Talking Politics

[DavidSSS]

If you look at the price to earnings ratio the markets should fall. The question is more whether the markets will be propped up if they start to wobble. Interest rate cuts may not fix the problem but quantitative easing can. They've done it before, I see no reason they will stop.

As for companies, they are a separate legal person, this is not an opinion, it is a legal fact. If they were not a separate legal person then the owners (shareholders) would have liability for any losses made. Can't have one without the other (you can change the terminology but it amounts to the same thing). I know most people won't agree with me on franking credits, I understand the arguments, I just disagree with them. Worth remembering that the following countries have franking credits or equivalent (generally referred to as imputation): Australia, Canada, Chile, Korea, Mexico and New Zealand. Not many countries do this. Also, the following countries used to have dividend imputation but no longer do: UK, Ireland, Germany, Singapore, Italy, Finland, France, Norway and Malaysia. Most countries do not do this, only a very small number of countries have some sort of dividend imputation.

Capital gains tax discounts are a joke. Apart from the fact that rentiers get a tax break over those who actually work, think about this in the context of equities. You buy shares in Company A on the market - you make a profit and, if you own the shares for more than 12 months then you get a tax discount of 50%. The argument is that you contributed to the company and your investment was for a sustained period of time, but that is complete bollocks. Unless you buy the shares in a public offer, you contributed nothing to the company. 100% of the purchase price went to the person selling the shares and 0% to the company. There is an argument for a capital gains discount for shares bought as part of a public offer, ie where the company is either doing an initial public offer or is raising capital, otherwise it is BS.

If the excrement hits the cooling device I suspect it will be after the US election as everything will be done to prevent it before then.

I wouldn't so much be pointing to politicians being idiots, I would more point to mainstream economics being idiocy.

DS

 

[Sintiger]

I'm at polar opposites to you on Capital Gains, Franking credits and consumption tax simply because you're never going to tax an economy into prosperity. We'd be better off flattening the tax system which would encourage those who have their back to the economic wheel to push harder. Franking credits, as i think Sintiger pointed out is ensuring income isn't taxed twice. I wouldn't call a company a seperate person, or you might have Albanese and Chalmers up for man slaughter. I'm guessing yopu meant separate legal entity. You have to remember that any company that's making money is doing so because someone put their own money down and took a risk. If their risk is paying off, then they are emplying others who are also therefore gaining wealth. If government keeps making the risk / reward equation look less positive, less people will take a risk, less companies will exist, and less people will have jobs.

I worked a number of years ago for a US MNC and what I saw with them and many others in relation to tax minimisation made me come to the conclusion that if Australia reduced the company tax rate we would probably earn more tax from overseas entities. Large MNCs try to minimise profits in countries that have higher tax rates and they are largely successful despite a lot of effort by tax authorities looking at royalty payments, transfer pricing and thin capitalisation (as examples). Not many MNCs make large taxable profits in Australia.

In regard to dividend imputation one other way of doing it is to make dividend payments by companies tax deductible. Those dividends would then be fully taxed in the hands of the recipient and if the shareholder was a non resident there could be a witholding tax levied.

The term company as a legal person is one that is used quite a lot. For instance the AICD use that term in their education material because it is illustrative that company has some of the same rights as a natural person and can incur debt, be sued etc. It is semantics in the end but makes the point.

 

[MD Jazz]

I thought the elites controlled the markets/prices etc and we were just puppets? How can anyone confidently forecast movements and speculate in the market under those conditions?

Frick may very well be part of the elites, probably some sort of plant.

 

[Baloo]

How can anyone confidently forecast movements and speculate in the market under those conditions?

You need to study their moves. The Elites typically make September a volatile month for the US markets, so unless you've been given the inside word that the Elites are changing their tactics, you can expect a volatile month in September.

 

[K3]

So Ralph Babet’s loony “excess deaths” senate inquiry has spectacularly backfired as expected. Not only did the findings predictably go against what he was hoping for, but he is likely to get himself into legal trouble for heavily editing his senate inquiry questions and posting them on twitter.

This crazy cooker is not fit to serve parliament and there needs to be some trigger to expel people like him. He’s turning the senate into a laughing stock and it’s not good for the credibility of Australian politics.

On another note, after beating cancer 3 times in 2 years, the brilliant Fiona Patten is making a comeback and will be standing for the Legalise Cannabis Party in the next federal election. She will help bring back integrity to the Senate. Happy days

Also, Babet shouldn't be getting paid by us, and paid bloody well, to be an utter moron while discrediting parliament even further. Absolute oxygen thief.

I like Paton, but not sure if the Cannabis Party is the way to go. Wonder why she didn't run as an independent...

 

[AngryAnt]

I thought the elites controlled the markets/prices etc and we were just puppets? How can anyone confidently forecast movements and speculate in the market under those conditions?

Frick may very well be part of the elites, probably some sort of plant.

He's an elaborate WEF psy-op

 

[Brodders17]

You need to study their moves. The Elites typically make September a volatile month for the US markets, so unless you've been given the inside word that the Elites are changing their tactics, you can expect a volatile month in September.

Is that cos the world is distracted by the finals?

 

[AngryAnt]

Also, Babet shouldn't be getting paid by us, and paid bloody well, to be an utter moron while discrediting parliament even further. Absolute oxygen thief.

I like Paton, but not sure if the Cannabis Party is the way to go. Wonder why she didn't run as an independent...

One would hope the electorate will have tired of his BS by next time, but there are probably enough cookers out there to re-elect him. Also the Senate has long terms.

"Unrepresentative swill" - PJK

 

[Ian4]

Also, Babet shouldn't be getting paid by us, and paid bloody well, to be an utter moron while discrediting parliament even further. Absolute oxygen thief.

I wonder what Clive thinks of him. he spent $100milion+ to get this flog elected.

I like Paton, but not sure if the Cannabis Party is the way to go. Wonder why she didn't run as an independent...

She will win a senate spot with legalise cannabis. she won't as an independent.

One would hope the electorate will have tired of his BS by next time, but there are probably enough cookers out there to re-elect him. Also the Senate has long terms.

"Unrepresentative swill" - PJK

no, there aren't enough cookers out there to re-elect him. People just didn't know what he was until people heard him speak. We're stuck with him til 2028 unless there is a DD.

 

[Baloo]

Is that cos the world is distracted by the finals?

Nah, start of the AFLW is what distracts the Elites

 

[Baloo]

Wow, Bill Shorten retiring today according to The Age. That's going to be a blow to the NDIS. He's always been very passionate about the NDIS. But he will always carry the legacy of the man that let Scott Morrisson become PM.

 

[Sintiger]

Wow, Bill Shorten retiring today according to The Age. That's going to be a blow to the NDIS. He's always been very passionate about the NDIS. But he will always carry the legacy of the man that let Scott Morrisson become PM.

I have had a tiny bit to do with Bill Shorten but have worked with people who know him much better than me.
I reckon he was a pretty ordinary politician and Labor leader but from my understanding he is actually a very decent man. He has genuinely committed to improving the NDIS but how successful he has been with that is questionable, but time will tell.

 

[Brodders17]

I have had a tiny bit to do with Bill Shorten but have worked with people who know him much better than me.
I reckon he was a pretty ordinary politician and Labor leader but from my understanding he is actually a very decent man. He has genuinely committed to improving the NDIS but how successful he has been with that is questionable, but time will tell.

Shorten has definitely been passionate about the NDIS, and was one of the early drivers. For that he will leave a lasting positive legacy few politicians do.
But at the moment he is doing a terrible job with the NDIS and needs to go. (hopefully to be replaced by someone who shares his passion.)
If only Australian politics would allow a member of another party to hold a portfolio.
Jordan John-Steele would be perfect.

 

[Sintiger]

Shorten has definitely been passionate about the NDIS, and was one of the early drivers. For that he will leave a lasting positive legacy few politicians do.
But at the moment he is doing a terrible job with the NDIS and needs to go. (hopefully to be replaced by someone who shares his passion.)
If only Australian politics would allow a member of another party to hold a portfolio.
Jordan John-Steele would be perfect.

You may be right Brodders. I am no expert on the NDIS.

One thing I have learned in dealing in the public sector is that sometimes well meaning politicians just get beaten by the bureaucrats, they can’t move them. I wonder whether the NDIS is in this basket, it’s just too bureaucratic !!

 

[tigerman]

Good riddance to Shorten, a snake in the grass.

 

[IanG]

Good riddance to Shorten, a snake in the grass.

He hasn't undermined Albo has he?

 

[tigerman]

He hasn't undermined Albo has he?

Not that I know of, he undermined myself and my workmates 20 odd years ago

 

[MB78]

I don't mind governments selling public housing as it gives people a permanent house of their own, logic would say that those houses need to be replaced.

It doesn't help when Coalition governments don't believe in helping the less fortunate. The Hawke Government built an average of 12,563 social houses in each of it's 8 years in government (100,504).
The average number of public housing dwellings built annually by the Keating Government was 8,514. Through the Howard years, this dropped to 4,346. The Rudd and Gillard period, most of which was impacted by the GFC, averaged 6,402.
In stark contrast to these, the average under the Coalition – during an unprecedented global building boom – is just 3,060.

Homes Alone: despite record rates, Australia lags world as housing crisis grips - Michael West

Thinking of building a new house? Well, you are among millions worldwide doing exactly that right now. But you are probably not an Australian. Alan Austin reports.

michaelwest.com.au

Public housing is central​

Providing moderately-priced public or social housing has been a key government responsibilitysince the reconstruction period following World War I. Some administrations have achieved more than others. Few have failed as badly as the Coalition from 2015 onwards.

Last week the Bureau of Statistics (ABS) released data on housing starts in the private and public sectors, from 1983 to September 2021. Bob Hawke’s Government built an average of 12,563 houses for low-income Australians to rent or buy in each of its eight years. This collapsed to an appalling 4,399 per year through the hapless Howard period when the rich did very nicely while the poor were neglected. The Rudd Government almost doubled that to 8,615. It has been downhill from there.

Abject Coalition failure​

The ABS home starts data and population records enable us to calculate the number of affordable houses built per year by each government. Comparing all prime ministerships over the last 30 years, we find the Coalition has consistently failed in this area, with the Turnbull and Morrison period by far the worst.

View attachment 24196

"The Coalition Government could easily have alleviated the housing shortage which is the fundamental cause of the price hikes. Estimates of the sums the Coalition allowed wealthy enterprises to rort through the shonky JobKeeper scheme are now around $27 billion. That could have provided 300,000 low-cost homes and greatly boosted employment in the process."

House prices skyrocket and social housing collapses under the Coalition

Under the current Coalition Government, provision of public housing has fallen to a nadir and house prices are soaring, as Alan Austin reports.

independentaustralia.net

I agree with this post 100%. But I also this topic needs to be linked to population growth as well. As currently we have a perfect storm with record amounts of immigrants entering our shores.

More public housing also needs to directed to regional communities as well to keep these communities thriving.

 

[DavidSSS]

Large MNCs try to minimise profits in countries that have higher tax rates and they are largely successful despite a lot of effort by tax authorities looking at royalty payments, transfer pricing and thin capitalisation (as examples). Not many MNCs make large taxable profits in Australia.

And this is why we have payroll tax. Employees can't avoid tax, and as a result, companies can't hide employees. Payroll tax gets a lot of criticism, but the reason it exists is that it is damned difficult to avoid.

DS

 

[22nd Man]

If you look at the price to earnings ratio the markets should fall. The question is more whether the markets will be propped up if they start to wobble. Interest rate cuts may not fix the problem but quantitative easing can. They've done it before, I see no reason they will stop.

As for companies, they are a separate legal person, this is not an opinion, it is a legal fact. If they were not a separate legal person then the owners (shareholders) would have liability for any losses made. Can't have one without the other (you can change the terminology but it amounts to the same thing). I know most people won't agree with me on franking credits, I understand the arguments, I just disagree with them. Worth remembering that the following countries have franking credits or equivalent (generally referred to as imputation): Australia, Canada, Chile, Korea, Mexico and New Zealand. Not many countries do this. Also, the following countries used to have dividend imputation but no longer do: UK, Ireland, Germany, Singapore, Italy, Finland, France, Norway and Malaysia. Most countries do not do this, only a very small number of countries have some sort of dividend imputation.

Capital gains tax discounts are a joke. Apart from the fact that rentiers get a tax break over those who actually work, think about this in the context of equities. You buy shares in Company A on the market - you make a profit and, if you own the shares for more than 12 months then you get a tax discount of 50%. The argument is that you contributed to the company and your investment was for a sustained period of time, but that is complete bollocks. Unless you buy the shares in a public offer, you contributed nothing to the company. 100% of the purchase price went to the person selling the shares and 0% to the company. There is an argument for a capital gains discount for shares bought as part of a public offer, ie where the company is either doing an initial public offer or is raising capital, otherwise it is BS.

If the excrement hits the cooling device I suspect it will be after the US election as everything will be done to prevent it before then.

I wouldn't so much be pointing to politicians being idiots, I would more point to mainstream economics being idiocy.

DS

People who “actually” work can also own shares. Being employed and owning share aren’t mutually exclusive.
the great bulk of Australian shares are owned by super funds and they receive the credits too, bumping up the returns of the super of those who actually work.
Or are you arguing no one or no entity deserves this?

At the moment capital gains are added to income and taxed accordingly
My solution would be to tax income on one scale and cap gains on another (or allow cap gains to be spread over the number of years the asset was owned, not taxed in the year the gain was crystallised.