State League Recruits

[Streak]

No doubt, but it's not that simple. Every club passed up the chance to take those two numerous times. If you knew how Barlow was going to go in the AFL, you would have used a top 10 pick on him. The fact no one did says recruiting mature age guys isn't a simple science.

Barlow is an interesting point for mine. One of the fundamental traits you need in players not drafted in the main draft is very high/extreme work ethic. The stories about Barlow and the out of hours work he did to make it are extraordinary, but I believe similar to Nathan Foley, another non main draft player. Sam Mitchell.

Robbie Nahas is another example. Only really starting to show what he can do after realising the work it would take to make it.

 

[Harry]

we would rather extend the contract of a jackson, edwards, white, farmer, mcguane etc than take a punt on someone dominating state league. turn the tables, chances are none of these would dominate state league.

 

[Scoop]

Seriously, a switched-on recruiting department could go into this coming off-season with a dozen places on its list. It could then use the first 3-4 picks on 18 year-olds, pick up a quality player via the PSD by offering a substantial contract to someone who is a bit starved for opportunity somewhere, maybe swap a player for another. They could then shop around the various State Leagues for the rest.

It looks to me like those leagues are full of defenders of all sizes, small forwards, ruckmen and Key position players and hard-at-it midfielders just looking for an opportunity. Many of them have played seniors every week for two years and dominated while AFL-listed “Project players” can’t get a kick in their club’s reserves side.

Ed Curnow, Cam Pederson, Daniel Nicholson, Tendai Mzungi and Michael Hibberd were all available to anyone with a late/PSD/early rookie pick last year. Freo raided the VFL for Barlow and Silvagni the previous year and Crameri came out of the VFL that year as well.

They are out there. How hard can it be to find them? Make a list that includes the first five place-getters in the Liston, the Sandover and the Magarey and the three best players in each Grand Final and start there.

For god's sake why can part time back yard talent spotters like TOT, Leysy, Evo, Harry, Me and others see this and our big time can't?

It's spot on. It just reeks of a bit of homework, local knowledge and having the knackers to take a punt on untried talent instead of holding on and hoping that players magically change what they are. I was keen on taking Micheal Hibberd with a late pick last year and look what he has done.

Nahas won an award as the best young player in the VFL the year before we drafted him, Nason had played a few senior games in the SANFL and mainly spent his time in the reserves.

By contrast, Barlow is a Liston Trophy winner, Curnow broke his leg mid-season but still finished high up in voting, Krakouer was BOG in the WAFL Grand Final.

If a player is doing well in the state leagues, chances are he may be able to take the next step, all things being equal. Once on a list he will train professionally, which should help.

If a player is not doing well in the minor leagues, where is the evidence that he can take a step up? It is the same situation for a player in the TAC Cup who was not selected for the Under 18 state team or figured highly in B&Fs at his club, despite playing most of the games. Where is the evidence he can step up next year?

Too many recruiters, not just ours btw, will use a late pick on a player with "upside" and ignore the players who are smacking him around every week in the state leagues.

Good work TOT, just keeping banging out this stuff and hope the mindsets change.

I would happily cop losing if I knew the club was trying to get better and not copping the rubbish that is being put out there at the minute.

 

[casper68]

there may be too much common sense in this thread.Why does it sound so easy and our football club make it seem so hard?

 

[Scoop]

Why does it sound so easy and our football club make it seem so hard?

Don't ge me wrong Casper, I don't think it is a super easy process but I do think that we can be much more aggressive in trying to get better. We can also look at getting & using as many picks as possible to improve quicker.

 

[Disco08]

To take Hibberd (I liked the idea of him too) last year we would have had to delist another player. Do we know that any were unconctrated to enable that? Otherwise we had to choose between leaving one of the ND picks (wasn't the Derickxz pick pretty much what TOT is talking about?) on the table or taking him ahead of Houli. On what's happened so far, I'd rather have Houli.

 

[TOT70]

It is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. There have been plenty of VFL stars who have been unable to make the step up and it is usually because they have serious weaknesses that will not allow them to succeed at AFL level. A player may be very strong for example and this makes up for his lack of leg speed at a lower level but when he jumps up to AFL, everyone is as strong as he is, making his lack of pace a severe problem. That is where professional recruiters earn their money and make their reps.

Nonetheless, suppose an 18 year-old is 198cm and weighs 80 Kg, he will obviously not be able to compete with Darren Jolley and David Hille for a very long time. Nor will he outmark Jonathan Brown any time soon. If he has dominated during his TAC Cup year then he may be worth a shot straightaway becasue someone will snaffle him up if you don't.

If he has only shown a few glimpses here and there, why on earth would you put him on an AFL list? At best, he should go on a watch list so you can see how he develops over the next 3 seasons or maybe you try to get him down to your VFL affiliate at some and keep an eye on him that way.

With the two new teams coming in, more players are required. It stands to resaon that the difference between State League and AFL will be less pronounced. We know this is the case anyway because large numbers of AFL-listed players regularly play reserves and others can't get a gig in the stronger midfields or get smacked when their team plays Port Melbourne, who don't have any AFL players. This happens nearly every week, so they most have a couple of decent players. There must be better players in VFL/SANFL/WAFL teams, especially the stronger ones.

 

[Streak]

There are some pretty damn sharpish players running around in the WAFL at the moment, quite a few with ex-AFL experience.

Beau Wilks, for example at my beloved Claremont, a big guy who will probably get looked at come draft time. Another is Luke BLackwell, who has been tearing it up now for ytwo seasons, and looks a certainty for this year's sandover.

My concern is whether we even have a scout over here looking at these guys.

 

[TOT70]

To take Hibberd (I liked the idea of him too) last year we would have had to delist another player. Do we know that any were unconctrated to enable that? Otherwise we had to choose between leaving one of the ND picks (wasn't the Derickxz pick pretty much what TOT is talking about?) on the table or taking him ahead of Houli. On what's happened so far, I'd rather have Houli.

Hibberd is just an example but.....
we could have traded a pick to GC and pre-listed him
we could have taken him with the pick used on Derickx and rookie listed Derickx
we could have taken him at the pick used on MacDonald.

Both those players may have fallen to rookie picks. If not, then such is life. Every pick that any team makes is a coulda/shoulda/woulda.

I'll get back to the point. If a guy is dominant in a good team at the State level, then he has a good chance of success. Derickx played every game for the losing Grand Finalist, so he was a solid investment on that basis.

 

[TOT70]

There are some pretty damn sharpish players running around in the WAFL at the moment, quite a few with ex-AFL experience.

Beau Wilks, for example at my beloved Claremont, a big guy who will probably get looked at come draft time. Another is Luke BLackwell, who has been tearing it up now for ytwo seasons, and looks a certainty for this year's sandover.

My concern is whether we even have a scout over here looking at these guys.

They found Derickx there. He was very low profile so there must be some level of presence.

It is fairly clear that our recruiting is miles ahead of where it once was.

 

[Disco08]

Hibberd is just an example but.....
we could have traded a pick to GC and pre-listed him
we could have taken him with the pick used on Derickx and rookie listed Derickx
we could have taken him at the pick used on MacDonald.

Both those players may have fallen to rookie picks. If not, then such is life. Every pick that any team makes is a coulda/shoulda/woulda.

I'll get back to the point. If a guy is dominant in a good team at the State level, then he has a good chance of success. Derickx played every game for the losing Grand Finalist, so he was a solid investment on that basis.

What age would you be setting as the cutoff? Many of the dominant players in state leagues are 25+, should we be looking at them regardless of age?

 

[TOT70]

What age would you be setting as the cutoff? Many of the dominant players in state leagues are 25+, should we be looking at them regardless of age?

I have absolutely no idea. I'm just some schmuck who posts some of his thoughts on an internet forum whenever work gets too boring, not the second coming of Graeme Richmond. The experts can make those calls.

 

[Disco08]

Sorry, I just thought it was an interesting and fairly crucial aspect of looking at players from state leagues.

 

[Scoop]

There are some pretty damn sharpish players running around in the WAFL at the moment, quite a few with ex-AFL experience.

Beau Wilks, for example at my beloved Claremont, a big guy who will probably get looked at come draft time. Another is Luke BLackwell, who has been tearing it up now for ytwo seasons, and looks a certainty for this year's sandover.

My concern is whether we even have a scout over here looking at these guys.

Blackwell is one that I would take post 50.

I think we are better equipped for WAFL scouting.

Who else do you like Streaker?

 

[TOT70]

Sorry, I just thought it was an interesting and fairly crucial aspect of looking at players from state leagues.

I was just being silly.

Podsiadly was 28 when he finally got his chance. Has he let the Cats down? There is far too much of an obsession with youth.

 

[TOT70]

An older player like Pods obviously will never have a ten year career, which seems to be every internet's expert's definition of a successful draft pick.

Greg Miller talked about Joel Selwood at one of the draft nights and he said something along the lines of: "We really like him but we are worried about his knees, If his injures are degenerative then he will only play for five years.”

He didn’t get the chance to make a call on Selwood because he went before Richmond’s pick. I certainly don’t want to jinx the player at all because he deserves every accolade that he gets but if his career was to end next week, would you take his five years?

Getting back to Pods, I hate these comparisons made in hindsight but we could have taken him with any of the picks that we used on Morrison, Weller, Archibald, Limbach, Hughes, Kingsley and Putt. Every team passed him by for years so it is really unfair to point this out in a Richmond-only context but I'm just making a point.

 

[TOT70]

And another thing while I'm ranting and waiting at the office for a phone call and can't be fagged starting a new task.

One thing I really hate reading on PRE is the notion that a club like Richmond is not in the correct window of opportunity so should not try to recruit players like Darren Jolley, Luke Ball, Hamish McIntosh or, shudder, shudder, Brendan Fevola. These players should only be recruited by teams who are in their "window."

What a load of bunkum!

If we had recruited quality players like those, instead of the plodders that we have ended up with, we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

Here's another example. Richmond traded traded Ottens to Geelong for picks 12 and 16. At the same time, Sydney used pick 15 on Jolly. Which of those three teams got reamed that day?

Geez, that phone call better come soon.

 

[Disco08]

Given the quality of our list at the time, I'd take the picks every time. The fact they didn't work out is irrelevant.

 

[TOT70]

Given the quality of our list at the time, I'd take the picks every time. The fact they didn't work out is irrelevant.

Well, there you go. I'd take the good player every time, given the quality of our list at the time.

There is actually no rule in the AFL that says Richmond should never recruit a good player.

How many players of the standard of Darren Jolly do you need before you can call yourself a good team? Ten, twelve, fifteen?

If it is 12 and your recruit one, you are 8.5% of the way there!

 

[Disco08]

Yeah, but in another draft those two picks could have been Rioli and Taylor. That's the gamble. Good teams are built on good draft picks and the only way to achieve sustained success is to embrace the draft by trying to maximise the number of premium picks you have.