way by IS, without being trained, controlled or supported by them. That's part of the strategy, encouraging individual Muslims to attack their hosts. So in that sense there was a link to IS, albeit a very nebulous one.

 

[glantone]

This is not directly about the terrorist issue but it is just plain scary. The fact is that a lot of what happens in the US could not happen, at least to the extent that it does, if epople couldn't get guns so easily. To me there is a real sickness in US society.


Jim Jeffrries on gun control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4

 

[AngryAnt]

You want strategy? Step 1 - contain the threat, freeze Muslim immigration. So obvious yet seemingly so difficult.

Step 2 - detain and incarcerate all 300000 Muslims in Australian society. We must contain the threat.

Seems so obvious and yet so difficult.

 

[zgod]

Muslims are all still people - we have to deal with them one way or another

Much like we have to unfortunately deal with Christianity in our political system.
Seriously, in the golden age of science we are still waging wars and judging people based on camp fire fables concocted 2000 + years ago. :hihi